Bindi

Is the starting point of the association between Neidan and immediate realisation based on Liu Yiming’s interpretation of the passage in the Daode jing, sec. 38, ”superior virtue (shangde) takes no action, and does not employ examining or seeking; inferior virtue (xiade) takes action, and its operation is unceasing.”

Thanks SoH, but I still can't find any reference to direct realisation in any neidan text or description of neidan, every reference I come across describes gradual cultivation with specific stages, can you give me more information about where to find this concept in neidan?

I haven't heard of direct realisation in neidan or alchemy before, if I wanted to look into this idea can you tell me what to look for specifically, or give me a link, doing a word search on 'direct realisation of both Xing and Ming' didn't lead me anywhere much. Thanks.

This seems patently true for traditional neidan or alchemy, perhaps what is meant by these words just needs to be defined clearly.

What if the mind as we know it can be reformed, not dismissed as illusory or monkey mind and ignored. When mind is educated by instructions from a deeper level, it can learn to see the illusions it labours under, and it can come to understand its role in relation to the Eternal Self. A cleared mind should be under no illusion that it is the true identity, to me though it plays a vital role in the process of slowly shifting our perspective from duality to non-duality and the perspective of the Eternal Self.

I think my mind is doing the looking and the unhooking of itself from identification with the 5 koshas/sheaths.

Allowing that we have accepted that the false self/true self essence dichotomy is real, then the only difference in practices seems to be how this dichotomy can be resolved in favour of the true self essence. Ramana seems to suggest that by looking only at the false self this false self can be dismantled bit by bit until it is eliminated, and I would fundamentally agree with this position.

In terms of making a comparison, is this definition of Advaita Vedanta reasonable in the first place? Is moksha equated with only bliss and nothing else in Advaita Vedanta? "When avidyA is removed, the individual knows his own Self (Atman) to be brahman, so that there is no more world and paradoxically, no more individual. Here, the Self alone IS. Removal of avidyA is synonymous with brahman-realization, i.e. moksha." Also Tattva Jnana - the knowledge of the absolute - is posited as the method of Advaita Vedanta, but isn't it actually jnana yoga, or self-enquiry? "Jnana yoga, where Jnana means wisdom, knowledge or discernment of what is good (godly) and what is bad (devilish). Jnana yoga is the path of wisdom and jnana meditation is many-faceted."

What about http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/42456-xiao-yao-pai-xiantian-dao-yin-shu-official-thread/page-11#entry720176

Awakening and Raising Kundalini Safely, Rapidly, and Blissfully! Effort isn’t necessary In addition to raising kundalini, Divine Openings initiates or deepens spiritual enlightenment, reconnects and upgrades your DNA, lights up your light body, wakes up your full power, ignites your Divine Intelligence (inner genius), and resolves your "issues" -- and once you are free, you don't ever have to go back. We humorously refer to it as getting on the automatic upgrade program of spiritual awakening. Once it begins, it keeps unfolding like a beautiful lotus, in every area of your life. So you see, kundalini rising is but one minor side effect of Divine Openings. https://www.divineopenings.com/kundalini

It begins with doing, and hardly can one see a thing, when it comes [to] non-doing, all begin to understand. But if you only see non-doing as the essential marvel, how can you know that doing is the foundation? Awakening to Reality ​ I find that there can be lots of doing without getting all tied up in knots.

I perceive a number of markers that have to be passed on the way, and though I have passed some many remain ahead. The way forward tends to always be a surprise to me though, and what I think or imagine it will be tends to fall far short of the lived reality. Most of the time I have not expected any barriers and instead naively imagined a simple straightforward path ahead, but then another barrier or challenge or change of tack appears, so experience now tells me that another barrier or challenge is most likely.

When I can say I have entered the UDT I will be a whole lot closer to my ultimate destination. There have been many barriers and challenges on my journey from the LDT to the UDT, psychological, subconscious, egoic, right now the barrier seems energetic, but it might be something different just around the corner.

The final destination in my view would be some esoteric truism such as embodying one's divine self and at the same time being at one with the source, but this destination might be dimly conceived at first, as more homely and down to earth steps would be needed initially. Lesser destinations such as psychological health and ego awareness would seem more appropriate to me when starting out.

What's wrong with a destination being the objective?

Some cautionary words by the Indian sage Sri Aurobindo to his disciples, referring to what he called “the Intermediate Zone, a dangerous and misleading transitional spiritual and pseudo-spiritual region between the ordinary consciousness of the outer being and True Realisation”.

Certainly the most popular view Nonetheless, if logic (plus a bit more) takes me to the gate, then I've achieved everything I need to achieve. I don't personally feel the need to pre-empt or emulate nondual perception or purity.

If it's correct to say we are still apparently bound by ego, how are you understanding “You are not bound by anything. What does a pure person like you need to renounce?"

As far as I understand it, the sixth paramita allows one to go beyond dualistic thoughts and ego-clinging, where everything is realised as a transparent display of primordial truth beyond the 'mind'. Maybe we could stick to the sutras that are attributed to the direct sayings of (Shakyamuni) Buddha as you suggested earlier, having a quick look at some of the book Dakini Teachings I found one view can be contradicted by an alternative view sometimes within the one paragraph, and with such a broad perspective anything could be quoted to prove just about anything. I certainly found a lot of material in it that outright disagrees with your quote above.

"This paramita is the enlightened quality of transcendental wisdom, insight, and the perfection of understanding... [which allows us to] go beyond dualistic thoughts and ego-clinging... and transforms the other five paramitas." Isn't this really the path to the transcendental truth, which you disavowed previously when you said:

If “the ego mind still is lodged in the center-stage of our apparent being-ness...” then wouldn’t it be correct to say we are still apparently bound by ego?

Determination: Please, Ananda, strive for the true goal, be committed to the true goal, dwell heedful, ardent, & resolute for the sake of the true goal - Maha-Parinibbana Sutta ​The fourth Paramita: 4. The Perfection of Effort and Enthusiastic Perseverance (Virya Paramita) This paramita is the enlightened quality of energy, vigour, vitality, endurance, diligence, enthusiasm, continuous, persistent effort. In order to practice the first three paramitas of generosity, virtuous conduct, and patience in the face of difficulties, we need this paramita of effort and perseverance. Persistent effort makes the previous paramitas increase and become even more powerful influences in our life. The essence of this paramita of effort is the courage, energy, and endurance to continuously practice the Dharma and pursue the supreme goal of enlightenment for the highest good of all beings. From a feeling of deep compassion for the suffering of all sentient beings, we are urged to unfailing, persistent, and joyous effort. We use our body, speech, and mind to work ceaselessly and untiringly for the benefit of others, with no expectations for personal recognition or reward. We are always ready to serve others to the best of our ability. With right effort, devoted energy, and the power of sustained application, we practice the Dharma without getting sidetracked by anything or failing under the influence of laziness. Without developing Virya Paramita, we can become easily disillusioned and drop our practice when we meet with adverse conditions. The word virya means persistence and perseverance in the face of disillusionment, energetically striving to attain the supreme goal of enlightenment. When we cultivate this type of diligence and perseverance we have a strong and healthy mind. We practice with persistent effort and enthusiasm because we realise the tremendous value and benefit of our Dharma practice. Firmly establishing ourselves in this paramita, we also develop self-reliance, and this becomes one of our most prominent characteristics. With right effort and enthusiastic perseverance, we regard failure as simply another step toward success, danger as an inspiration for courage, and affliction as another opportunity to practice wisdom and compassion. To develop strength of character, self-reliance, and the next paramita of concentration, is not an easy achievement, thus we need enthusiastic perseverance on the path. http://dharmamind.net/teachings/the-6-parimitas/

Yet stories of Buddha’s enlightenment tend to focus more on his determination than going with the flow, and this is more the determination that I had in mind initially. “There he remained, emphasizing a meditation called “space-like concentration on the Dharmakaya” in which he focused single-pointedly on the ultimate nature of all phenomena [for six years.]” “He seated himself beneath the Bodhi Tree in the meditation posture and vowed not to rise from meditation until he had attained perfect enlightenment. With this determination he entered the space-like concentration on the Dharmakaya.” http://www.aboutbuddha.org/english/life-of-buddha-4.htm/

Thanks Dwai, I did read some of the Ashtavakra Gita, and I find various descriptions of it as ‘radical non dualism’ and ‘radical unity of Universal Consciousness’ to be quite apt. At its most radical are verses such as: “You are really unbound and action-less, self-illuminating and spotless already. The cause of your bondage is that you are still resorting to stilling the mind.” “You are not bound by anything. What does a pure person like you need to renounce? Putting the complex organism to rest, you can go to your rest.” I personally tend to look at the other side of the equation, as I focus almost exclusively on the ‘causes of my bondage’ and trying to unravel these causes.