Bindi

Is ego transcendence considered to be the final stage before enlightenment? I’ve included definitions of ego transcendence below, which may need redefining. Ego-transcendence: 1. The act or condition of going beyond ego or egoity, as in love, service, non-egoic discipline, or undivided attention for another. 2. An evolutive practice or technique which involves moving beyond prior limitations. This technique is known as essential for spiritual and psychological progress: see SADHANA. 3. A state or condition in which spiritual ecstasy is experienced by virtue of the release of a spirit-being from the confines of ego and egocentrism. 4. Any experience or process through which the spirit-being comes to know itself as it is, i.e., spirit and not ego or lower mind. http://soulprogress.com/html/Glossary/EgoTranscendenceGlossary.html

I’ve been thinking about ego in relation to a dream I had decades ago, of a large vine growing on a pergola like structure. In the dream, I at first unhooked the vine’s tendrils from the roof of the structure, and when I had done this the structure started to lean and fall but I pushed it upright again. I take the tendrils to be the first emotional hijacker – (for me fear), and the structure to be ego, which was loosened slightly but which I quickly reinstated. I then unwound the vine’s branches from the structure, which I see as again loosening more emotional hijackers, again only to a certain level, and the structure again started to lean, and I again pushed it upright. So my ego structure was again loosened, but not enough, and quickly reinstated. Finally I came to the trunk of the vine, and it had grown up thick and entwined with the central supporting post of the structure. It was impossible to really see where the vine trunk ended and the structure started, they were so completely merged. I understand this to be my ego structure so closely entwined with my emotional hijackers such as desire and anger, and my persona, and other ways of being that I identify as ‘myself’, that it becomes almost impossible to sort out what is ego structure and what is self. In the dream I tried to prise the trunk and the structure apart, and I managed to the extent that the structure did start to lean and fall, but this time I didn’t try to push the structure back up, and as it fell the weight of the structure falling ripped apart the structure from the trunk of the vine. Then everything fell down, the structure and the vine, both disappeared, and in its place there was a fresh young vine growing, and in this moment in the dream I realised that the structure had never supported the vine, the vine had always supported the structure. So those deepest self identifications with ego were separated out from the ego structure, and ego finally wasn’t reinstated, and in the dream I was able to see that ego only existed in its relation to my emotional hijackers and persona and ‘self’, and once sufficiently separated the ego structure became unnecessary, as did my emotional hijackers, my persona, and other self identifications, leaving the fresh young vine which I associate with my ‘true Self’ free to grow unhindered, and with no need to reinstate ego. Thinking about this dream has brought me to think that there may be no actual ego battle, but instead for me a long series of loosenings and resolutions and disengagements with the ego structure on my path, and one day a last disengagement that brings the whole structure tumbling down, and the right frame of mind to just let the ego structure keep falling in that moment.

The Kundalini Syndrome Theorists within the schools of Humanistic psychology, Transpersonal psychology and Near-Death Studies describe a complex pattern of motor, sensory, affective and cognitive/hermeneutic symptoms called The Kundalini Syndrome. This psycho-somatic arousal and excitation is believed to occur in connection with prolonged and intensive spiritual or contemplative practice (such as meditation or yoga). It might also occur spontaneously as a result of intense life experiences or a close encounter with death, such as a near-death experience (Greyson 1993, 2000; Scotton, 1996; Lukoff, Lu & Turner, 1998; Kason, 2000). According to these fields of study the Kundalini-syndrome is of a different nature than a single Kundalini episode, such as a Kundalini-rising. The Kundalini-syndrome is a process that might unfold over several months, or even years. If the accompagnying symptoms unfold in an intense manner—that de-stabilizes the person—the process is usually interpreted as a Spiritual Emergency (Grof & Grof, 1989; Lukoff, Lu & Turner, 1998). Interdisciplinary dialogue within these particular schools of psychology has now established some common criteria in order to describe this condition (see references below). Motor symptoms are thought to include tremors, shaking, spontaneous or involuntary body-movements and changes in respiratory function. Sensory symptoms are thought to include changes in body-temperature, a feeling of energy running along the spine or progressing upwards in the body, a feeling of electricity in the body, headache and pressure inside of the head, tingling, vibrations and gastro-intestinal problems. Cognitive and affective symptoms are thought to include psychological upheaval, stress, depression, hallucinations (inner visions or accoustical phenomena), depersonalization or derealization, intense mood-swings, altered states of consciousness, but also moments of bliss and deep peace (Sannella, 1976; Greyson, 1993 & 2000; Greenwell, 1995; Scotton, 1996; Kason, 2000). Within the mentioned academic traditions this symptomatology is often referred to as the Physio-Kundalini syndrome (Sannella, 1976, Greyson 1993; 2000) or Kundalini-experience/awakening (Scotton, 1996; Lukoff, Lu & Turner, 1998). A roaring noise or other loud auditory hallucination have also been reported (perhaps related to the phenomenon of 'Exploding head syndrome'). Transpersonal literature emphasizes that this list of symptoms is not meant to be used as a tool for self-diagnosis. Any unusual or marked physical or mental symptom needs to be investigated by a qualified medical doctor (Kason, 2000). http://enc.slider.com/Enc/Kundalini

To my understanding the heart and the mind are subtly joined through the connection of the minor chakras on each side of the heart to the minor chakras at ajna level. This picture largely explains it. In this perspective, heart is intimately related to mind.

I personally have favoured the term ‘ego transcendence’ throughout, not ‘destroy’. I agree with this sentence “When energy and identification is withdrawn from it in a dharmic way (after it has served its purpose) then it can no longer hold sway or stay in force”, but I don’t think it dissolves, I think it must be transformed. I think this specifically because I am equating ego with a minor chakra, Makara, at Ajna level. I equate what the author below refers to as ‘Cosmic Mind’ with Upper Manas, another minor chakra also at Ajna level. To my understanding, Ajna orchestrates the transformation of both of these minor chakras. As awareness or consciousness is raised up to Makara (what I am referring to as ego), this chakra must transform, but still be present within the subtle body.

"The reward for eliminating the ego is tremendous. It has been given many names: Enlightenment, Bodhi, Satori, Nirvana, Heaven. The reward is peace and equanimity, and tremendous spiritual power. Yet the lure of reward carries its own dangers. If you should for one moment work to reduce your ego for the sake of personal reward, you will pervert everything you have set out to do, for you will then be serving none other than the very ego you are supposed to destroy. You will have fallen for the most cunning disguise of the ego - that of a permanent "soul" which you have to serve so that it can get all kinds of "spiritual" rewards, like an eternal life in heaven. Many who "dedicate their lives" to truth or a cause or religion in fact work for their own rewards. You recognize them easily by their inflated egos, and their ignorance of their own self-righteousness, arrogance and vanity." http://www.taoism.net/theway/ego.htm

"Reducing the ego is not easy. You will suffer many setbacks. You often have to overcome cultural conditioning and education. You may come into situations or come into conflict with people that bring out the worst in you. In our society which runs on greed, you have to overcome a barrage of negative stimuli incessantly encouraging you to inflate your ego. The trouble is that the ego can become so much part of you that it becomes invisible to you and feels like a "natural" part of you. The worst thing that can happen to you is to accept it as a "natural" part of you, for then it will control your actions. The ego is a tricky customer, for it manipulates you in all kinds of innocent guises. Just don't let anyone persuade you that the ego is anything else but the ego. Or that it is vital. The activities for which an ego is essential are those activities you should avoid. No matter how many setbacks you suffer, stay stubbornly opposed to it. Stay committed to getting rid of it. Don't give up. Commitment is everything." http://www.taoism.net/theway/ego.htm

No not kill the ego, but transcend it, which you have consistently argued against. I just posted this article to counter your statement that 'Ego is not separated in psychology, it's self worth.' Even now you say 'It says to remove blocks and other unhelpful beliefs and to 'strengthen' the ego first,' but it says more than that, which you have ignored, and which aligns with Eastern philosophy and religious traditions. "The overriding therapeutic objective is to disidentify from the restrictions of the ego personality and to align the personality with the total self, to facilitate a more congruent, functional expression of one’s existential nature." There's a lot of work involved in this. Of course you can choose not to do this work, but maybe you don't need to be so dismissive when other people choose to see this work as necessary.

The field of psychology is an awfully big field. Maybe you just have to choose a more appropriate therapist.

Karl, you play devil's advocate here, which always ensures a constant flurry of alternative opinion around you. Not quite devil's advocate though, because I think you truly believe what you argue for, which seems to be a pretty typical Western new age fallacy, the idea that 'We are already perfect'. What is it about some people that makes them embrace spiritual 'fast fixes', believing that they can arrive at the destination before even setting foot on the path?

Persona is the interface that begins to be developed as a child between our needs and desires and the world, it is the way we attempt to manipulate the people around us into giving us what we feel we are lacking. Breaking down this unconsciously developed interface and rebuilding it in accordance with our true spirit is the psychological part of the equation, which then allows our true spirit (which of course has never changed) to be the motivator of our persona.

I wouldn't choose to accept my subconsciously motivated ego without prejudice, leaving it free to weave its delusions at will. I'd prefer the long way around. I think the potential rewards of ego transcendence more than justify the extra energy required.

I use the word persona in the psychological sense, ie. (in the psychology of C. G. Jung) the mask or façade presented to satisfy the demands of the situation or the environment and not representing the inner personality of the individual; the public personality (contrasted with anima ). I mean mature persona as having broken down this façade that was created without awareness from a very young age, breaking it down on purpose as an adult, to create a new persona formed with awareness and thus in tune with inner reality and spirit. It is this persona that I am suggesting has no need for ego delusions.

How about replacing the words 'healthy ego' or 'sense of self worth' with 'mature persona'. So it is the mature persona which recognises the reality of the situation, and which doesn't have to be destroyed, that is immune to the delusions that ego promotes. Thus the whole ego can be transformed/transcended, through the insight of mature persona, which knows its own true value and has no need of ego's delusions.

I agree it is an important point, and I question whether healthy ego is possible or if healthy ego is another function separate from ego, what I am calling 'a sense of self worth'. Can ego have a dual character? If unhealthy ego transforms into healthy ego, then where is the need for transcendence, transformation would seem to be enough. So my question is 'is the nature of ego dual, or singular and negative'.

You can see evidence of it's activity, even if you can't see where that evidence was created. In raising awareness you come across ego, not because you were looking for it, but because it was on your path. When aware of it it can be transcended.

I wonder if a strong healthy sense of self worth is actually a part of ego though? I dreamt of ego last night (following all these ego threads ) as deceptive, a 'smooth operator', not to be trusted. I'd prefer to separate these two traits out, self worth and ego.

I associate ego with Makara, a minor chakra near ajna, acting out unconsciously until awareness is raised to that level. Raising awareness from lower to higher chakras is possible.

Maybe it really doesn't matter if it's separate or not in reality, as long as ego itself is recognised.

Healthy integrated ego's because of fortunate upbringings, fortunate personalities, or because of good psychological work on oneself? And is a healthy ego still deceptive, or does it give an honest appraisal? It is also an irony that a strong healthy ego still needs to be transcended.

To me ego is actually mad, it exists to endlessly flatter and compliment our persona and is shamelessly deceptive in this regard as it disregards the actual reality of situations - we are not always the best, not always in the right, not always successful, but even in defeat ego will always be there whispering in our ear how to reframe our loss, blame someone else, justify, simper, fawn, stroke. I see ego as the biggest fan of the persona and the sense mind.

I was bewildered for a moment, but I liked it. Off topic. May be deleted

Thanks dawei, like magic