About necessity of having a true Teacher

[A.A.Khokhlov]

When a person starts studying Daoism the first question he/she would have is – where to study Daoism from?

 

In modern world there is a standard answer for that: read, read and read. First in the Internet later in books and probably some even more rare sources. But the books are limitless – more and more are getting written now. And very often different books point us to completely different directions. But human’s life is limited and person has to choose which way to go and in case of mistakes in choice there are not much more tries available.

 

In Daoism there is an official collection of Daoist texts called 道藏 Daozang - Taoist Canon. Famous Patriarchs and Immortals of the past have left us their advices and instructions in their writings. In Daoist world Daozang is regarded as an authoritative source for all who would like to know the truth about Daoism. And the best choice (among other variants of reading) would be to study directly what Patriarchs have written to us (to start studying Immortals’ texts is step #1).

 

If a person is persevering enough and comes to studying original (or translated) texts from Daozang the next perfect step would be to find what have famous Immortals recommended to start practice with (to find this would be the step #2). Then he/she would be quite surprised to find that the advice is not “to read the texts more and more”. But to find a True Teacher instead.

 

In this article we would like to help a beginner to pass these 2 important steps described above by providing a several quotes from original texts of famous Immortals of the past.

 

 

1. Patriarch Liu Huayang:

 

虽有智贤无所从入

yet you be smart and talented but you wouldn't have a thing to start (enter the teaching).

 

此馀苦心求师悟道之本愿也 

It is my vow (yearning) in untiring seek for Teacher and realization of Dao.

 

My (Wu Chongxu - Liu Huayang’s School student) commentary: Yet the person is talented he/she would be unable to start the practice him/herself. Patriarch Liu suggest a student to follow his example in “untiring seek for Teacher and realization of Dao”.

 

 

2. Patriarch Zhang Boduan:

 

饶君聪慧过颜闵，不遇真师莫强猜。

Even if your abundant wisdom surpasses the knowledge of Yan and Min [1],

Without meeting a true Teacher, you shouldn't just stubbornly make guesses.

 

只为金丹无口诀，教君何处结灵胎。

Only practicing "golden elixir" without a verbal teaching,

From what place would you learn how to conceive the spiritual fetus?

 

 

[1]  Yan and Min were the smartest students of Confuci: 顏閔 (顏閔, 颜闵) 孔子 弟子 顏回 和 閔損 的並稱。

 

 

3. Daoist  翁葆光 Weng Baoguang's commentary to Zhang Boduan's words:

 

紫陽真人悟真篇註疏  南宋翁葆光注 

饒君聰慧過顏閔，不遇師傳莫強猜。

只為丹經無口訣，教君何處結靈胎。

 

註曰：千經萬論，惟布枝條。至道不繁，獨傳心印。未遇真師，徒勞口耳。此道非真師口訣，雖有顏閔之聰慧，亦不可強自猜度也。

 

Commentary (of Daoist Weng Baoguang) says: Thousands of canons and numberless treatises is just a publishing of branches of external [2]. While attaining the Dao is not difficult, it is solely a transmission of a heart seal [3]. If you haven’t met a true Teacher, you would just vainly tire your mouth and ears – nothing more! About this Dao, without verbal instructions of a true Teacher, even having a mind of Yan and Min, yet impossible to somehow guess by yourself.

 

[2] Branches without the trunk, meaning external (supplementary) part without internal (base).

[3] Transmission from heart to heart.

 

 

4. Patriarch Xue Daoguang, 3rd Patriarch of the Southern Neidan School (where Zhang Boduan was the first Patriarch):

 

經名：紫陽真人悟真篇三註。五卷，北宋張伯端原著，南宋薛道光、陸墅，元陳致虛注。

道光曰：千經萬論，唯布枝條。至道不繁，獨傳心印，未遇真師，強猜不得。

子野曰：非師口訣真要，則從何處而下手。

上陽子曰：九流百家，一應藝術，皆可留之紙上，或可以智慧猜曉而知，唯獨金丹一事，非得真師逐節指示，不可強以意會。

 

Patriarch Xue Daoguang’s commentary: Thousands of canons and numberless treatises is just a publishing of branches of external. While attaining the Dao is not difficult, it is solely a transmission of a heart seal. If you haven’t met a true Teacher – even guessing diligently you would be unable to guess.

 

Patriarch Lu Shu’s commentary: Without a true basement of verbal instructions of a Teacher, what way would you start the practice (i.e. you wouldn’t be able to start the practice)?

 

Patriarch Chen Zhixui’s commentary: It is possible to save in a paper thinkers of different philosophical schools and all the arts, so it would be possible by means of mind guess and cognize it (them). And the single thing – the golden elixir, without a consistent gradual instructions of true Teacher, is impossible forcedly (somehow) understand by means of thought.

 

 

5. Xiao Tingzhi, famous Daoist of Southern Song Dynasty (has written many Daoist treatises) quotes Zhang Boduan and his Teacher Liu Haichan:

 

玉筍靈篇，學者之十迷九八，聖師口口，歷代心心，若非心傳口授，縱使三傑之才，十哲之智，百端揣度，亦終不能下手，結就聖胎矣。所謂：饒君聰慧過顏閔，不遇明師莫強猜，只為金丹無口訣，教君何處結靈胎。劉海蟾詩日：此道迥昭彰，如何亂揣量。金丹之道，若不遇真師，實難知之矣。

 

What about holy books of talented people, out of 10 learners 9 or 8 are confusing [themselves]. Wise Teachers transmitted from mouth to mouth (verbally), for centuries, from heart to heart. If you have no heart transmission and verbal teaching - then even if you are talented as 3 heroes [4] and smart as 10 sages [5] and know everything - you as well would not be able to start the practice, create and complete spiritual fetus. It is what called (that famous quote from Zhang Boduan):

 

Even if your abundant wisdom surpasses the knowledge of Yan and Min, without meeting a true Teacher, you shouldn't just stubbornly make guesses. Only practicing "golden elixir" without a verbal teaching, from what place would you learn how to conceive the spiritual fetus?

 

Patriarch Lui Haichan said in verses: 

This Dao is extremely clear, so what is the reason to muddy it (turn into chaos) by thinking? 

If you do not meet a true Teacher, truly impossible to understand the Dao of Golden Elixir.

 

 

[4] 3 heroes 三傑 sānjié  –  a) associates of Liu Bang, Han dynasty; associates of Liu Bei, founders of Shu kingdom, Three Kingdoms epoch.

[5] 10 sages – students of Confuci.

 

 

6. 修真十書 Ding Yuan treatise about impossibility to understand without a Teacher:

 

First comes the same quote from Zhang Boduan: 

 

饒君聰慧過顏閔，不遇師傳莫強猜。只為丹經無口訣，教君何處結靈胎。

 

And then:

 

袁公輔曰：千經萬論，止載修丹事理，至於下手結交，火侯幽微，非遇師親授，縱才過顏閔，則不可曉。

 

In thousands of canons and numberless treatises only principles of practice in cultivation of the elixir are being recorded, what about transmission of the beginning practice and subtleties of the periods of fire – without meeting a true teacher even if you surpass Yan and Min in talents, yet you wouldn't be able to know (understand).

 

 

7. Treatise of famous Li Daochun of Yuan's dynasty is saying that without a teacher it is a plain silliness:

 

中和集  元李道純撰

若不遇真師點化，皆妄為矣。

 

If you won't meet a guidance from true teacher - all of it are stupid actions.

 

 

8. Patriarch Lü Dongbin’s treatise:

 

悟真篇》云：饒君聰慧過顏閔，不遇真人莫強猜。蓋丹經所陳，或假物以明理，或設象以寓意，名義不同，學者卒然讀之，莫不有望洋之欺。且以五行言之，或日金木，或日金土，或日水火，或日金火，或日金水，或日木火，或日水土，使人心目俱眩

 

In the beginning there are the words of Patriarch Zhang Boduan (from the previous quote). Then – that there are a lot of stuff in texts (this is compared to the ocean) and learner is [only] getting confused by such a studies. Further there are some alchemy terms and saying that souls of people are getting more and more confused because of it…

 

 

9. Patriarch Ge Hong, Baopuzi:

 

吾非生而知之，又非少而信之，始者蒙蒙，亦如子耳，既觀奧祕之宏修，而恨離困之不早也。

五經之事，注說炳露，初學之徒，猶可不解。豈況金玉札，神仙之經，至要之言，又多不書。

登壇歃血，乃傳口訣，

苟非其人，雖裂地連城，金璧滿堂，不妄以示之。

夫指深歸遠，雖得其書而不師受，猶仰不見首，俯不知跟

所謂不知而作也。

 

I am by no means a person, endowed with inborn knowledge of it (alchemy) and it also may not be said that I believed in it (alchemy) being very young. At the beginning I was the same immature and ignorant as you. But when I began to observe the great mystery of powerful cultivation methods I regretted that I was released from all that difficulties this late. In deeds of studying 5 canons explanations and commentaries assist much, irrigating them (canons) like a pure dew. But for beginners much remains unclear yet. It is even more true applied to the golden plates and jade pages where the Teachings of Immortality are written on. Besides of that a lot of the most important instructions are not written there at all.

 

The Altar is being build, lips are being moistened with blood and only then, after vow of keeping silence is sealed this way, secret instructions are being transmitted from mouth to mouth.

If it happens that a person is not suitable for transmitting him these mysteries even if he gives (to alchemy teacher) huge lands and entire lines of cities, fill up halls with gold and jade, he wouldn't get a thing (teaching) anyway. (no one would teach him recklessly).

 

Since these instructions point to the depths and lead far away, so even if to write them down, yet a person who haven't received them from his Teacher would understand nothing from them: he looks up - and wouldn't see head, he looks down - wouldn't see feet.

It is said right about this: "Not knowing, yet doing".

 

 

10. 吕祖全书    Complete compendium of writings of Patriarch Lü (Lü Dongbin)

 

自古圣贤佛仙，罔非从师授业，而后悟道。

书曰：『能自得师者王，谓人莫己若者亡。好问则裕，自用则小。

帝王且然，况凡民乎？人惟自见自是，所以得少为足，不能虚以受人。不知人匪生知，盖由师传。

 

三教虽殊，尊师则一。即吾门修炼，若不亲受真师口诀，纵熟习丹书，焉能得知切实下手工夫！

虽极力施功，决无成就。

 

Since ancient times there were no [cases] of Sages, Buddhas or Immortals haven't learnt from Teachers, only after that (being taught by a Teacher) they attained the Dao. Texts say: a one who is able to attain a Teacher - is Wang (emperor, pefect Ruler), and a one who says that no one could be compared to him (i.e. saying he is a super-genius) would be deposed (die). 

If it is true for Emperors - then what to say about ordinary people!?

 

Not hesitating to ask (for instruction) - [you] are enriching, [but] only relying on your own abilities - [you are] coming down (weakening). 

 

People think of themselves as the only being right, because of this only few are suitable (for studying Dao) and it is forbidden to teach [not suitable] people in vain. Not knowing of vicious inborn qualities of (specific) people it is necessary to transmit through Teachers.

 

Yet Three Teachings (Daoism, Buddhism, Confucianism) have differences but they follow esteeming Teachers (i.e. they esteem Teachers) the same way. And in cultivation by My School if there is no personal transmission of verbal instructions from true Teacher, even if cleverly learn alchemic books, from where would [a one] learn the true practice of initial work?

Yet they would work very hard in no case they would achieve success.

 

 

== End of quotes from texts. ==

 

 

Attentive reader could ask now: “But Patriarchs don’t seem to say that you need to start your study with finding a Teacher – why do you quote these words here as the first step?”

 

Actually every person has his/her own individual way. This way can start with qigong or martial arts (as it was in my case) or anything else. It can go left and right, up and down or even loop sometimes. People are different so if you feel you need to study something (no matter in Daoism or Buddhism or let’s say physics) – it is absolutely ok and may be very useful and for you.

 

And finding a true Teacher is also not a kind of task that would be easy to do. It may require some preliminary research to be able at least to distinguish between true and false teachers and schools. Since ancient times and up to nowadays there always have been numerous false teachers who claimed they know everything. And those who have fondly believed them ended their lifes same as ordinary people...

 

But maybe somewhere later, when a person becomes settled up on his/her way to the Dao of Ancient Immortals and is ready to start the Practice of initial work – these words of Patriarchs would become extremely useful and meaningful to him / her. Same important these words would be to any person who would like to start Ancient Dao Practice as soon as possible.

 

So the answer to the question “why do you quote these words here as the first step?” is – because it actually is a first step in the Practice of attaining Dao of Ancient Immortals.

 

 

2016-12-20

A.A.Khokhlov

[Ormus]

Dear A.A.Khokhlov,

 

I agree that someone who whant to study Nei Dan need True Teacher and secret oral instructions Koujue.This is true also for other aspects of Daoism(like in religious-ritual Daoism).

 

Here in the text point 8 is strange how it is Lu Dongbin work which mention Zhang Boduan when we know that Master Zhang comes later in time and generation?

 

Point 9 Ge Hong speaks about Wai Dan(laboratory Alchemy) but I agree the same rules except blood are for Nei Dan.

 

Few Nei Dan Masters(of many) with whom I speak say one importaint point .....and this is: True Teacher is the one who realised Golden Elixir,more precisly above it secret Purple Elixir and who have Yang Shen and stay here on earht to teach students.All others are not nor can be True Teacher because their still work on themselfs and their work is not finished,so they cant teach others because in this way blind leading the blind.How many are there such Teachers?I dont know I didnt meet anyone from that level.But I hear that even in China there are maybe few of them.

And when I think about this it is correct because how someone posing as Master is to teach others and he himself still continue to transform Qi to Shen for example?And we see that all or almost all of Masters present in the west but also in China are still working on themselfs.What is to happen if such Master die by accident?Students left alone and cant go further,or if student somehow come to the level of Master by years,and Master stagnates on the same level.How student is to go further?

So only realised ones with Yang Shen are True Teachers,others can be considered helpers or instructiors but not a Master.

 

Our second biggest problem today is money......more precisly huge money that Masters ask.One of the highest authority of Daoism and Master of 1 level who live in USA(he dont practice Nei Dan but he know related older inner practices) told me in personal conversation that real Daoist Masters are not to ask you for 1 $ to teach you.It is free and it is only for accepted students who become like second son to the Master.Student can give on itself money and other valuables as exchenge of Virtue,but Master if accet student cant ask for money.He also say me that real Masters only have few students,and that today trend to have hundred students are just selling Daoism for dolars and all this is not traditional nor Master can observe and test all them nor to make clouse relationship with all this people.

 

Ormus

[Astral Monk]

People get deceived easily. Even rational, logical, objective people.

 

So finding a 'true teacher' is just a matter of luck? of fortune or destiny?

 

Because as was said many ppl who felt they had excellent teachers died and lived normal lives.

 

Ppl can only 'teach' what they know and have achieved. Now, since it is not allowed to share comments on peoples personal results in neidan, how can anyone know what their 'teacher' has achieved? And if a teacher has achievement, how do they demonstrate this to leave no doubt? Because immortality cant be 'demonstrated' except by out living everyone (self demonstration).

 

Would-be teachers need to lead with RESULTS, otherwise we have NO WAY to judge them or the veracity of their claim to be teachers in the first place.

 

This is why ppl ask the age and appearance of neidan folks--if the claims of neidan are true, SHOW US; if no one to show us, then how did they fail or why not yet succeed? Or, neidan is false in its claims.

 

8)

[Astral Monk]

Teachers are important, but just as important is for student to go beyond teachers. If they dont, what is value of teaching?

 

8)

[Taoist Texts]

Point 9 Ge Hong speaks about Wai Dan(laboratory Alchemy) but I agree the same rules except blood are for Nei Dan.

 

 

No blood, no count.

[sillybearhappyhoneyeater]

Hi, Dr. Khokhlov,  thank you for making this very clear post.  It is very important for the new student to have a qualified teacher, but in the case of the western student, it is even more difficult, because of the lack of native language skills in Chinese.   My own teacher said once that he thinks most people will find it almost impossible to study nei dan because of the complexity of its theory and linguistic problems facing both westerners and young Chinese, as well as the lack of qualified teachers available today.  Later he rephrased it and said that it will be very difficult, and anyone wanting to study nei dan will have to work very hard and make big sacrifices.

I'm glad to see someone as learned as yourself sharing with us here and wish to thank you from the bottom of my heart for your generous translation of these materials.

Best wishes to you and your future success!

 

Sincerely,

Robert J. Coons

[Arkady Shadursky]

[..]

 

And if a teacher has achievement, how do they demonstrate this to leave no doubt? Because immortality cant be 'demonstrated' except by out living everyone (self demonstration).

 

Would-be teachers need to lead with RESULTS, otherwise we have NO WAY to judge them or the veracity of their claim to be teachers in the first place.

 

[...]

 

Yes this is very good post! Thank you.

 

Actually you are right, there is no way to make it absolutely clear if the Teacher is true or not, except following him and achieving the alchemy results in your own experience. In your own body. Only then your doubts go away. For example when your hair becomes black again. So it not like your Teacher should demonstrate something to you , but you supposed to achieve the result by following Teacher's recommendations and confirm the School and its methods with your own experience.

 

As A.A.Khokhlov said treatises are great for beginner (and advanced) students as the ultimate checking tool for the School and the Teacher. If "teachers" are being easily confused when asked simple questions like about WuXing cycle or Bagua sequence you can make you own guess about their level.

 

The Head of DaoDe center - D.A.Artemyev has had to search for the True Teacher for more than 25 years. And he has met about 200 different Masters with extraordinary abilities, till he finally found The Teacher who can really teach the True alchemy. And all that with perfect knowledge of Chinese and ancient Chinese languages.

 

So I like to believe that I'm really lucky one who can receive transmission here in Russia in my native lands. Sometimes I think I'm too lucky 

---

Best Regards,

Arkady

[KuroShiro]

 

For example when your hair becomes black again.

 

 

Gray hair that returns to original colour?

[effilang]

And if a teacher has achievement, how do they demonstrate this to leave no doubt? Because immortality cant be 'demonstrated' except by out living everyone (self demonstration).

 

Would-be teachers need to lead with RESULTS, otherwise we have NO WAY to judge them or the veracity of their claim to be teachers in the first place.

 

Physical Immortality is one purported effect of neidan in houtian xiulian, but there are many accompanying skills, which a true teacher should be able to demonstrate.

 

I directed this question at AAK some time ago, but have not received a reply.

Here is some background: http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/42697-yuxianpai-wuliupai-tradition-doctrine/?p=724254

 

Wuliu Pai, as other schools, claim to develop physical immortality and AAK recently stated that the physical body which is houtian jing, qi and shen is converted to Yang Shen; essentially going against what a lot of the Daoist literature claims; in that the postnatal cannot generate the prenatal.

 

So I'd like to ask a very fundamental question and simple question once again, not only to Wuliu Pai, but to all schools who claim that the impermanent physical body can be absorbed into and converted to Yang Shen, so that there is no longer a dying body present, but only the undying immortal body - or that the physical body can be made to last forever (immortality).

 

AAK claimed that they age in reverse and get younger instead of older, never get sick and escape death.

 

Wuliu Pai from my understanding is around 500 years old, again, please correct me if I'm wrong as I'm not familiar with your history. In this time, could we safely assume that you may have had at least 250 students, on the basis of around a 100 years of life with 50 students per century? - Maybe you have more students, maybe less. I am just using this as a crutch to illustrate my point.

 

So here is my question:

 

To support these claims in lieu of any demonstrations, in those ~500 years, can you point to any of your masters or their master's masters, whom are an embodiment of these achievements and are still alive today?

 

What are their names and where can we meet them?

 

There are pretty much two possibilities IMHO:

 

1. What AAK says is true and the masters of the school, going back to its inception are still alive today and teaching and have escaped death and achieved physical immortality.

 

OR

 

2. All the masters and their masters died an ordinary death and were either buried or cremated, indicating that the physical immortality claimed in their schools which supports the notion that the physical body can be prevented from dying and decaying, is actually false?

 

How does Wuliu Pai reconcile these beliefs with the history of their school?

Surely at least one of the Wuliu Pai masters must have achieved these things if they are teaching others about it?

 

What sort of argument can you give us AAK to substantiate these statements?

 

Gray hair that returns to original colour?

 

Gray hair returning to its original colour is not an indication of physical immortality.

The person will still die and be buried with their non-white hair.

 

It's my understanding that the IRF4 Gene is responsible for melanin regulation in hair:

http://www.genecards.org/cgi-bin/carddisp.pl?gene=IRF4

 

Gene therapy will soon enough be able to change the hair colour to anything you like without dye; from gray to ginger.

 

Everyone will still die... It is the nature of all things born of Taiji; they are bound by the law of Yin and Yang; and so they are bound by death and decay. This is why in spiritual cultivation we focus on the cultivation of the immortal spirit only by using prenatal energy.

[Ormus]

This is interesting topic about aims of true Nei Dan regarding bodys.

 

For sure we know that Nei Dan produce Immortal Spiritual body(Yang Shen) which all schools claim.

 

Some schools say it is posible to have Immortal physical body too,but some say it is not posible and it is not aim of Nei Dan.

 

Answers is in the level of secret instructions that school have.For example you are not to find so easy Nei Dan school which have secret of Purple Elixir which is the highest level of Nei Dan,nor you are to find method how to embody just formed Yang Shen in physical body to preserve it......this fusion of two bodys is great secret.

 

As we know if we read hagiographies of famous Immortals of the past they all have physical Immortal body and they also can ascend with it in day light......some cant do it at first try but must perform first Shijie....death by simulation with the fake corpse to trick spirits of Heaven using talisman and ritual and then to ascend.

 

Some Daoist Masters because of this claim that Wai Dan(laboratory Alchemy) is suprime over Nei Dan because of this,you have Tang Shen but also physical Immortal body and you can choose how and when to ascend and in which body.Read Immortal Master Ge Hong and all is to be clear.

 

Ormus

[KuroShiro]

Physical Immortality is one purported effect of neidan in houtian xiulian, but there are many accompanying skills, which a true teacher should be able to demonstrate.

 

I directed this question at AAK some time ago, but have not received a reply.

Here is some background: http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/42697-yuxianpai-wuliupai-tradition-doctrine/?p=724254

 

Wuliu Pai, as other schools, claim to develop physical immortality and AAK recently stated that the physical body which is houtian jing, qi and shen is converted to Yang Shen; essentially going against what a lot of the Daoist literature claims; in that the postnatal cannot generate the prenatal.

 

So I'd like to ask a very fundamental question and simple question once again, not only to Wuliu Pai, but to all schools who claim that the impermanent physical body can be absorbed into and converted to Yang Shen, so that there is no longer a dying body present, but only the undying immortal body - or that the physical body can be made to last forever (immortality).

 

AAK claimed that they age in reverse and get younger instead of older, never get sick and escape death.

 

Wuliu Pai from my understanding is around 500 years old, again, please correct me if I'm wrong as I'm not familiar with your history. In this time, could we safely assume that you may have had at least 250 students, on the basis of around a 100 years of life with 50 students per century? - Maybe you have more students, maybe less. I am just using this as a crutch to illustrate my point.

 

So here is my question:

 

To support these claims in lieu of any demonstrations, in those ~500 years, can you point to any of your masters or their master's masters, whom are an embodiment of these achievements and are still alive today?

 

What are their names and where can we meet them?

 

There are pretty much two possibilities IMHO:

 

1. What AAK says is true and the masters of the school, going back to its inception are still alive today and teaching and have escaped death and achieved physical immortality.

 

OR

 

2. All the masters and their masters died an ordinary death and were either buried or cremated, indicating that the physical immortality claimed in their schools which supports the notion that the physical body can be prevented from dying and decaying, is actually false?

 

How does Wuliu Pai reconcile these beliefs with the history of their school?

Surely at least one of the Wuliu Pai masters must have achieved these things if they are teaching others about it?

 

What sort of argument can you give us AAK to substantiate these statements?

 

 

Would also like to hear more about this.

 

 

 

 

Gray hair returning to its original colour is not an indication of physical immortality.

The person will still die and be buried with their non-white hair.

 

Indeed, what about "physical immortality" as talking about living to 150-250 years old?

 

 

 

Gene therapy will soon enough be able to change the hair colour to anything you like without dye; from gray to ginger.

 

Western medicine seems determined to prolong our life to about 100-130 years. This seems to be only 20-50 years away.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Some schools say it is posible to have Immortal physical body too,but some say it is not posible and it is not aim of Nei Dan.

 

Can you say which schools?

 

 

Answers is in the level of secret instructions that school have.For example you are not to find so easy Nei Dan school which have secret of Purple Elixir which is the highest level of Nei Dan,nor you are to find method how to embody just formed Yang Shen in physical body to preserve it......this fusion of two bodys is great secret.

 

How do you know it's the highest level?

 

 

As we know if we read hagiographies of famous Immortals of the past they all have physical Immortal body and they also can ascend with it in day light......some cant do it at first try but must perform first Shijie....death by simulation with the fake corpse to trick spirits of Heaven using talisman and ritual and then to ascend.

 

Can this be considered real proof? You're talking about ascending to heaven? There seems to be accounts of this in several cultures throughout the centuries.

 

 

Some Daoist Masters because of this claim that Wai Dan(laboratory Alchemy) is suprime over Nei Dan because of this,you have Tang Shen but also physical Immortal body and you can choose how and when to ascend and in which body.Read Immortal Master Ge Hong and all is to be clear.

 

Can you tell the book in case there's an English translation? Also can you recommend here books that you consider good reading regarding topic "about aims of true Nei Dan regarding bodys"?

 

Thanks.

[dust]

Gray hair returning to its original colour is not an indication of physical immortality.

The person will still die and be buried with their non-white hair.

 

Don't forget: dye before you die!

[Wells]

.

Edited March 2, 2017 by Wells

[Astral Monk]

Interesting. Ive read this a few times recently. How many levels of coloured elixir are there...?

 

 

 

A "purple elixir" which is "above" golden elixir?

Sources?

[Mudfoot]

A "purple elixir" which is "above" golden elixir?

Sources?

What is this "purple elixir" and how is it supposed to be created?

Why is it the "highest level of Nei Dan"?

And which schools have this "highest level of Nei Dan"?

Cantong qi, The Seal of the Unity of the Three, book 1, verse 40. "Then its color changes to purple: the Reverted Elixir, radiant and goding, is attained."

 

This is followed later by "When Metal goes back to its initial nature, then you can call it Reverted Elixir."

 

Pregadio translation.

[SeekerOfHealing]

There is stage above purple elixir. 

[Mudfoot]

According to the Cantong qi, working with nei dan is an inferior way.

[MIchael80]

If neidan is the inferior way.......what is the superior way Mudfoot?

[KuroShiro]

There is stage above purple elixir. 

 

Could you please tell us more?

[SeekerOfHealing]

Could you please tell us more?

 

Most people do not get even basic dan and transformations so there is no need to go into details but its called "Great Emptiness" or "Great Void" then you are above yang shen. 

[Mudfoot]

If neidan is the inferior way.......what is the superior way Mudfoot?

Read the book, I'm just quoting it. Thus on this subject I have no relevant experience to back this up.

 

But I belive it held the opinion that nei dan was too you wei, and that wu wei was superior. It's an old book, might not reflect later versions of nei dan.

 

A wild guess: Maybe the author felt the method of that time focused too much on Ming and not enough on Xing?

Edited December 24, 2016 by Mudfoot

[MIchael80]

Hi Mudfoot!

 

Thanks for the clarification!

 

best

Michael

[dawei]

Read the book, I'm just quoting it. Thus on this subject I have no relevant experience to back this up.

 

But I belive it held the opinion that nei dan was too you wei, and that wu wei was superior. It's an old book, might not reflect later versions of nei dan.

 

A wild guess: Maybe the author felt the method of that time focused too much on Ming and not enough on Xing?

 

I think an example explanation is here:

 

The Esoteric Codex: Alchemy I

[SeekerOfHealing]

Exactly!

[Ormus]

Those who made Purple Elixir can enter and exit Wuji at Will and they have mutiple Yang Shens.

 

Zhouyi Cantog Qi is originaly secret Wai Dan book(in original version still preserved),later 2 redactions try to interpret it as Nei Dan book and this is trend from VIII to XI century when we see formation period of Nei Dan as we know it.Nei Dan emerged as option for those who are not high level society or members of secret societys of Alchemysts and they say it is more safe,but we know that it is not so more safe as there are many dangers also like in laboratory Wai Dan.

 

Wai Dan become dangerous not only in China but also Tibet and India and Europe in that time when secret teachings go underground and then people reading the books try to understand what is Materia Prima and using mutlple materials beacuse they didnt understand secret behind,so many people die and even Emperors.

 

Look what Master Ge Hong write......Wai Dan is superior and he gives recipe and why it is so.

 

Ormus