Bindi

I think he was very generous in what he had to say about Tolle's contribution to spirituality in that piece, his attitude to 'Western' spirituality in general is pretty clear though in his associated piece at https://www.christophertitmussblog.org/ekhart-tolle-money-and-kindergarten-spirituality-a-response-to-emails where he states: "Please remember that contemporary Western spiritual enlightenment mostly focuses on being in the now, a non-judging mindfulness, an end to the seeker, and a sense of oneness . You might think such teachings were deep and profound. Far, far from it. This is beginner’s stuff. What much of the West offers in the way of enlightenment belongs to the kindergarten of spirituality." I agree it's incredibly easy to not be perfect, it's the 1000's of people who claim to be perfectly realised that bother me.

Eckhart Tolle is on the Rich Man’s List. Is this the price of enlightenment?

​Is there any alchemy involved in the equation "decrease Shi Shen -> increase Yuan Shen" though? There is an interesting diagram associated with the page quoted above at https://www.wudangchen.com/blog/jing-qi-shen-transformation which I can't post here as an image unfortunately, this represents just the idea of this one school though?

I'm trying to understand why sexual energy would be considered to be the same as spiritual energy (or kundalini energy), or why all energies would be considered to be the same, I don't understand the concept without resorting to ideas like transmutation or refinement, which would make them not the same?

I kind of agree with you about this, and keeping it simple ie. the one daoist immortal spirit, it can become a matter of personal philosophy/belief/experience, whether this life progresses to an immortal spirit or whether you can jump to non-dual 'eternal awareness'.

If you are correct and a created immortal spirit remains differentiated from the 'One', then the immortal spirit remains dualistic, and just a stage towards non-duality?

This makes sense to me, with the different frequencies. And the frequency matters. A few questions... I suspect different paths create different vibration frequencies, which would appear as completely different energy patterns? How does matter relate to vibration frequency? If frequency is increased/refined in a person, this would be expressed as physical health for example? What would creating an immortal spirit look like in energy terms, the same vibration as 'the source', or still a variation, differentiated? Incease/refinement of vibration would require a very specific action as it is working against entropy?

So if someone has gone beyond all form, it may be true to say all energy is the same, but can we ever go beyond all form while we are alive? At what point can all energy is the same be actually applied to anything biological?

A slightly unenlightened list of defects which will disqualify potential students from initiation (from the Kularnava Tantra) ...

Is it resolving apparent dualities or actually transforming sexual energy though. For example, True sexual union is the union of Para Shakti that is Kundali with Atma; others do but have carnal connection with women - ascended kundalini is 'True sexual union' - is kundalini actually sexual energy then in its spiritual dimension? I am referring to energy in the world of form, not in terms of ultimate reality.

This seems to be a response to someone who said Tantra is only about kundalini and sex. My actual post was examining whether other people thought there was a difference between 'energy' (spiritual, kundalini, qi etc) and sexual energy, or if others thought all energies were equivalent as Rex seems to imply in an earlier post (below) that you and Jeff seemed to agree with, in fact Jeff referred to it as an excellent point. For the record, and just to be absolutely clear about this, I don't think all energies are equivalent, nor do I think that kundalini energy is sexual energy, this particular issue came up because I made an earlier post distinguishing between sexual energy and spiritual energy. So where do you actually stand on this issue, are all energies the same?

Perhaps we can at least agree that we do need to go beyond ego and the senses. I'm not stuck on the word 'destroy', I'm happy to go with 'let fall away' or 'let drop' or 'disentangle' etc. I only like the word 'Destroy' because it is a nice strong stance against the ego-self. The next point of contention would then be whether effort or no effort is needed to accomplish this

Tantra is very much associated with one particular energy, kundalini, and its transmission through shaktipat, and sexual energy is one of the methods used in Tantra to initiate kundalini energy. Does this make kundalini energy sexual, or is kundalini just perceived as sexual when it is felt in the lower chakras?

When identified with the ego, the Self appears other than what it is. It may appear smaller than a hair's breadth. But know the Self to be infinite. (Shvetashvatara Upanishad. 5:8-9) The supreme Self is neither born nor dies. He cannot be burned, moved, pierced, cut, nor dried. Beyond all attributes, the supreme Self is the eternal witness, ever pure, indivisible, and uncompounded, far beyond the senses and the ego... He is omnipresent, beyond all thought, without action in the external world, without action in the internal world. Detached from the outer and the inner, This supreme Self purifies the impure. (Atma Upanishad. 3) I would say ego being necessary to function in the world is a limiting belief, as is the belief that it is not possible to destroy ego, these beliefs halt the attempt to destroy ego, and with it the possibility of knowing absolute reality. IMO the function of the ego is superseded by a reconditioned mature persona developed through spiritual work. Again IMO this is the work Ramana was involved in in his years of quiet contemplation after his initial Self-realisation as a boy, after which he was unwilling or even unable to interact with people. His ego was destroyed but he hadn't yet created a new persona with which to interact with the world. After his 'heart attack' incident where the energy moved from the right side of his heart to the left side, that mature persona in him was established and became functional. After this event he was able to interact with the people around him again with ease. The ego's phenomenal existence is transcended when you dive into the source from where the 'I'-thought arises. - Ramana Maharshi Reality is simply the loss of ego. Destroy the ego by seeking its identity. Because the ego is no entity it will automatically vanish and reality will shine forth by itself. - Ramana Maharshi

Does jing = qi = shen?

These are some of the issues which we have been debating here. Fundamental differences of opinion like Papaji "did not believe fully transcending the ego was possible" will underlie his whole approach and perspective, and having a different fundamental opinion myself Papaji's perspective as well as his means and aims will always remain foreign to me. edit: I could even say that if complete dismantling/transcending of the ego isn't required, then I agree that Papaji's version of enlightenment or self-realisation is possible in a split second. But to transcend the ego completely time and effort will be required.

Is 'the eternal moment beyond time' a transient state that some experience, a taste of things to come if this state can one day be established, or is it a permanent state won in a moment without any previous work in this life or a previous life?

I would expect a 'true guru' to have completely transmuted sexual energy into a more refined energy form, therefore in his/her presence there would be no degree whatsoever of joint cultivation, and I can't see how the energy would be shared in a loop since the guru should be naturally radiating spiritual (not sexual) energy, but not taking on the presumably lower energy of the student. Guru's that connect on a tantric level are in a different category, I imagine being in their presence is just one more avenue for staying in delusion since untransmuted sexual energy is still operating in your scenario.

The story of the Flower Sermon appears to have been created by Chinese Chán Buddhists.[3] The earliest known version of the tale appeared in 1036 (wikipedia). Immediate realisation/enlightenment is not possible in my mind, the frameworks I relate to are the nadi's and the dantians, in the nadi system energy needs to travel through ida and pingala into the central nadi, this is neither quickly done nor can it be unconsciously achieved I suspect. Same with dantian work and bringing the energy up dantian by dantian, it's not quick and it doesn't just happen. Immediate 'non-dual' realisation is to me a mental state that has nothing to do with Self-realisation, The idea that all karma and all ego can disappear in a moment is the equivalent of saying all dantians and all nadis can be clear and appropriate energy flowing in a second. David Godman on Self-realisation... I don't think that there is an epidemic of Self-realization in the West or anywhere else. I think full realization is a rare phenomenon. There are certainly more people who think that they have realized the Self, but I think that they are deluding themselves.

A lot hinges on the word 'easy'. Biblical commentary states: His yoke is a 'good thing', not necessarily easy, the good or right thing can of course be the harder option, but if it gets you where you want to go then it's worth it. Also a yoke in itself is a very specific constraint used only for work and unnecessary when wandering around or grazing contentedly. True there is also the sense that what he requires in terms of work or effort is light, but personally I take this as light in comparison to the heavy burden of religious Law and strict observance that the Scribes and Pharisees had laid upon the shoulders of the people, which Jesus denounced emphatically (to put it kindly) and probably quite often. 10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? 11 No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.” Acts 15:10-11

Because choosing to not respond is duality to you?

This is a very good place to examine this issue I think. Not responding was my take on it, I read these other two responses, recognizing them as they are, and being unaffected by them, in Buddhist discussion of this episode. I agree that to not respond at all is the key, and that all previous work is towards this. what sort of responding did you have in mind?

The Kularnava Tantra makes a fundamental error IMO in assigning the cause of the ‘fall of man’ to drinking, eating and sexual intercourse. It follows that its cure for ‘the fall’ is based on this wrong premise, and as such it is equally flawed to my thinking. If you find it persuasive that’s up to you and Jonesboy, this thread can be split for you to discuss its merits if you like.

From the little that I know of this text, indicates that this is my opinion, not a source that I am quoting "a wine-drinker is different from the drinkers of ecstasy" the ".." indicates that I am referring to your quote because wine is used ritually to induce ecstasy and is not to be confused with 'just drinking wine', same for sexual intercourse, this is my opinion, my understanding of this Tantra "the union of delight is between the ascending Sakti and the presiding Lord above, and not between man and woman" again the "..." are there to indicate this is your quote even though physically it is between a man and a woman. again my opinion (your bolding). It would have been hard to tell this was a source simply because it was not a source, it was a personal opinion. The source I was referring to when I wrote "If you don't like my sources" was Andrea R. Jain, Associate Professor of Religious Studies at Purdue University Indianapolis whom you declared not credible.