blue eyed snake

thanks for posting

well, i think it doesn't make much sense to talk about enlightenment as most of us can know only story's of what it is supposed to be. There seems to be a lot of consistency in those story's and they come from different cultures. It's like my little sonny...talking with a friend about physics, I've no idea who is right, but they do like it when I make tea for them. the so-called herd-instinct though, i do have ideas about. Imo it's fear, and i seem to remember that psychology backs me up there. There have been some experiments and what people will do to belong to a group is atrocious. Sure, it is wanting to belong, but the reason for that wanting is fear to be alone, cut of from the group. Fear to be alone is deeply ingrained in human consciousness, just as the fear for bodily pains, the fear for death. Now i 'm writing this, I think, underlying these three is the fear of losing control. And even when you see through this mechanism, it's still there, ruling you My two cents as for enlightenment, the only thing i'm sure of I'm far from it and i don't think I yearn to tread that path

7 storks in the meadow, spring is coming

you do not now this snake at all, but I'll refrain from getting too poisonous, to much work relating to the occasion. wish you luck and hope for you you never really get ill or have a real depression, even though that might be a healthy impulse to revise your opinions, BES

Thanks for your second post. I’m reacting because I recognize your breathing problem from personal experience, more than a decade ago. I can’t give you a TCM view but would like to give the western view on this. From the other posts I gather there’s a lot of overlap between the two. The way you describe it is a precise description of what western psychology calls ( chronic) hyperventilation. There is no need for it to be chronic by the way,so don’t you worry. It’s less well known as the acute version which can lead to panic attacks. But I remember very well the feeling of helplessness, of ‘what the hell is going on in my body” Reading your story you’ve got a lot of stress for a long time, i seem to read that something has closed now and a new beginning is opening itself? Both ways, the classic way to look at this is that the body will react on this kind of stress with the typical stress-reaction. There is a tiger, so all your body wants is fight or flight, therefor adrenalin takes over, heart and lungs are ready for a lot of action needed to conserve the body. Only, the kind of stress you’re dealing with doesn't give an outlet fort this. But the body reaction continues. Psychologist mostly call the state your in anxiety, and that is closely related to the fear mentioned in your OP. Tinnitus also is a sign of an overworked stress-system That means that for a long time you’ve been producing adrenalin with no bodily outlet. Results are double 1) you’re adrenal glands are overworked and depleted ( and this i think is part of the reason that TCM tells us fatigue has to do with the kidneys) and 2) you’re respiration is out of balance. Respiration has at least two components that are relevant here . 1) From the biochemistry point of view respiration is a fine balance between uptake of oxygen ( when there is shortage you get tired) and eliminating of carbon dioxide. The breathing reflex is controlled by the level of carbon dioxide in the blood, not by the level of oxygen. This is a system that allows for a lot of different bodyactions, works both when your running away from that tiger, and when you’re relaxing. Now what has happened to your body is that you recently tipped the balance over. Leading to the choking feeling you have. 2) Anxiety and high breathing are closely related, and I think that what was earlier called a frozen diaphragm is closely related to that. A lot of advice already given relate closely tot his western view, but for completeness i will repeat it First the choking feeling, I think when you ( start to) feel it, you should try tot take some action, a brisk walk if you’re able to, or when you need to stay inside something like pushups. This will elevate the carbondioxidelevel in your blood and should help. When you’re sitting in an office this is not feasible, you can hold your breath as I asked you before, breath out as slowly as you can and repeat a few times.. That's the short term thing. When you find this works it confirms that something with your carbon-dioxide levels is out of balance. A frozen diaphragm you can liken to the feeling you probably have in the neck and shoulders. It’s a muscle that is continually in a state of too high contraction. For that magnesium (citrate) should be helpful. Bananas and cashew-nuts are also good. Massage sounds good to, but indeed emotions can come out, let them go. Then you’re adrenal glands are depleted, and you have fatigue. Don’t take caffeine, theine, alcohol and chocolate. These all tell you’re adrenal glands to start working again. Caffeine serves to boost your stress system, while you need to get out of that circle. I think this advice is close related to what TCM says. Besides on a more holistic vein, if your body tells you that its tired, then give it rest, it really needs that. What you’ve been through takes a lot from the body, not many people realize that but its true all the same Furthermore, drink lots of water to help you body clean up. TCM says that it should be water, that other fluids the body takes as food and that water is the best thing to clean the body. Kidney-specialists tell us that for every cup of coffee we take, two cups of water are needed to process it. That means, one coffee, two water, net result for the watercontent of the body is zero. I totally agree with earlier comments on yawning and stretching, i’ve found them to be helpful. And in general, don’t worry about it. your body is fine, you can trust that checkup. You’ve just asked much of your body and now is the time to give it what it needs, that means both rest when you’re tired. Just lay down, take a good stretch and give your body that rest. But it also means real bodily action. Good food, go easy on sugar and refined foods, lots of fruit and veggies. Having fought that ‘tiger’ for so long not only means you’ve depleted your body but longterm stress also leads to an impaired uptake of nutrients. So, take good care of yourself and be patient,it took time to build up and it will take to heal but you will be fine again. Reason fort his long and somewhat technical post. 15 Years ago I've been searching long for these answers, all the while getting worse because I worried about my body. You’ve been to a medical checkup and they didn’t recognize it. It takes time for these things to come in mainstream knowledge. You’re not having tingling or dizziness, and you can hold your breath for a minute, I think you just recently ‘tipped the scales’ so I think you can overcome this stage quite soon. So, not TCM but I hope it helps you. Wish you the best Question for members who have knowledge of TCM: I’ve an intuition that the frozen diaphragm is caused by this longterm stress. And that the body spontaneously tries to fix this by quick breathing.

may I ask some questions first, based on your story I think i have an idea what it is do you have dizziness? if yes at what time of day do you have a feeling of tingling in the face and/or hands other body parts, if yes at what time of day and is there an relation with the periods of breathing difficulties. How long can you hold your breath, i mean, not to the point of turning blue but just to the point you start to feel this is getting really uncomfortable do you have problems with vision do you have reduced concentration and memory

No, i didn't believe it, not even deep down. I believed it would be healthy for me to make myself at home again, that was just good advise, I didn't scrub the floor with salt water as she advised, i thought that BS The thing is, western psychology in general tends to say that placebo works because people believe it will work. That's the conventional viewpoint. Building a positive attitude and belief in yourself are the building blocks of cognitive therapy, Works fine for a large group of patients. Changing the mindset to positive things, believe you can do it. But for some people it doesn’t work ( cognitive therapy I mean) do they not believe, are they not able to believe? That's an insult for those people, I know people who feel insulted this way and feel the worse for it. Same with Lourdes, some people will find ( some) healing, others won’t. Is their Faith not big enough, should they believe more? Some posts ago I automatically started ‘debunking’ your ideas about the placebo-effect in the classic way, following the paradigm. You informed me I was wrong to do so, you were right. Old thinking habits die but slowly. Now it seems to me that you are following the ‘classic’ idea, its not modern western medicines so it has to be believing. believing as fundamental way of healing, That said, to believe that you will get better is surely part of the story, but in my opinion not the whole story. For the sake of clarity I will for now keep beetles and carbonmonoxid out of it. First, what is healing, the body is constantly healing itself. External influences injure the body, can be bad food, bad weather, a knifecut, bacteria, virus, overstretched muscles and a whole range of other, more internal things. The body heals itself, children have a far better selfhealing than elderly or ill people. Why is that? How does it work? Has modern medicine an answer to hat? I don’t think so. You made a split between biochemistry based medicine and some other things. You seem to think that healing by taking modern drugs is also partly by belief. western medicine developed out of herbal medicine. Here in the west we've gone that way and I agree wholeheartedly with you that it has many bad sides, but good sides too, we shouldn't forget that. Than you lump together faith-healing, alternative medicine, (vague term i fill it in as homeopathy for now) and voodoo and lastly you name acupuncture and qi-gong and likewise. I will skip homeopathy here and go to the directly energy-related items on your list. Traditional Chinese Medicine is old, older than western medicine. Just as in the west, it started with herbal medicine, but they didn't go the biochemistryway. They discovered how the vitality of the body is related to the flow of energy in the body. And with that discovery also were able to give an explanation for sickness that roots at least as deep as the western way. Imo the combination of those could give humanity much relief http://thetaobums.com/topic/37350-why-chest-pleasurepain-during-meditation/?p=605281 I had an experience like that. But you won't believe it, because you haven't experienced it. You would say that it is because I believe and I understand that wholeheartedly, because i didn't and don't believe it. I don't need to believe in the chair that I'm sitting on either. It's just there But science is slowly catching up, they are coming out with measurable things now. They have measured the large differences in the EM-field between the hands of healers while they are sendeg chi compared to controls.. And last winter I found some very interesting studies which made a start with making visible the meridians. Sadly I didn't keep them on my computer, I might try to find them back though. I've got a dutch one on paper that says that the normal emfield of a human is about 10 -6 Gauss, the healer did produce a field of 10-3 with his hands while sending. In my opinion healing that is not understood by the conventional western ideas is founded on energy/chi , what people believe is a factor that overlays this and is needed. And that is part of energywork. Taoism says something like: where your intent goes, your chi goes. meaning that you can choose a destination (believe), but when you haven't got enough fuel or the fuel can't reach the motor, you won't reach that destination. But as long as you think energywork is a belief, i won't try to explain how I think that it's working

eh, Nikolai, you're getting me hooked on this thread, I'll comment later, but for a starters. I don't think this can all be explained by believing it. I didn't believe those beetles would disappear for instance. And I didn't belief qigong would be working either, I remember the first weeks, i thought: "I'm crazy to be here and this socalled teacher is even more crazy than I am. But it worked anyway. And by now I have a deep respect for my teacher, but at that time... edit: btw. do you have personal experience with energywork?

question to the more knowledgeable members of this forum. sometimes while I'm meditating I hear/feel a kind of sound in my head. it is a sharp sound, like two wet hands clapping, feels like something is short-circuiting. When it happens, most of the time it jerks me out of it. When it happens and I go along a strange silky feeling invades my body and I float away in I don't know where. It doesn't bother me, but I'm curious if other people experience this too and what it could be

thanks

point taken But I would wish you tagged this phenomena different, no offence meant, but a placebo doesn't work. it's just a name for a not understood phenomena that regular science doesn't care to explore. I suppose that's why i conjured up some categories doesn't sound elitist to me, maybe you want more than you will get, just human Reading this, I think I'm not reneging, I think you overestimated me. But I pull the line at carbon monoxide. and the last line is another reason for tagging this phenomena as unexplained healing or something like that. On the more funny side, you wrote something that it would be nice to be able to clear the backyard of vermin this way. I did, well, not my backyard but an unexpected invasion of very large, shiny black beetles in my living-room. Just after my divorce, my ex had just left and these buggers came up. Mind you, i had been living in that house for say 15 years, never seen big beetles before. A friend of mine told me I should make the place my home again, that these critters would then move out. I took that as good psychological advise, I did feel uprooted in my own house ( I stayed there for the kid, we both deemed that better, but at that moment I loathed it). But didn't believe that the beetles would move out, I had already asked the drugstore what to do about it.... To my utter amazement, 3 days later there was no beetle in sight, only thing I'd done was give myself the feeling of, this is my home. I bought flowers, cleaned up more mindfully, that kind of things. So, maybe i'll develop sending out mice in the next ten years, BES

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yes, that is what i experience, kind of roadsign

well, i should have expected that ;-) the human entity is complex, the body can become sick and it can (and will) die. If exposed to enough carbonmonoxide it will stop functioning, So it is now. I tend to agree with you, that in principle, for entity's with maximum control over matter, this could be different.But those entity's i've not met. It starts with knowing, not only believing, that you're capable of that, that's very rare... For me it's a matter of balance and sensitivity. When I was a child i got another room in the house. Then winter came and i found that i became sluggish in my room, that i couldn't do my homework as before. So I went to my father and told him this, and that I thought there's something wrong with the gasstove. And so it was...the repairman fixed it and told my father that he should be happy his daughter was still alive. That's sensitivity, I didn't die, I moved out of the way before it could take me. and, for you i think explains the curtness of my post. balance, we all have a little control over matter, some more than others. Our body is that part of the universe that we have the most control over ( or should have). But that body is just a fragile sack of water and proteins. It gets hurt very easily. It's a wonder in itself that we survive in this world, fragile as we are. bad food, pollution, electromagnetic smog, emotional stresses all take their tool on the body. Some people are far more healthy than others. They take better care of themselves ( or are in a less dangerous environment, not everybody has the possibility to choose were to live.) People do qigong, yoga etc to alleviate the burden of life. medicine, Brian wrote something about the way placeboeffect and effect of tested drug are handled statistically. The best way we know of. Statistics have nothing to do with individual persons, only with groupeffects. I'm no doctor but a lot of drugs simply work, they have influence on the biological functioning of the body or direct effect on invading bacteria. But body's are very different from each other, that means the effect of a given medicine has different effects on people. Not just bodyweight, also age, general health, gender, metabolism to name a few. And of the placeboeffect. The placebo is an uncontroversial support for this. I don't think that the totality of placeboeffect is uncontroversial support for it, a very small portion at best. I've never really thought of it but shooting from the hip i suppose this effect can be parted in several categories. 1) people who are not sick in the usual meaning of the word, meaning they feel bodily pains, there are no bodily problems to be found. They need human attention, love in my opininon. In bad cases this can become a sickness in itself. If that is the case family doctors can give a plecebopill, and feel that that is the best thing to do. These people have no bodily disfunction so there is no question of mind over matter 2) people who have real but not severe bodily problems, on some of them a placebo would work, on others not. Might be the spontaneous reaction of the body, might be belief in the doctor might be that selfhealing ( in the conventional meaning of the word, just the body, repairing itself) is quickened. I think these two are the biggest part of the group 3) and then it becomes interesting,I know of a reported case of brainsurgery, i admit i don't remeber exactly but it was a new technicque for alleviating i think bodytremors caused by a to low function of one of those peanuts in the brain. Because new they made a controlgroup. These people were operated upon, but didn't get the real treatment, just a little hole in the head. Knew that beforehand, some peole will get the real operation, others wont. Everybody of the controlgroup will get the treatment if it is deemed effective. One lady of the controlgroup was really much better after that....and happy, yes, i got the real treatment. That's interesting. But what changed was the severity of the tremors, not the imparted brainfunction, so i doubt if i will call that mind over matter. And later she had the real operation done. 4)people who heal themselves from severe, incurable diseases. to me, that is (conscious) selfhealing. That can be called mind over matter. But, even thouhg i've not made a study of it. I think that that is not the placeboeffect but praying, affirmation, consciousness is involved there. And it's a miracle!! makes me happy, especially as i'm going to be one of them :-) If I am blindfolded then told my skin is being stroked by nettle leaves then I will come out in a rash, even if it were really dock leaves. interesting, only thing i can say about it is i know that the nocebo-effect is much stronger than the placeboeffect. kind regards BES

you sound better now, that's good. Proceed carefully

yeah, you're hearing it right. and I did go to women's cultivation, that was one of the reasons to join this club

well spoken!

excuses accepted, no offense taken and no offense intended the 'what' of what you wrote is bit beside the point i think, but the keywords you used touched home-base, ooow.. That said, the way you put it was, indeed, too blunt. That can cause people to eh...get in their corner and not to come out of it again. The " that's not me reflex.." That's not what you wanted obviously. In my job ( some time ago, I'm without one now) I use kind of the same intuition. When you look at patterns and words used. You can intuit what is beyond the question at hand. I mostly try to just mention those keywords, carefully. Like: I hear you say these things, does that mean something to you? and then going along with the ' topside question' When they're ripe for it people will come back to this ' keywordquestion' because they know, deep down, there's something to be won. When they're not ripe for it, best leave it alone ( or you'l get to be thrown in the pit ) I hope I explained well what I meant, I find I have more difficulties to express myself in English than I expected.

thanks for another warning, I hesitated to join the forum because of that wild-west, I've been reading for some weeks as a guest. It's good there is a pit, it's also good that the whole business of the mindf***g TTBs is there. Gives another vision on what actually happened... But there seem to be some balanced and knowledgeably people around here too, so I took my chance . As I understand your advice, it is good and can be generalized. Since I've been fiddling around with energy things happen, new sensations etc. first reaction is indeed, to limit it to energy phenomena. But now i read your post i think. Energy is a new factor, but body, mind, emtions and that new factor interrelate to each other, so keep a broad vision of what things can be. When it is not clear, it might reveal itself later. The later I know to be true about seeing things. At first it freaked me out. Then I wanted to know what it means. By now it feels like, most of the time the meaning reveals itself spontaneously, when not, time will come to make it clear. nothing to bother about.

thank you Bluemind, if it is the same as MCO, it doesn't need theoretical explaining anymore

and exactly that is where your story is helping me right now, the road is hard at the moment, it will take a long time before I'm well again. I accept that, but at that time the learning of keeping your spirit up ain't easy. thank and you too, success with learning how to keep your spirit up in hard times. Today, I see it as a lesson to be learned, BES

I like this post from Daeluin very much, I don't know anything about all the chinese wisdom of chi and what it can do for the human body and soul. But I'm very interested. At the same time I find I'm happy my teacher doesn't tell us a damned thing, he looks at us, smiles and says: "Just feel what is happening inside." And when you're on the verge of something, he gives a hint as to how to proceed. I see what he can do and I know he's willing to teach anybody of us that is willing, working and humble. On our tempo and starting level. For me, all strange kinds of energetic experiences began about 3 years ago after I had forgiven someone what he did to me. 30 years ago. I was just reading in 'the way of the golden elixer', thanks to the one who posted that, nice forum! and I read: "In the way of superior virtue, the state prior to the separation of the One into the Two and into multiplicity is spontaneously attained, and the fundamental Unity of the precelestial and the postcelestial domains is immediately comprehended." for me that sums it up nicely. But I would still like to know what the word/abbreviation SHO means, BES

even though some parts of this discussion are going over my head, other parts I find very interesting. Could someone please inform me about the meaning of the word/abbreviation SHO? thanks

I admit to a suspicion that scientists in general think along the lines of humans are stupid creatures. But what I miss in talking about the placebo-effect is that it is not limited to the person who gets it described. The family and friends are involved in it. simple example, worried mom goes to family-doctor with very sick small child. Doctor has a comforting attitude, describes medicine, now you'll get well. Worries mum are lessened and this will surely have an effect on the child.

thanks for the warning, but it's just like the real world I suppose