Bindi

Yes, makes sense, but you can also find this sort of effect from psychotherapy and cognitive behavioural therapy even nondual therapy if you’re inclined. Dwai practices some sort of martial art that develops ‘fajin’, this is not a nondual accomplishment. Mostly the nondually awakened wouldn’t have any interest in fighting you, for a whole bunch of nondual reasons.

Like I said previously, no “physical and subtle body health and new abilities”, just a different reaction to memory loss and chronic pain through a changed perspective. Memory doesn’t improve, and physical health doesn’t improve, and the subtle body doesn’t suddenly start developing in a wuwei kind of way. Psychologically I think there might be reduced anxiety and depression, again from a changed perspective, and fundamentally maybe this is all that people want, because it does seem to ease the suffering that we inevitably have to live with otherwise.

I thought absolutely nothing changes in nondual awakening other than nondual perspective or realisation or whatever it’s termed???

Sure not the desire to see things as whole but the accomplishment of seeing things as whole, if you say it often enough I'll get it But I also feel that different nondualists come at it in different ways, I think some are actively trying to see in a nondual way, and its that view that I'm most often referring to. The plastic nondualists perhaps. Does your tradition encourage actively separating things out though in the pursuit of wholeness? I posit separating mental and emotional streams as an efficient way of deconstructing ego clinging, I haven't really seen this approach in any 'spiritual' philosophy or path, not that I know of at least, the opposite is true more often, emotions and thoughts are illusory, don't engage with them.

Illusory is a problematic word I think. The egoic structure is maybe unnecessary more than illusory, it does exist on the mental level but it needn’t exist. Illusory allows people to leap to the conclusion that it is not actually there, which does no dismantling of the egoic structure. It isn’t easy to do, agreed. I posted a blog earlier which suggested marinating in a feeling, and another phrase is “Radical Acceptance”, this is from a Buddhist perspective here. The author is focusing on radically accepting desire, but I think that can be more generalised to fear, shame, and any other feelings likely to have been divorced from prematurely from a young age. I have always done a two stage process, at first driven by what material was produced to work on via my dreams, now more on what comes up in daily life - understand the issue mentally and then let that go and feel the feeling with no mental interference. Treating each thing as a complex is ineffective IMO. It’s interesting to me that where nonduality wants to see everything as a whole, actually working on the egoic structure is facilitated more by dissecting it into parts.

Ego is a very persistent illusion though, and it is taking me some time to dismantle it. I’m working directly with resolving the emotions and the thoughts that are present, instead of just letting go of thought per se.

If we knew the perfect spiritual blueprint and how to reconcile it with imperfect existence we would know what is ultimately most important to know IMO. This is similar if not the same as wuwei, “an ancient Chinese concept literally meaning "inexertion", "inaction", or "effortless action". I completely agree, I need to be disidentified from the “doer”, though there is still a doer and a part that directs the doer, but they get on without me, I am neither the director nor the doer. Perhaps contrary to most though, I don’t think wuwei is the path, more the result of very specific effort. Once wuwei is reached, the next thing unfolds without effort.

From ‘New Age’ in Wikipedia: Non-Western and indigenous criticism New Age often adopts spiritual ideas and practices from other, particularly non-Western cultures. These may include "Hawaiian Kahuna magic, Australian Aboriginal dream-working, South American Amerindian ayahuasca and San Pedro ceremony, Hindu Ayurveda and yoga, Chinese Feng Shui, Qi Gong, and Tai Chi"[391] The New Age has been accused of cultural imperialism, misappropriating the sacred ceremonies, and exploitation of the intellectual and cultural property of indigenous peoples.[392][393][294][394] Indigenous American spiritual leaders, such as Elders councils of the Lakota, Cheyenne, Navajo, Creek, Hopi, Chippewa, and Haudenosaunee have denounced New Age misappropriation of their sacred ceremonies[395] and other intellectual property,[396] stating that "[t]he value of these instructions and ceremonies [when led by unauthorized people] are questionable, maybe meaningless, and hurtful to the individual carrying false messages".[395] Traditional leaders of the Lakota, Dakota, and Nakota peoples have reached consensus[392][397] to reject "the expropriation of [their] ceremonial ways by non-Indians". They see the New Age movement as either not fully understanding, deliberately trivializing, or distorting their way of life,[398] and have declared war on all such "plastic medicine people" who are appropriating their spiritual ways.[392][397] Indigenous leaders have spoken out against individuals from within their own communities who may go out into the world to become a "white man's shaman," and any "who are prostituting our spiritual ways for their own selfish gain, with no regard for the spiritual well-being of the people as a whole".[398] The term "plastic shaman" or "plastic medicine people" has been applied to outsiders who identify themselves as shamans, holy people, or other traditional spiritual leaders, but who have no genuine connection to the traditions or cultures they claim to represent.

Agreed, ego rules in duality, likely the prime motivator often enough. If ego is the fundamental problem, it needs to be defined. This is one definition of ego: The ego is the identification of your awareness-consciousness with your physical body, emotions and thoughts. In order to express itself in the outside world, your awareness-consciousness needs the physical body, the emotions and the thoughts, and identifies itself with them. This creates the ego… …there are also shared, bigger egos – group egos, with which people identify. These are also called aggregate egos. Most people tend to join and be a part of a larger ego. They might do so consciously and intentionally, or it can be part of their upbringing and education. This larger ego could be their family, religion, workplace, neighborhood, political party, city, country, and even their football or basketball team… …the same life force pass[es] through all egos, activating them and giving them life. Identifying with the ego, makes you see the differences, but identifying with the life force, lets you see through the ego, and perceive reality as it is – one and undivided… …How can you rise above the ego? Through inner work, getting out of your comfort zone, becoming tolerant and considerate, learning emotional detachment, and through some other means, such as concentration and meditation. https://www.successconsciousness.com/blog/spirituality/what-is-the-ego/ This definition is workable for me, really my problem starts with the methods used to remove ‘ego identification’. I don’t fully agree with any of the above methods, and I feel nonduality is often, though not always, a current aggregate ego that produces the right phrases but has not actually dismantled ego identification. I also question the idea that ‘nothing needs to be done’, the subtle energy body does require certain subtle pathways to be enabled, not from an ego standpoint but from a ‘spirit’ or soul or insert whatever word you like standpoint. I believe Nonduality curtails this work by short circuiting the need for it within its philosophy.

And fickle mind and needy ego have been vanquished since?

If a whole house is built on this ‘feature’, can it really be called an add-on? It just wasn’t declared, so you never noticed.

I refer once again to my dream of the vine and the structure, the trunk of the vine and the post are indistinguishable from each other and yet have to be pulled apart, your author chooses yoga, I choose my method, and I have seen that my method will work for me, and the job will be done properly and once and for all. The only way I could make a mistake is by rushing to the outcome before finishing the initial work. edit to clarify: “The ego is a chameleon which takes any colour, any shape, according to the atmosphere in which it lives. It knows its tricks very well, much more than all the understanding can work. It is a chameleon in the sense that it can assume the colour of the atmosphere in which it lives, so that we cannot detect it or discover it. It is one with the atmosphere, so how will we discover it? It has taken the same shape, colour and value of the conditions under which it is living, so it cannot be attacked.” This is the trunk and the post, indistinguishable from each other. What I know is that the ego can also take on the cloak of nonduality, it assumes the colour of the atmosphere in which it lives… so that we cannot detect or discover it… What better place to hide?

“Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the way that leads to life, and only a few find it.”

Wasn’t kundalini the in thing a few years ago, everyone had to be kundalini awakened and those that weren’t were the spiritual neophytes, the simpletons and the lesser ones who just didn’t get it. No one seems to be talking about kundalini anymore. Do certain awakenings just go out of fashion?

Also btw Jesus used his siddhi’s and not for entertainment, and I’m referring especially to his healings. Perhaps some subtle abilities can be parlour games, in fact I’m pretty sure this is true, but I’m not in the business of developing parlour game tricks. I remember @dwai you were very taken by Jeff’s astral tricks, you thought they were the meaning of life with some small pre-hug tweaking, this is not the sort of siddhi I have in mind. I prefer the siddhis where someone can see directly what is in someone’s heart, or physical body, or subtle body, or can heal miraculously. These are the people I’d listen to.

A quote is making him into a caricature? This is what Stirling believes, you also believe some version of it, I have clarified this with you before, subtle body work to create an immortal body is dual, this is what you believe, I’m not making fun of it in any way. I am merely stating that his realisation and your realisation are not meaningful to me because they don’t have room for subtle energy body work or outcomes. Indeed his realisation and yours are like a cummin seed to me, not satisfying at all, I’m merely trying to explain why. The above is one reason amongst others. Did you think I should have been being educated by stirling’s ‘wisdom’? The longer this thread goes the more I understand why nonduality as presented by stirling and you are anathema to me. But I’m not against nonduality in principle, it’s a fine thing when it happens naturally, it just isn’t happening naturally in many cases. I also don’t think nonduality is the full meaning of life that you and stirling and maybe others take it to be.

Do you mean an example of rejection of physical, mental, emotional or subtle? Stirling states “What is MCO? Either way, a discussion on this topic is really unimportant... siddhis in general are just entertainment really - not a path to anywhere” therefore I reject stirling’s philosophy/realisation, as siddhis are based on subtle body development, and I don’t dismiss their value.

Perhaps I am just rejecting any philosophy/realisation that doesn’t value the physical body, the emotions, the mind and the subtle body.

Very broadly, didn’t Gautama stand by not-self, where Hinduism in general looks for the Self? I thought this was the irreconcilable difference.

Do you really think your nondual realisation = enlightenment = non-returner = Christian sainthood = immortality? I think different methods will actually produce different results, and each can say they were successful within their own tradition to a greater or lesser degree, but each realisation is not the same. There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Stirling, than are dreamt of in your philosophy. Funny thing is you too have some very fixed ideas. You don’t have the understanding to make a supposition about siddhis, yet you’re very quick to dismiss them. Yes I’m pretty clear about it.

Seconded

I said I’m never going to try the nondual view. I’m never going to choose nonduality, all I will ever choose is to work with the restrictions on nonduality. To choose the nondual view or try to have that perspective is deeply inauthentic IMO, and leaves this sort of nondualist full of dual foibles which is not a good look.

True, what I’m now happy to call Mind/spirit is leading me through the process but only to an extent, I have found IME personal guidance falls short unless you’re that one or two in a hundred billion, and it’s understandably rare to be one of those. Wonderful! Qi is a deep subject indeed, and it is qi and the subtle body that need special skills to navigate IMO. It is in this field that one can start a fraction off course and end up miles from the goal, I think this is ultimately the hardest nut to crack, and TBH I can’t blame people for not even trying because it’s almost impossible to get right without 100% correct guidance.

I agree but not Buddhism in general, just mahamudra and Dzogchen I think.