Bindi

Fear is the conditioned action, arising prior to conscious awareness, not acting on that fear is the thought reaction, it relies on a conscious response to a specific manifestation of fear.

Sorry, I’m unconvinced. You choose to ‘allow’ pleasant experience instead of old conditioning, choosing this instead of that, because you have a preference for pleasant experience instead of fear. The fear undercurrent - coming from a psychological POV refusing to act on it is behavioural, but the driver of fear remains beneath the surface, unnoticed, still driving. This is spiritual bypassing. You can choose to behaviourally change each manifestation of fear, having to remember each time to allow pleasant experience instead of fear, or face the driver head on by digging into the subconscious and removing it. And fear is just the first of the emotional hijackers, there are more, all hidden, all in charge.

Forgive me for being dense, but do you mean you experienced a nondual state, which your teacher advised you to not attach too much importance to?

I do understand what you’re saying to an extent, my approach is also to untangle from as opposed to build up, but in my process this inevitably clears subtle channels which inevitably leads to an increasingly functioning subtle energy body. I suspect my sense of I will transfer completely to my subtle energy body at some point, I don’t expect it to disappear, though I don’t know this of course, I am merely making an educated guess. I do wonder if nondualists are attempting to destroy ego without having an alternative vessel prepared for ego. Nondual theory will shoot down that idea of course, but it might be true. edit to add: I am agreeing that we need to disidentify from the body and mind etc, but it is likely going too far to disidentify from the subtle energy body as well, especially when that subtle body is not fully functioning first. That would be like disidentifying from the emotional or mental aspects before they are healthy, ie. spiritual bypassing, probably one of the greatest potential errors of nondual practices. Yes I probably am asserting that, I have said you have a preference for nonduality, and that one can choose nondual methods and ways of perceiving, this is what you react to.

So many different beliefs about the Self, is yours one of the prescribed beliefs above? Or did you come to your belief independently?

Just curious, you say forgetting the self, do you have any perspective regarding the ‘higher Self’?

The "me" wanting to practice non-duality is the very illusion that non-dual philosophy is geared toward dismantling. ~ Some random nondualist.

Whenever I suggest nondual perspective is a choice you react. Manitou can say she has to remember to dive down through the conditioning, which implies making a choice, but you are very defensive when I suggest you are making the same choice. In the words of a nondualsplainer: Pointers are useful, but they become a hindrance when we fixate on them and turn them into fundamentalist dogmas. It’s easy to see this tendency when it shows up “out there” in fundamentalist Christianity or fundamentalist Islam, but it’s harder to see it in ourselves. We think we’re beyond all that. But I see this dogmatic fixation and fundamentalism happening all the time in the nondual subculture. We fixate, for example, on the notion that there is no choice, that everything is a choiceless happening, that there is no individual chooser. This is a very liberating discovery, a profound insight. But it’s only a partial truth—reality itself can’t be boxed up that way. And if we fixate on that as the whole truth, then if anyone dares to speak of “choosing” in any way whatsoever, we instantly pounce. Wrong! We tell them. We don’t listen anymore to what the person is actually saying. Our mind has already been made up. We’ve landed. We’re stuck on one side of an imaginary divide, identified with a particular formulation, ready to defend it to the death. I’ve certainly seen this tendency in myself at times—it’s quite human. It’s how the mind habitually works. ~ Joan Tollifson

Ji, chi, shen. Yes, that’s one way to put it, also LDT, MDT, UDT. Father, son, holy spirit. But isn’t the only way to the Father through the son, therefore the only way to the roots is through the stems?

Exactly, and my way is indeed to work with the leaves and branches because I believe it is impossible to work with the root first, but but I still aim to end up at the root. Sure. Yes and no, after a spontaneous experience of nonduality a person might choose a nondual method specifically to re-experience that state, another might have a nondual experience and accept that it was a taste of things to come but not an invitation to try and grasp it repeatedly. Others might fool themselves into obtaining a mental approximation of nonduality after reading the literature, but as I tried to demonstrate earlier this belief system can be shown to be shallow if/when the body starts to fail. Removing all conditioning first is a most formidable undertaking! Where the Buddhist sees muddy water and carefully lets the mud settle, ever mindful of not disturbing it, I stir up the mud and over time and with the help of extra water I clear the muddy water until its crystal clear and I can frolic about in it to my hearts content! Yes, though our choices are necessarily limited by the methods that are available to us in our search. The historical Buddha demonstrated his dissatisfaction with the choices on offer to him, and created his own solution.

Ramana spent a large part of his life in intensive meditation after his awakening at 16, I assume this was in some sort of samadhi because he had no awareness of what was happening to his body. It makes sense to me that it might have been nirvikalpa samadhi, otherwise why make any effort to meditate? Later in life he spent less time in meditation, perhaps he was more able to remain in the primal state without effort? Ramana Maharshi on Samadhi Question : What is samadhi? Ramana Maharshi : The state in which the unbroken experience of existence-consciousness is attained by the still mind, alone is samadhi. That still mind which is adorned with the attainment of the limitless supreme Self, alone is the reality of God. When the mind is in communion with the Self in darkness, it is called nidra [sleep], that is, the immersion of the mind in ignorance. Immersion in a conscious or wakeful state is called samadhi. Samadhi is continuous inherence in the Self in a waking state. Nidra or sleep is also inherence in the Self but in an unconscious state. In sahaja samadhi the communion is con-tinuous. Question : What are kevala nirvikalpa samadhi and sahaja nirvikalpa samadhi? Ramana Maharshi :The immersion of the mind in the Self, but without its destruction, is kevala nirvikalpa samadhi. In this state one is not free from vasanas and so one does not therefore attain mukti. Only after the vasanas have been destroyed can one attain liberation. Question : When can one practise sahaja samadhi? Ramana Maharshi : Even from the beginning. Even though one practises kevala nirvikalpa samadhi for years together, if one has not rooted out the vasanas one will not attain liberation. Question : May I have a clear idea of the difference between savikalpa and nirvikalpa? Ramana Maharshi : Holding on to the supreme state is samadhi. When it is with effort due to mental disturbances, it is savikalpa. When these disturbances are absent, it is nirvikalpa. Remaining permanently in the primal state without effort is sahaja. Question : Is nirvikalpa samadhi absolutely necessary before the attainment of sahaja? Ramana Maharshi : Abiding permanently in any of these samadhis, either savikalpa or nirvikatpa, is sahaja [the natural state]. What is body-consciousness? It is the insentient body plus consciousness. Both of these must lie in another consciousness which is absolute and unaffected and which remains as it always is, with or without the body-consciousness. What does it then matter whether the body-consciousness is lost or retained, provided one is holding on to that pure consciousness? Total absence of body-consciousness has the advantage of making the samadhi more intense, although it makes no difference to the knowledge of the supreme.

Perhaps the only difference is that I prefer to work on completely removing all the conditioning first, as well as establishing relevant underlying support mechanisms, so there doesn’t need to be this continual diving down. Ramana Maharshi spent years in nirvikalpa samadhi in order to be at one with the ‘Self’, in the end it became somewhat present all the time, though I suspect never quite fully.

I’ll try to explain my perspective in non-sexist terms, because I think it’s actually a most important point. In Daoist terms the Hun (spiritual, ethereal, yang) soul wants to ascend, the Po (corporeal, substantive, yin) soul wants to descend. These need to be reversed so that the Po soul rises and the Hun soul comes down, all I’m saying is that IME reversing the Po soul is the first thing to attend to. Rationally, this makes sense because the corporeal or earthly is more familiar to us, the spiritual or ethereal is the unknown. Dealing with what is within our sphere of comprehension (with you wei, self effort) leads to the spiritual soul force reversing its direction of its own accord (Wu wei).

My subtle energy body develops, but I didn’t set out to develop a subtle energy body. What happens to it at or after death I have no idea, nor is that really my interest, for now I’d like to go on until I see what a fully functioning subtle energy body does while I’m alive.

Ultimately we need to go beyond male and female, but to get to the ultimate we need to start with the female subtle forces. Sometimes I throw in a word like matriarchy because I have a slightly warped sense of humour, but I do stand by my assertion that starting with Yin is what has been missing from all the cultivation systems on offer.

Yes this is the nondual line, but I prefer to work on the subtle energy body because I think there is a fundamental problem with it that needs to be resolved. All very dual, but that’s where I’ve laid my bets. Here’s my theory for today, nonduality is the culmination of the patriarchal fix, initially emotions were suspect and then with the introduction of meditation mental activity also became suspect, until we came to the ultimate rationale that they are all illusion anyway. The new way is a matriarchal system where emotions are meaningful and their health starts to heal the entire subtle energy system, mental activity is part of the whole, and a foetus that represents our spiritual self has to be created and birthed. Edit: Just to be clear I think humanity in general has an emotional problem, and the real fix involves sorting this out.

Neidan also has different terrains and obstacles, trees, towers, mountains, passes, doors, gates, pools, wells, tubes, cauldrons, walls, chambers, houses, villages, pavilions, palaces and gardens. In neidan gates and doors are opened, they don’t disappear as such.

For a Daoist take: The Dao itself resides in the human being as the Supreme Lord of the Central Ultimate (Shangshang zhongji jun). It is the individual "self" (wu), also called Zidan (Child-Cinnabar) or Red Child (chizi). https://www.goldenelixir.com/taoism/inner_gods.html

So when you say “heart, mind, and body”, there is no mundane mind in that equation? A lot of different practices will give a lot of different results, each according to their own practice. I recall one practice develops a hard lump in the belly, this is seen as a tangible result with associated benefits, but you and I might not see it as particularly relevant to any authentic achievement. What I’m trying to get at is that a person can be quite happy with their results, but those results aren’t objectively valuable, merely valuable to a practitioner who employs a specific method which delivers specific results. Qi has nothing to do with the mind, if you can access Qi and there are health improvements, that can be assessed somewhat more objectively. Say there is something considered incurable, for example the herpes simplex virus and the evidence of regular cold sores, if that can be removed via qi then whether you have a cold sore again or not is a non-mind assessment, it can cross over into a scientific assessment. How so if I am making a distinction between mundane mind and echoes from Higher Self? The two year old is required to listen and act on instructions, not to make decisions. The mind is used to interpret a message, not to interfere with a message. To me the higher Self has a broader perspective than my mundane mind, though I don’t definitively know where or what it actually is. I really only know that there is a voice within that is worth listening to as it has an understanding of how things are and how they need to be and a program of how to get there if we could only hear or know it. Of course As I said before I agree there is a time for wuwei, but if wuwei is instigated too early it’s like resting before the field is planted and being content with that. Perhaps it’s pleasant to rest, but I’d prefer the field to be productive and then rest. I don’t think it is analogous. The labyrinth to me is more finding the way through confusion and developing discernment as to what is necessary and unnecessary, and killing a Minotaur or two on the way. Clearly we differ in what we discern to be necessary. Truth is not in the eye of the beholder, I think there are more effective and less effective ways of climbing the mountain and beyond, which makes some paths better and some paths worse.

If your mundane mind is part of what you trust as a feedback system it would be like putting a 2 year old in charge of the cookie jar, bad judgement is inevitable. If your heart isn’t thoroughly cleansed it also is likely to mislead, your body is least likely to mislead but it’s not terribly wise. I’ve never understood the rationale behind lucid dreaming. The mind is not wise, it is entangled with ego, and lucid dreaming introduces this mind into the echo from the higher Self. Instead of listening you poison the echo with the egoic mind. What are the benefits of nonduality, being in the moment, feelings of oneness, non-judgement - if there is a labyrinth these are not the tools that will get you through it. If there is a labyrinth what you need is a map, and the wisdom and discernment to read it, mull it’s directions over and then follow those directions. What you want to connect to is fundamentally different to what I want to connect to. Your nature of mind is nondual with nothing that needs to be done, the source I want to connect to gives specific directions (albeit sometimes cryptic or metaphorical) for bringing the subtle body to its full potential.

I agree with this to a great extent, the point where I cannot do it without some Spiritual help which you are calling Christ is an acknowledgment that I am insufficient, it puts us in our place and allows the Spiritual in.

The source of information has to bypass the mundane mind, I think dreams are an accessible source for many people and if they are interpreted correctly, they can be very useful - unfortunately very few people can interpret them correctly, but it is a somewhat learnable skill, so it can be an avenue worth exploring. Having access to someone who is a medical intuitive (which is checkable) and also sees the subtle energy body (which can then be accepted on the grounds that the medical level seeing is proven) is invaluable, but there are very few of them. I wouldn’t trust any source other than these two. On a subtle body level, non-interference seems unlikely to actually develop what is necessary. Say the goal is making your way through a particularly difficult labyrinth, it’s almost impossible by trial and error, and impossible if you just sit patiently at any point within the labyrinth, the only way is with a guide who can see the way either step by step or one who has an overview of the whole thing. Nonduality seems to say there is no labyrinth, it’s a solution of sorts, but if there is a labyrinth it’s not going to be very helpful. Who would be the Self that wishes for the subtle energy body to be developed and flow according to it’s natural and authentic blueprint. Unfortunately this Self can only be heard as a vague echo, and it is easily missed if you’re looking in the wrong direction.

Annamaya kosha, not it, done. Pranamaya kosha, not it, done. So far it’s taken 5 seconds. A few seconds more and I’ll be all done and dusted. Manomaya kosha, as if, done. Vijnanamaya kosha, already noticed, done. Anandamaya, awesome, done. Abiding in Self, done yesterday. 4 elements, got it, done. Not

It’s worth a lot I refer to the kosha model because it is a good fit for my dream of the vine and the structure as the self/Self and the koshas below. But I also relate to energy and the channels as described in the Indian tradition, and there are actual points when a meaningful boundary or gatekeeper is passed, such as when the doors between ida and pingala are opened, or when the central channel is consciously entered. Passing these boundaries allows the subtle energy body to flow in ways that were previously blocked, one boundary at a time, and as far as I can understand this is the underlying structure of what we perceive as the koshas. This is the dynamic I wish to perceive and grapple with ultimately, the tiny bit of personal perspective that’s left, this is what I’m so carefully working towards. Thing is I don’t think it’s actually tiny, I think it is actually massive, just almost invisible, I take my cue from the vine trunk wrapped around the post, the post is almost indistinguishable from the vine, so it would be easy to kid oneself that there is already no post, and this is far from the truth. I suspect I am in ‘hunt it down’ mode, I want to see it so I can do something about it, and I need the right ‘spiritual’ tools to be able to do that, and I need to know when to grapple with it, and when to walk away. The wrong action at the wrong time won’t get the job done.

You said this exactly: “So, your next milepost is having non-dual understanding.” No you’re not wrong about that, but this doesn’t mean you didn’t say the above. Out of interest, do you still have delusions and obscuratiions?