Xuanming

Opendao, on 18 Aug 2015 - 11:16 AM, said:

…your opinion has no any support nor in texts, nor in Tradition, nor in reality.  ...You disregard any scriptures which contradict your qigong experience...

 

Did you see emptiness in my opinion or just want to deny the realities in you someone pointed out?

 

I am so delighted to hear that you know my Qigong practice.  I thought that you practice Neidan only not practice Qigong.  I love to hear your critics and want to hear more about what is wrong in my Qigong practice.  Which scripture contradicts my Qigong experience?  I am also a Neidan practitioner.  What is wrong in my Neidan practice?  I would greatly appreciate your advice and suggestions.  Please let me know.  Thank you!   

Opendao, on 17 Aug 2015 - 10:07 AM, said:

 

Darling, it seems you completely lost track and don't see the reality any more.

 

Is it yourself evaluation or pointing your finger to Xuanming?  I have not lost track and I do see the reality clearly.  I am a guy and straight and happily married. Can you tell the difference between a guy and a girl?  Thank you for your sweet post, but don’t call me “Darling” again. 

 

Opendao, on 17 Aug 2015 - 10:07 AM, said:

Chao, hoping not to discuss anything with you and your multiple clones again.

 

Why? Because you cannot answer my questions? Do you understand the definition of clone? Who are my clones? 

 

Opendao, on 17 Aug 2015 - 10:07 AM, said:

 

So far you showed no more understanding then Taoist Texts. 

 

Taoist Texts is smart and intelligent.  He is logical and reasonable in conversations if you talk about very specific topics with him.  He certainly has more understanding than me on his field.  I truly admire his talents.  He understands my points, but you don’t.  

 

If you would review your own posts, you may find a lot of projections and assumptions without evidence and references.  For example: 

 

1. Opendao Posted 03 August 2015 - 08:58 PM said:

 

who did you pay, Great Master Hobo?

You're so knowledgeable about frauds, trolls, clones, robbers, "spiritual business" and other money-related things that I cannot avoid strange conclusions... 

 

Where did your strange conclusions came from?  It looks like projections and assumptions without evidence and reference. This is discussion, but like curse.  

 

2. Opendao, on 16 Aug 2015 - 08:48 PM, said:

 

5 lying ladies in one place, speaking crap about Dao, that's really amusing for the Daoist forum.  Shame and nothing sacred. 

 

Who are the 5 lying ladies? I have no idea who you are talking about.  Can you give any examples?  If you cannot provide evidence, again it sounds like just your projection or assumption and shows that you do not respect women. 

 

3.   Opendao, Posted 16 August 2015 - 08:04 PM

 

funny lying lady ))) 

 

Calling names appears to be your way of denying reality and avoiding answering questions.  I wanted to check with you about quantumdragon’s observations from your energy field if she was correct.  You have never answered my simple questions, but you had a huge reaction to my questions.  If it is not true, you should be not triggered by the information quantumdragon shared with us. 

 

From my experiential understanding on energetic and spiritual communications, quantumdragon is an advanced and gifted practitioner.  What happened to her, it was not her fantasy or lie but her observation and energetic and spiritual communications with your own consciousness projection onto her.  It might happen at subconscious or unconscious levels so you were not aware of it.  Have you recalled your mind back to your body since you published the post that day?  Are you aware of your sub-conscious activities that day? 

 

If you do not know how to recall your mind back to your body, or if you were not aware of how your sub-consciousness went to quantumdragon, it is easy for you totally to deny you did visit her and then point your finger at her and say “she is lying or making up some fantasy stories.”  To test if her information is correct or not, one simple thing is to check with you.  That’s why I wanted to ask some questions regarding whether her observation on your energy field is correct or not, so that we can have a conclusion.   Instead of working together and collaborating on this situation, you had an huge emotional explode.  Your emotional explode reflects the level of your internal cultivation clearly--you have not begun your internal cultivation at the internal organ level yet.  Thus, quantumdragon's observation on your energy field sounds correct.  

 

I thought that Opendao has deep experience and understanding on this area as a pre-heaven practitioner.  It seems that I totally overvalued your internal cultivation.  You might not have experienced such phenomena yet—perhaps you may experience such phenomena later when your pre-heaven practice is at more advanced level (s). 

 

 

Opendao, on 17 Aug 2015 - 22:42, said:

  ….I have to say that the "field of qi" in special places and from teachers is one thing, scanning others by thinking about them (or by analysing what they write)  - another. The field of qi is De. The scanning is an attribute of Shishen - cognition. Field of qi cannot be evil by definition. Scanning cannot be dangerous: people do it constantly in the real life, and nobody complains...

 

Why you think the field of qi is De?  You said that “people do it constantly in the real life, and nobody complains.” You mean people do it constantly in the real life consciously or unconsciously?  Are you scanning people constantly in real life without their permission? 

Cheya Posted 11 July 2015 - 11:43 AM, Said:

 

Has anybody read the book? Comments?

 

Opendao, are you aware of this Forum is for discussing about Riding the Phoenix to Penglai?  You have not read the book yet.  It appears that you do not understand Ms. Gonet’s commentary and do not understand Sun Bu-Er’s teaching and you do not know Ma Dan-Yang’s teaching.  Why you are here to disturb others’ discussion and conversations in this Forum?  What is your motivation at this Forum? Is it just for selling yourself as a Neidan master with your advertising?

 

Opendao, on 16 Aug 2015 - 08:48 PM, said:

 

5 lying ladies in one place, speaking crap about Dao, that's really amusing for the Daoist forum.  Shame and nothing sacred. 

 

This Forum is for discussing about Riding the Phoenix to Penglai and for talking about female internal cultivation.  Do you know that your attitude and behavior are so arrogant, rude, disrespectful, forceful, abusive, and invasive to women? Do these kinds of attitude and behavior of yours come from your Neidan training?  Or are these kinds of attitude and behavior the unique De expressions of your Yu Xian Pain school? 

 

Sometimes, Opendao appears smart and intelligent and a great Neidan master.  If you want to sell yourself as a Neidan master and expert, it would be great if you can prove it first.  You have not answered my questions yet.  I might have asked you too many questions last time.  Let’s make it simple and easy for you.  This time I only ask you the following three questions:

1. Have you experienced the spiritual Pivot within? If yes, please give an example and be specific. 
2. Have you seen the flight of golden sparks?  If yes, please give an example and be specific. 
3. Which level of Neidan cultivation you have completed?  Any certificate or evidence? 

 

You said that the ladies in this Forum are lying.  Can you give more specific examples?  For example, Quantumdragon, on 16 Aug 2015 - 07:50 AM, said: Opendao has not begun the beginning steps of firing, purifying or bathing. And he has not activated any of his organ systems at all.  Is this true or not true?  If this is not true, please give evidence to prove it.    

 

 

Daeluin, on 16 Aug 2015 - 05:04 PM, said:

 

In any case, the whole qigong vs neidan / prenatal vs postnatal thing tickles my sense that something is off. The Zhong Lu Chuan Dao Ji goes into quite some detail on working with the organs…

 

So... Liu Yiming says that the organs themselves are just sediments, and perhaps we could say this means to not work with the postnatal. And yet, Liu Yiming clearly and extensively details how the operation of the five phases can be used to transform the postnatal into the prenatal. For internal alchemy, it seems to paint a clear picture that by using the five phase operation of the organ qi, we can work towards bridging the gap between the postnatal and the prenatal, and leading the postnatal manifestations back to the prenatal.  

 

Daeluin, thank you so much for providing such helpful information.  I agree.  

 

The authors of Zhong Lu Chuan Dao Ji are Zhongli Quan and Lü Dongbin.  Lü Dongbin is Wang Chongyang’s teacher; and Wang Chongyang is Ma Danyang’s teacher.  Ma Danyang is the founder of Yu Xian Pai.  Above masters all know how to use the five phases operation of the organ qi to transform the postnatal into the prenatal.  My internal elixir cultivation teacher knows it.  In Qigong practice, there is a method called “五炁朝元法” which also can be used to transform the postnatal into the prenatal.  My Qigong teacher knows how to do it. 

 

However, Opendao does not know how to use the five phases operation of the organ qi to transform the postnatal into the prenatal, which indicates that Opendao does not know Ma Danyang , the founder’s teaching and there is no direct transmission to Opendao.  

 

Quantumdragon said that she cannot verify the authenticity of the Linage that instructs him (Opendao) or better his relationship with and his understanding of the Great Patriarch's Teachings.  Is this true or not true?  If this is not true, please give evidence to prove it.    

Quantumdragon, on 16 Aug 2015 - 07:50 AM, said:

 

Xuanming I would like to offer an energetic assessment of Opendao. He has made many claims about his training. I cannot verify the authenticity of the Linage that instruct him or better his relationship with and his understanding of the Great Patriarch's Teachings. 

 

Thank you for offering your energetic assessment of Opendao and for providing some of his pre-heaven information.  I am impressed with your assessment and observations.  They are very insightful and helpful. I observed Opendao’s energetic system last night, and I agree with you that Opendao has not begun the beginning steps of firing, purifying or bathing. And he has not activated any of his organ systems at all.  So there are big gaps between your internal cultivation and his Neidan/pre-heaven cultivation.  I don’t think that he can understand your experience and energetic assessment on his energy and pre-heaven information.  He is not happy to see that you can not only read his energy system but also you can read his pre-heaven information.  

 

Opendao appears smart and intelligent and a great Neidan master. Opendao claims that he works with Neidan, works with Yuan QI / Preheaven / Primordial / Authentic / Original NOT postnatal existence. But the reality is that he knows how to find postnatal knowledge and information, copy and paste, but he has not realized himself yet, he cannot speak from his own internal experience with his own realization, and he even does not know where his mind is and he is not aware of his subconscious and internal organ conscious conditioning.  Quantumdragon is right that at this point, only post heaven is ruling Opendao’s body. 

 

Opendao appears a great Neidan master.  He claims to know Yuan Jing, Yuan QI / Preheaven / Primordial / Authentic / Original, but he does not know the relationships between post-heaven and pre-heaven and does not know how to transform post-heaven energy to serve the pre-heaven’s needs.

 

Quantumdragon has already experienced and demonstrated the process of postnatal energy transformation to prenatal energy and then to work on the internal elixir cultivation as the follows:

 

 

Quantumdragon Posted 02 August 2015 - 07:18 PM

 …the  qi like  bread rocking like a baby in a cradle  the energy between the  lower dantien, the jade pillow area , the front of the  forehead and the  sacrum. My arms may move with the hand, wrist and elbow positions changing to direct the qi. Then the pelvic floor opens and I bend my knees up and down kneading and the energy decedents out from the pelvic floor to the earth. I may stand with this flow of energy for up to an hour or until it naturally shift. When it returns from the earth it goes straight up the center of my body in front of the spine out the to of my head this energy feels light and cooler but still warm. While this circulation is occurring the energy in the sacrum becomes very hot and starts pumping qi up the du meridian and down the ren the lower dantien then begins to spin like a gyroscope condensing.

 

This is an excellent example of postnatal energy transformation. 

 

 

Quantumdragon Posted 01 August 2015 - 06:50 AM

For me taming the dragon was not taming in the literal sense at all. It felt like the water dragon of the deep ocean in my human body with all of its reproductive earthly human mandate-produce/procreate or die trying was gently introduced to another type of dragon from   the heavenly oceans. Over the course of many classes and hours of personal practice this Yin earthly ocean dragon mated with the Yang heavenly ocean dragon. The female water dragon fulfilled her mandate to procreate and the Male winged heavenly Dragon fulfilled his mandate to assist the earth immortal Yin dragon to have a child. Together they raise this child dragon hybrid that lives in heaven and on earth simultaneously.  Since both Dragon are immortal and what is born is immortal. It feels like Ultimate Yin and Ultimate Yang become good parents to this immortal living child inside my body, feeding, caring and fostering with discipline and limitless wisdom their creation.

 

In the traditional way, this process was described as Dragon and Tiger Mating.  This is another example of prenatal energy interactions during your internal cultivation and Qigong practice.  Your expression of this internal alchemical cultivation is authentic, original and elegant!  You don’t need to use other people’s words, your authentic expression is great.  Be confident! 

 

Opendao, on 15 Aug 2015 - 08:30 PM, said:

 

 …Qigong works with Postheaven Qi, Neidan works with Yuan QI / Preheaven / Primordial / Authentic / Original.

 

Quantumdragon practices Qigong with pre-heaven / Primordial / Authentic Qi experience and Opendao works with Yuan QI / Preheaven / Primordial / Authentic / Original but trapped in post-heaven.  This is very amusing. 

Opendao, on 15 Aug 2015 - 09:30 PM, said:

 

...Qigong works with Postheaven Qi, Neidan works with Yuan QI / Preheaven / Primordial / Authentic / Original.

 

If people teach Qigong, but explain the postheaven changes using the language of Neidan (dantian, heaven circuit, refining jing into qi etc) then they are in illusions, confused and fool others.

 

It sounds that Opendao is great Neidan master. And your above statement is fascinating.

 

It would be great to hear your philosophy and methods regarding how did you make such conclusion. 

1. Is it from your pre-heaven expression or post-heaven studies?  
2. Do you have any evidence and references about your statement?  
3. What kind of Neidan classics and scriptures have you studied so far?
4. Which level of Neidan cultivation you have completed?  
5. Can you share some of your Neidan cultivation experience?  
6. Have you experienced the spiritual Pivot within?
7. Have you seen the flight of golden sparks?  
8. Do you know that some individuals have experiential understanding and realization about Yuan QI / Preheaven / Primordial / Authentic / Original through Qigong practice?  

Opendao, on 15 Aug 2015 -, 01:57 PM, said:

 

Everything is good with the "spirit of Ma Dan Yang", real one and not some fantasy one, as well as with the results people get in Yuxianpai school. So better focus on yourself and ask yourself why you don't understand basic things I'm talking about.

 

Thank you so much for your advice, Opendao.  Following your suggestion, I focused on myself and ask myself why I don’t understand basic things you are talking about.  I just figured out that Opendao is extremely smart!  So it takes more efforts for Xuanming to understand your basic things.  I would greatly appreciate it if you would let me know if I understand your basic things, as follows:

1. You believe that internal elixir used yuan Jing (original Jing) not sexual Jing. You agree that the yuan Jing (original Jing) can be declined or drained out by excess sexual activity and sexual energy flow outward and leak out.  Am I right about this?     
2. You do not believe the path can be reversed or you do not believe that the sexual energy or the energy of reproductive organ can be transformed to authentic Qi. Is this your understanding? 
3. You believe that the internal elixir cultivation has no any relationship with the principles of internal cultivation and stated: “That's all Qigong that has no relation to Neidan of any traditional school.”  My teacher is the 13th generation lineage holder of the internal elixir school.  And my teacher told me that it is important to understand the meaning and steps of the principles of internal cultivation.  It seems that my teacher is not in your neidan school list.  It seems that you think that neidan is not Qigong and not related to authentic Qi cultivation. Is this your understanding? 
4. Xuanming, on 15 Aug 2015 - 11:53, said: When you arrived on earth after your birth, you started your postnatal life.  Everything you do including what you eat, what you say, what you think, and what you do all can affect the condition and status of your primal spirit.  Opendao said: “no, it doesn't, such things affect xin-mind only.”  For example, if you have sexual addiction, or project angers to others or hate others and cause harm to others, you think these kind of behavior affect your mind only but do not affect the status of your primal spirit.  Is this your belief and understanding? 
5. Xuanming, on 15 Aug 2015 - 11:53, said:  The postnatal transformation serves the growth and development of the primal spirit--this is the core practice of Taoist spirituality and immortality. Opendao said: “no, such way nor spirituality, nor immortality cannot be achieved, or all people would become immortals through the natural "postnatal transformation".  What’s wrong if all people would become immortals with great health and no sufferings?  Do you think that only yourself can become an immortal but not any others? 
6. Have you read Innersoundqigong’s post?  How do you think about the postnatal sexual energy transformation? 

Opendao, on 14 Aug 2015 - 07:54 PM, said:

 

…, postnatal cannot be converted to anything primordial, so I see no parallels with what we learn and teach. 

 

Thank you for sharing your understanding on internal elixir cultivation and for introducing the teaching from Yu Xian Pai practice.  

 

The founder of Yu Xian Pai school is Ma Dan-Yang who directly received transmission and blessing from his teacher, Wang Chong-Yang.  He was also the Dragon Gate founder, Qiu Chu-Ji’s mentor.  Transforming the Jing essence to primordial Qi for nourishing the shen, is the unique practice of the complete reality school. 

 

If you do not know how to transform the Jing essence to primordial Qi, your pre-heaven Jing can easily become postnatal Jing and leak out. 

 

Lao Zi, Lü Chun-Yang, Wang Chong-Yang, Ma Dan-Yang, Sun Bu-Er, all know how to transform the Jing essence to primordial Qi for nourishing the shen. 

 

In my view, the complete reality school teaches the main following training:

1. Cultivate the body--with authentic Qi cultivation to increase the awareness level of the internal body for internal healing and transformation, including reversing the internal energy flow from outward to inward, stop leaking original Jing and primordial Qi; heal health conditions, and transform unhealthy behavior such as sexual addition, or substance addiction, etc. This involves the first two steps of internal cultivation a)炼精化炁 (transforming the postnatal jing essence to prenatal or primordial qi), 炼炁养神 (refining prenatal qi to nourish the mind);
2. Cultivating the mind--with peaceful mind meditation and quiet sitting to transform the conscious mind and ego to serve the growth and development of the primal spirit; this is the third step c) 炼神化虚 (refining the mind to the primal spirit--shen);
3. The primal spirit-authentic self returns to oneness with the Tao, obtains spiritual freedom, returns to the true home of heaven and achieves spiritual immortality.  This is the fourth step d) 炼虚合道 (refining the primal spirit to accordance with the Tao). 

When you arrived on earth after your birth, you started your postnatal life.  Everything you do including what you eat, what you say, what you think, and what you do all can affect the condition and status of your primal spirit.  The postnatal transformation serves the growth and development of the primal spirit--this is the core practice of Taoist spirituality and immortality. 

 

Your statement “postnatal cannot be converted to anything primordial” raised my concerns about the teaching of Yu Xian Pai today, because your statement suggests that the current Yu Xian Pai does not know how to transform postnatal energy to serve the growth and development of the primal spirit.  Where is the spirit of Ma Dan-Yang in the Yu Xian Pai today?  

Opendao, on 14 Aug 2015 - 09:04, said:

 

Yes, I teach Daogong (Neigong) and Yu Xian Pai.

 

Speaking about women alchemy as we know it and practice, we have quite a lot of women in the school, and also we received the complete method of Wu-Liu Pai: the beginning is the same as for men, the real difference comes later, and the general process doesn't really follow the way written in Gonet's book, especially where she speaks about "sexual energy", Eros etc: postheaven jing is not what is used in Neidan. 

 

I am so delighted to hear that you teach Daogong (Neigong) and Yu Xian Pai.  

 

I agree with you that the Neidan (Internal Elixir) formation is related to cultivation of the original Jing, primordial qi and the primal spirit-Shen.

 

There are many schools in Taoist internal elixir cultivation practice.  Majority of the Taoist schools all agree that the principles of internal cultivation are 炼精化炁 (transforming the postnatal jing essence to prenatal or primordial qi), 炼炁养神 (refining prenatal qi to nourish the mind), 炼神化虚 (refining the mind to the primal spirit-shen), and 炼虚合道 (refining the primal spirit to accordance with the Tao). 

 

It seems that you read some of the excerpt of Riding the Phoenix to Penglai, but you have not read the book.  When I read Riding the Phoenix to Penglai, particularly the section of Taming the dragon, I did not see where Ms. Gonet says that the postnatal Jing is used in Neinan.  I did see how Ms. Gonet emphasizes that the appropriate management of postnatal Jing-“sexual energy” is an important part of process in transforming the postnatal jing essence to prenatal or primordial qi. 

 

I do believe that you have deep experiential understanding on male Neigong and Yu Xian Pai practice.  I would like to visit your class and learn from you about Yu Xian Pai practice.

 

But it is interesting to hear Guys say: “we received the complete method of female elixir cultivation.”  Regarding female internal alchemy, it would be great to hear advice and instructions from experienced and successful practitioners from the Purity and Tranquility school but not Guy’s assumptions and projections.   

Opendao, on 13 Aug 2015 - 08:06 PM, said:

 

The Patriarchs of Yu Xian Pai and Wu-Liu Pai schools, and their indoor Western students.  … So I've been learning there for a long time. 

 

 

The founder of Yu Xian Pai school is Ma Danyang who was Sun Bu-Er’s husband.  Both of them were students of Wang Chong-Yang, the founder of complete reality school.  I am so delighted to hear that you have been studying internal elixir cultivation from the complete reality school.

 

Are you teaching Taoist practices in Vancouver, BC?  

Opendao, on 13 Aug 2015 - 09:41 AM, said:

 

Just curious who are they?

 

One of my live teachers is Wudao Zhenzi, internal elixir school 13 generation lineage holder. At this point, I do not have permission from my other teachers to publish their names on the internet.

 

I am also curious about your experience in Taoist training.  Who are your teachers? 

Stone into Jade Posted 11 Aug 2015 - 01:12 PM

 

The reason I joined Dao Bums was to have conversation with other practitioners about Riding the Phoenix to Penglai.

 

 

Freedomrose Posted 12 Aug 2015 - 12:26 AM

 

I too would appreciate a conversation about Riding the Phoenix to Penglai.

 

 

Cheya Posted 11 July 2015 - 11:43 AM

 

Riding the Phoenix to Penglai

Poetry by Taoist Adept Sun Bu-Er

by Jill Gonet

Inspirational Instructions on Internal Cultivation from Sun Bu-Er

 

Here's an intriguing excerpt:

http://yang-sheng.com/?p=10773

 

and a review:

http://yang-sheng.com/?p=11076

 

 

Has anybody read the book? Comments?

 

 

 

Quantumdragon Posted 12 Aug 2015 - 6:30 AM

 

Let us start over with our own conversation. Those of us who have read the book just start with your topic.  Maybe that would provide an interesting contrast to wild speculation etc.

 

I hope that your conversation about Riding the Phoenix to Penglai will be on your topic and on the subject without disruptions or without conversation hijacker from now on.  

 

 

 

 

Quantumdragon Posted 11 Aug 2015, 04:27 PM

 

Xuanming,

Thank you so much for your precious time teaching all of us on this forum. I thought at first you were a great master that has been doubly confirmed by my experience reading the summary you posted.

 

 

I don’t consider myself a great master, but I do think that I am a truehearted student of the Dao and a sincere internal cultivator. 

 

I am so fortunate to have live teachers and companionship in my journey of Dao cultivation.  So I can discuss and confirm my experiences and realizations with my teachers and experienced and self-realized practitioners.  I am grateful to my teachers and companionship.  It is important to be safe and able to prevent delusions and misunderstanding on internal experiences on the path of Daoist cultivation.  So Daoist cultivators can successfully realize the authentic self, achieve internal freedom like Lü Dongbin (as he stated in his poem—the Secret of Freedom) or like Sun Bu-Er who found her true home--Penglai. 

Stone into Jade Posted 11 Aug 2015, 12:52 PM

 

I think we are all quite through with misguided brilliance. 

 

… my absolute sincere hope is everyone realize that theft of other's property (including energetic property) does not in any way promote the soul, but in fact degrades it. 

 

Somehow, I know this has been said before. Now that I know, it actually degrades my own soul to feed another's affliction. So, moving on.

 

Wow!  Great awareness, deep realization, and wise advice!  Thank you.  

Taoist Texts  posted 10 Aug 2015, 02:01 PM

 

Xuanming, on 10 Aug 2015 - 10:31, said:

It is so exciting ...  I hope that it is not too late for him to find a true live teacher who may explain the secrets to him.

 

Taoist Texts  posted 10 Aug 2015, 02:01 PM

 

Xuanming;)

 

I am a true live teacher.

 

Taoist Texts,

 

I am so happy to hear that you found a true live teacher so quickly and found yourself.  It sounds like you had a significant realization or sudden enlightenment (明心见性).  

 

 

Taoist Texts Posted 02 August 2015 - 10:26 PM

…You see i dont believe in live teachers. This gentlemen posessess a secret to his art that took him his whole life to obtain. Why would he teach it to me? There is no possible reason to do so.

 

So, now do you believe in live teachers?  Can you trust yourself? 

Taoist Texts Posted 08 August 2015  03:33 AM

吾勸真心學道者，速將猜議關口打通，把生平自負才能伎倆除去，尋求真師，開明奧義。萬不可以自己假聰明，妄議猜量，自哄自也。否則，不證於人，只求於己。不是在外搜尋，便是身內做作。妄想修道，難矣！

 



I kindly advise the truehearted students of Dao - urgently break through the gate of speculation and guesswork, reject commonplace boastful talents and machinations, seek and visit a true teacher who will clearly explain the secrets. It is absolutely not allowed to use own false cleverness, enter into wild arguments and guesswork, and to fool yourself. If not so, if there is no confirmations by others, you will find only yourself. If you don’t look outside, then it will only remain for you to pretend that you have something inside.

 

It is so exciting to see that Taoist Texts began to have self-awareness about himself and found a nice quote to express his self-evaluation. It is also good to hear that Taoist Texts wants to break through the gate of speculation and guesswork, reject commonplace boastful talents and machinations, and seek and visit a true teacher who will clearly explain the secrets to him.

 

It is very significant for Taoist Texts to be aware of how he uses his own false cleverness, and enters into wild arguments and guesswork, to fool himself. For example: 

 

 

 

1) Taoist Texts Posted 12 July 2015 - 01:33 AM

I have not read this exact book but i have read the original. The author mainly keeps missing the point wildly, like e.g  on the link above she pontificates for an entire page on the 'taming the dragon' without ever mentioning that it specifically refers to  the physical elimination of the menses.

 

...her own guesswork notwithstanding the translation per se is more or less palatable, so it could be a useful read all in all. I have not read this exact book but i have read the original. The author mainly keeps missing the point wildly, like e.g  on the link above she pontificates for an entire page on the 'taming the dragon' without ever mentioning that it specifically refers to  the physical elimination of the menses.

 

This post shows a) Taoist Texts has an inflated big fat ego with disrespect—Have not read this exact book yet, don’t know the book content yet, but assume knows better than the book author; and read the original, but does not understand the meaning of the original, so provided false cleverness, entered into wild arguments and guesswork, and used false information to criticize the book author’s exceptional work. 

 

 

 

 

Xuanming, on 28 Jul 2015 - 10:42, said:

 

渔父词一十八首·沐浴 Bathing

Translation by Taoist Texts

 

卯酉门中作用时，赤龙时蘸玉清池。


云薄薄，雨微微，看取妖容露雪肌。

 

This is the time of work by the Mao-You gate,

The scarlet dragon immerses in the Pool of Clean Jade.

Thinly-thin are the clouds, tiny-tiny it rained,

Take a look at the charming appearance of the snow-white skin unveiled.

 

 

 

2) Taoist Texts Posted 28 July 2015 - 08:37 PM

Commentary:

 

The meaning is twofold: one is false but practical; the other is true but useless;). Both are readily available on the internet.

 

Red Dragon is a name for the tongue. The tongue is the tool by which the
saliva is produced and therefore functions as the source of good health.  

tongue around the inside of the mouth.

 

Rouse and rinse means to gather the saliva in the mouth. The qi is stimu-
lated during the in and out motions of rinsing. Thirty-six is the number of
revolutions. This procedure in effect causes the circulation and stimulation
of qi so that it can penetrate deeply.

 

This is false but hey, everyone can do it and there is no harm in it.

 

 If then the true seed is born, and the right method applied in order to melt and mix it, and in that way to create the Elixir of Life, then one goes through the pass. The embryo, which must be developed by the work of warming, nourishing, bathing, and washing, is formed. 

 

This is true, but since no one can do it its useless, and worse, those who seek live teachers to learn how to do this will be had by the said teachers.

 

 

Above Taoist Texts’ translation and commentary of the Poem “Bathing” demonstrated his language talent and skills and showed his experience and understanding of Dao cultivation—no experience and does not understand the meaning of the poem at all.  Even though he has no internal cultivation experience and does not understand the meaning of the poem, he pretends that he knows better than people who have rich experience of internal cultivation with internal realization. 

 

 

 

 

Opendao, on 05 Aug 2015 - 10:55, said:

四(four)字(character)凝(4 "congeal")神(3 spirit)入气(1 qi)穴("lair" 2)；

Do you really think that 入 is not a character? Or maybe you think the author couldn't properly count? How come you translate 5 characters as 4 words, skipping one of them (important one by the way)?  

 Any why you cannot  translate 气穴 anyhow else? "

 Simple question: what enters what (and when)?  

 

 

 

 

3) Taoist Texts Posted 05 August 2015 - 07:54 PM

• Once Nasreddin was invited to deliver a sermon. When he got on the pulpit, he asked, Do you know what I am going to say? The audience replied "no", so he announced, I have no desire to speak to people who don't even know what I will be talking about! and left.
• The people felt embarrassed and called him back again the next day. This time, when he asked the same question, the people replied yes. So Nasreddin said, Well, since you already know what I am going to say, I won't waste any more of your time! and left.
• Now the people were really perplexed. They decided to try one more time and once again invited Nasreddin to speak the following week. Once again he asked the same question – Do you know what I am going to say? Now the people were prepared and so half of them answered "yes" while the other half replied "no". So Nasreddin said Let the half who know what I am going to say, tell it to the half who don't, and left.[21]

 

 

Opendao had a simple and brilliant question about the second line of Master Lü Dongbin‘s original poem “The Secret of Freedom,” as shown in the above.  Taoist Texts’ response to Opendao’s question showed that Taoist Texts did not know the meaning of the second line of the poem at all. He was not able to answer Opendao’s question, but still pretends that he knows better than Opendao who has actual Daoist practice experience. 

 

Above posts have shown that Taoist Texts is not a truehearted student of the Dao and not a Taoist practitioner.  Now he expresses his desire to seek a true teacher who will clearly explain the secrets to him.

 

 

 

 

Opendao Posted 03 August 2015 - 11:11 AM

… in the world there are teachers, who really know Neidan, and they glad to share their knowledge even with foreigners. Why? Because they have De and they see clearly what has to be done to help people. Only blind people can say that Neidan masters focus only on their own practice.  In reality it's impossible to achieve even the first level without De.  So teachers have their strong reasons to teach right students.

 

 

 

 

quantumdragon, on 02 Aug 2015 - 19:13, said:

That looks so beautiful relaxing and lovely. Is the man in the video your teacher? 

 

 

 

 

Taoist Texts Posted 02 August 2015 - 10:26 PM

no i dont know him, its just a video from which it can be learned a thing or two. You see i dont believe in live teachers. This gentlemen posessess a secret to his art that took him his whole life to obtain. Why would he teach it to me? There is no possible reason to do so.

 

 

So far, it seems that no enlightened teacher or skilled teacher wants to teach Taoist Texts, due to his false cleverness, disrespectful character and arrogant nature without De-virtues.  This leads him to believe that no live teachers will teach the secrets to him.  Taoist Texts might be right about this—his experience has shown that Taoist Texts has no Yuanfen with the Dao. 

 

Now Taoist Texts expresses his desire to seek a true teacher who will clearly explain the secrets to him.  I hope that it is not too late for him to find a true live teacher who may explain the secrets to him.

Walker 03 August  07:42 PM Said

 

Yikes. Here's something for your Google Translate software: 走弯路.

道在苦修妙在傳

須拜明師點玄關

 

Taoist Texts 07 August 02:49 AM

道在苦修妙在传，须拜明师点玄关，

 

Practicing Dao is in bitter austerities, obtaining its magic is from the transmission,

You must bow to an enlightened teacher for a hint of the Dark Gates.

 

My guess is that Walker finds this stanza inspiring for some reason.

 

师父领进门， 修行在个人

[shī fu lǐng jìn mén xiū xíng zài gè rén]

The master teaches the trade, but the perfection of the apprentice's skill depends on his own efforts.；

 

The last two

道在苦修与妙悟 Obtaining Dao is in bitter training and marvelous realization,

莫入迷津走弯路 (if so) you will not enter the Ford of Confusion, and roundabout pathways.

 

and? whats that all about?

 

Hi Taoist Texts,

Thank you for translating Walker’s post and my response to Walker’s post. 

 

Hi Quantumdragon

 

I thought that Walker’s post is excellent, because it shows the understanding on the Dao cultivation and respectful to teachers. 

It strongly emphasizes the importance to have an enlightened teacher for pointing out the Gate of Xuan. I agree.  (the Gate of Xuan may not be dark, can be bright and colorful).

 

In my response to Walker's post, I wanted to share that 1) an enlightened teacher is important for Dao cultivators; 2) the achievements of Dao cultivators depends on her or his own efforts including a) diligent practice;  in addition to hard work and practice, the key for making significant progress on the Dao cultivation is profound self-realization; and c) be careful and don’t get confused and sidetracked.    

Xuanming, on 05 Aug 2015 - 23:32, said:

 

Taoist Texts translates 玄中玄as “a darkness in mystery” and Richard Wilhelm translates 玄中玄 as “still deeper secret of the secret.”  Both translations sound great literally.

 

But, I don’t think that these translations reflect the meaning of Master Lü Dongbin’s expression adequately.  Are there any comments, input and suggestions? 

 

 

Taoist Texts  06 August 10:08 PM said:

Apparently none.  What does Ms Gonet says on this?

 

I have the same question.  I hope that Ms. Gonet would join our conversation.  

 

Regarding the character Xuan (玄),  certainly you can translate as darkness, or mystery, or secret; literally, however, in Master Lü Dongbin’s poem, he is talking about the advanced internal cultivation. 

 

Hi Taoist Texts, have you practiced Taoist quiet sitting before?   If yes, have you experienced the state of emptiness, or the empty space between thoughts or between images or between thought and image? 

 

During the quiet sitting practice, if you observe the thoughts or images in your mind screen carefully, you may experience an interesting phenomenon: a time frame of past-present-future changes to future-present-past.   In the beginning, a thought stays in the mind for while, then goes away, and becomes the past.  Then a new thought comes; before this present thought goes away, another future thought is waiting to come into the mind.  You may find there is an empty space between thoughts or between images, or between thought and image.  

 

Master Lü Dongbin’s玄中玄 (Xuan in the xuan), echoes Lao Zi’s Dao De Jing beautifully as chapter one states:

 

道 可 道 ， 非 常 道 。 名 可 名 ， 非 常 名 。

无 名 天 地 之 始 ﹔ 有 名 万 物 之 母 。

故 常 无 ， 欲 以 观 其 妙 ﹔ 常 有 ， 欲 以 观 其 徼 。

此 两 者 ， 同 出 而 异 名 ， 同 谓 之 玄 。玄 之 又 玄 ， 众 妙 之 门 。

 

Here Lao Zi gave the Xuan a new meaning: state of mind between emptiness and new thought or image appearance, or between the Wu and You, in other words, Xuan means the Gate of Dao, the First Entrance of the Dao of Internal Cultivation.  This Gate of Xuan is not easy to enter for people who have very strong intellectual drive or big fat ego, particularly inflated big fat ego.

 

Master Lü Dongbin’s玄中玄 (Xuan in the xuan), echoes Lao Zi’s玄 之 又 玄 (Entering further into deep state of Xuan after the Gate of Xuan). 

Daeluin  06 August 11:07 AM

 

Mao and you represent sunrise and sunset, or, more importantly, any times when yang begins to overcome yin, and when yin begins to overcome yang.

 

Thank you for pointing out the essence of the time of Mao and You.  

 

 

Daeluin  06 August 11:07 AM

The white also represents metal, the black, water. Metal is also associated with heavenly qi, and with the middle line of Kan. Once the spiritual embryo has returned to the lair of energy, we have the Metal hidden within the Water. The two outer lines of Kan can represent the black that conceals the white, and can be used as a vehicle to flow with, even as the white remains hidden within.

 

This expression of the image of Kan is brilliant, beautiful and inspiring!   Thank you for sharing.  

Taoist Texts 05 August, 04:04 AM

 

This is a secret to travelling free

Sent down from high by the Jade Purity.

 

Qi. Lair. Spirit. and Congeal.

Four characters only, this to see and feel:

 

In the hot summer a snowfall thick and white,-

Red sun at midnight shiny, red and bright.

 

A gentle breeze will blow, from within the sea,-

Coming down from Heavens,  an edible bounty.

 

One important phrase which must be asserted

‘There is a darkness in mystery inserted’.

 

Who will be able that darkness find,

Will everywhere in The True reside.

 

 

The title of this poem is the Secret of Freedom

 

Here, the freedom Master Lü Dongbin refers to the freedom of the spirit.

 

玉清留下逍遥诀，

 

The first line was talking about the source of the secret.  Master Lü shared that the secret method was told by the Jade Purity.

 

Regarding the second line: 四字凝神入气穴

 

Opendao 05 August 09:55 AM Said:

 

四(four)字(character)凝(4 "congeal")神(3 spirit)入气(1 qi)穴("lair" 2)；

 

Do you really think that 入 is not a character? Or maybe you think the author couldn't properly count? How come you translate 5 characters as 4 words, skipping one of them (important one by the way)? 

 

Any why you cannot  translate 气穴 anyhow else? "Lair" is very poetic, but has no practical sense, that you insist you know.

 

Simple question: what enters what (and when)? 

 

 

Oendao made a good point regarding the second line. 

 

The secret practice is to congeal the mind into the true aperture (or lair) at midnight 1-3 am (or at living baby time (活子时).  四(four)字(character) at here refers to time (1-3am or living baby time). 

 

As quantumdragon pointed out: you may find Sun Bu-Er’s first peom-Recalling the mind is very helpful to understand this second line.  Riding the Phoenix to Penglai (page 14, 28)

 

六月俄看白雪飞，

三更又见日轮赫；

水中吹起籍巽风，

 

The third, four and fifth lings are expressions of internal experience from internal cultivation. 

 

天上游歸食坤德；

Sixth line is advice for people who are living on the earth to establish virtues in accordance with the Dao.  Because the virtues are the essence and nutrients for spiritual growth and development.

 

更有一句玄中玄，

无何有乡是真宅。

 

The last two lines in this poem are expressions of the outcomes from the internal cultivation and living in accordance with the Dao:  realized the authentic self and found the true spiritual home. You may find that the Riding the Phoenix to Penglai is a brilliant expression of Sun Bu-Er, who found her true home, Penglai.

 

Taoist Texts translates 玄中玄as “a darkness in mystery” and Richard Wilhelm translates 玄中玄 as “still deeper secret of the secret.”  Both translations sound great literally.

 

But, I don’t think that these translations reflect the meaning of Master Lü Dongbin’s expression adequately.  Are there any comments, input and suggestions? 

 

Walker  03 August  07:42 PM Said

 

Yikes. Here's something for your Google Translate software: 走弯路.

道在苦修妙在傳

須拜明師點玄關

 

 

明師苦心领进门

弟子修行在个人

道在苦修与妙悟

莫入迷津走弯路

quantumdragon 01 August 2015 - 10:12 PM Said:

The  "event" that prompted my devotion was the first practice of 4 hours. I had never experienced anything like

the pure freedom and ecstasy  of what is  commonly written about as the Xuan state.

 

Have you read Master Lü Dongbin‘s The Secret of Freedom? 

 

The Secret of Freedom  (Translation by Thomas Cleary)

 

Jadelike purity has left a secret of freedom

In the lower world:

Congeal the spirit in the lair of energy,

And you'll suddenly see

White snow flying in midsummer,

The sun blazing in the water at midnight.

Going along harmoniously,

You roam in the heavens,

Then return to absorb

The virtues of the receptive.  

???

???

 

Master Lü Dongbin‘s original poem is the following:

 

逍遥诀

 

玉清留下逍遥诀，

四字凝神入气穴；

六月俄看白雪飞，

三更又见日轮赫；

水中吹起籍巽风，

天上游歸食坤德；

更有一句玄中玄，

无何有乡是真宅。

 

Hi Taoist Texts,

What do you think about the translation of this poem by Thomas Cleary?  I respect Thomas Cleary and appreciate his work. 

But I am surprised this translation was not completed- the last two lines were not translated.  It seems that he does not understand the meaning of the two lines.  Actually the last two lines in this poem are very important.  Is it possible for you to translate this poem with your own version or at least to translate the last two lines and explain the meanings of the last two lines? 

 

Quantumdragon has experienced the pure freedom and ecstasy during the internal cultivation practice, and wants to offer assistance to you. I am thinking perhaps you and Quantumdragon would work together for a perfect and complete translation of Master Lü Dongbin‘s poem of Xiao Yao Jue. 

 

 

 

quantumdragon  on 02 Aug 2015 - 08:18 PM, said:

Do you recommend studying TCM in depth?  Are there study materials for the layperson not wanting to become a TCM doctor?

 

 

Acupuncture meridians were second part of The Yellow Emperor's Classic of Internal Medicine, called “Ling Shu” and is translated as “The Spiritual Pivot.” It would be helpful for your internal cultivation and qigong practice if you understand the internal energy pathways and key acupuncture points.  (You may find Acupuncture Handbook - 'Point Locations' Kindle Edition $4.90 helpful for you). 

 

On the other hand, the acupuncture meridians described in The Yellow Emperor's Classic of Internal Medicine were ancient, about 4, 000 years old.  Today these meridians have not verified and updated yet.  For example, there are no meridians of reproductive system, no meridians of lymphatic system, no meridians of endocrine system, no meridians of nerve system, no meridians of pancreas, in Ling Shu or traditional Chinese medicine (TCM).  How TCM treat health conditions effectively without deep understanding of above meridians? 

 

Your internal authentic Qi experiences are impressive.  It would be helpful and beneficial if you would discuss about your experience with your mentor for deepening your internal cultivation.  With your authentic Qi cultivation, I hope that you will be able to verify the internal energy pathways and discover new relationships between internal energy pathways and pancreas, or endocrine system, or reproductive system, or nerve system or lymphatic system, etc. 

Quantumdragon Posted Today, 09:12 PM

Experiences cannot really be described because every human being is unique. How can energy interactions be the identical in different individuals.

 

Human body is an amazing vehicle for experiencing not only the physical reality but also emotional, energetic, mental and spiritual realities.  Four thousand years ago, ancient internal authentic Qi cultivators discovered internal energy pathways or acupuncture meridians and the relationships between emotions and internal organs as described in traditional Chinese medicine (TCM).  These discoveries all were based on internal experiences and realizations.  Thus, experiences can be described.  Energy interactions also can be described as examples of hexagrams in the Yi Jing (I Ching) system.  Your conversation with Taoist Texts is a great start and interesting.  I look forward to reading your conversations.  

Regarding the “slaying dragon model” and alternative nüdan (female elixir) model from an energetic-physiological point of view, I don’t think that I am the right person to answer your question, because I am not a female practitioner. 

 

As a Daoist practitioner, I think that internal cultivators and Qigong practitioners should understand that “Slaying the Red Dragon” – uses a technique of breast massage and internal visualization to eliminate the physical menses, which is not equal to formation of nüdan successfully.  For example, in the view of physiology, elimination of the physical menses is defined as Menopause, due to the natural depletion of ovarian oocytes from aging.  

 

In the view of neidan (internal elixir) cultivation, the alternative nüdan model should follow the process of transforming the Jing to Qi, and then transforming the Qi to nourish the Shen (spirit).  In other words, the nüdan model should transform the internal energy flow from postnatal state to prenatal state.  You may find Sun Bu-Er’s poem thirteen, Companion, Ms. Gonet’s translation and commentary (Riding the Phoenix to Penglai, page 81-84) are helpful for understanding the process of nüdan cultivation. 

 

Regarding my interpretation of Lü Dongpin's poem, it is a personal one based on my internal experience and realization and personal conversations with other experienced Daoist internal cultivators.  It is not based on the information from other Daoist schools or the knowledge on the internet. 

 Beautiful poem!