Bindi

I do understand that a state of mental stillness is pleasant, I experienced such a state for a few days, thoughts appeared but flowed away quickly and naturally and seamlessly, but when this state came to an end I saw a single thought that got trapped and lay on a floor that had been apparently reinstated, I watched as a few more thoughts piled on top and very soon I was back to my normal mind, it was as though a momentary opening in the bottom of a channel that collected thoughts had closed over. But this isn’t the fundamental light that I’m referring to.

I have come across the word jyoti that refers to what I’m thinking of: Jyoti ज्योति, jyoti "light", "radiance", "flame", "brilliance", "brightness"; "luminary", "celestial body" This is the light that fills the universe; the light of our consciousness. Also, jyoti is a burning light in lamps (dipas) in Indian temples. In Hindu texts, the prefixing "jyoti" indicates the divine origin of the described objects, phenomena, deities, in other words, appeared from the divine light — the original source of creation. The question remains though, is it literal or figurative, I tend to think literal, as I have come to believe that all ‘spirituality’ is based on physical states, even if that physicality is made of subtle energy.

Like in my quote from Gopi Krishna, after his kundalini experience settled down he was able to see a fundamental light everywhere including within himself, so it may well be possible to see this fundamental thing with a new evolutionary sense developed.

You say the “emptiness” is always underneath our perception of form, but below you state that it is completely visible to anyone who has been shown what to look for. As you are equating the Dao with emptiness, I would then ask in what way is the Dao visible?

Fair ‘nuff, I’ll report if things go awry 🙂

Specifically in relation to karma, I have come to believe through personal experience that this is exactly kundalini’s role in the central channel, I believe that kundalini is the only way we can resolve all karma (in an orderly way following natural laws), and that resolving karma in the central channel via kundalini rising is the natural next step after first resolving the mental and emotional complexes that we are weighed down with from this life. In this approach there is no danger of overwhelm, and only a teacher who inappropriately meddles with a followers kundalini could create an overwhelming karmic situation.

I understand this to mean Yin and Yang are fundamental principles of the Tao as the Tao expresses itself within the natural universe, which includes within oneself as we are part of the natural Universe. If there is a ‘beyond yin and yang’ and a ‘beyond heaven and earth’, if it isn’t expressed in the natural universe is it relevant to us here on earth, apart from as a philosophical notion?

Not exactly Vedanta but this is what “Hindupedia” has to say about similarities between “Hinduism” and Daoism: https://www.hindupedia.com/en/Daoism_and_Hinduism * Dialectical monism Dialectical monism, also known as dualistic monism or monistic dualism, is an ontological position that holds that reality is ultimately a unified whole, distinguishing itself from monism by asserting that this whole necessarily expresses itself in dualistic terms. Wikipedia

Honestly I have no idea, the most we can do is get our subtle energy body operating smoothly, and from then on face adversity in our healthiest way possible.

Sure, we have to take the steps (though there are some exceptions to us having to do some things sometimes), but the importance of correct directions is paramount. I liked another thing Gopi Krishna said, something along the lines of there are immutable laws pertaining to the subtle energy body just as there are in physics, I do agree with this, and I fully believe that if we’re not given the right information about these immutable laws then we cannot be effective in the construction of the subtle energy system. Finding the right teacher or the right system is imperative, especially if we’re willing to do whatever is required of us.

Interesting, and completely authentic experience IMO.

In my experience there can be enough preparation when the right directions are followed, either via dreams or a seer. You know the water system referred to in neidan, I have found that when that water system is set up correctly, kundalini can be likened to a nuclear reactor rod that is kept perfectly cool in water. Without the constant supply of cooling water there can only be intolerable shock.

Too bright, too hot, too painful, too anything, is to my understanding because conditions weren’t set up adequately for kundalini to rise.

Sorry it took so long to respond, I came across this description from Gopi Krishna recently, I concur with his concept of us as evolving organisms, and that kundalini is the factor that allows the next sense evolution to occur. I’m not sure this is what you were asking actually, as this is the current end game for us as embodied organisms, not just a soul body, but this is all I’ve got! Thinking across disciplines and philosophies, Krishna’s light seems highly likely to be the Shen referred to in Daoism/Neidan. Also the “Stupendous intelligence that I can sense but never fathom, [which] looms behind every object and every event in the universe, silent, still, serene, and immovable like a mountain” sounds remarkably like the Dao.

I think all inappropriate judgement would cease if someone sorted through all their emotional and mental baggage, thereby absolving themselves of any further need for ego to protect themselves - and I think this is actually possible to achieve.

From the same source that I quoted previously, there was also this paragraph. When the mind, having pure sattva as its characteristic remains attending to the aham sphurana, which is the sign of the forthcoming direct experience of the Self, the downward-facing heart becomes upward-facing, blossoms and remains in the form of that [the Self]; [because of this] the aforesaid attention to the source of the aham sphurana alone is the path. When thus attended to, Self, the reality, alone will remain shining in the centre of the Heart as ‘I am I’. Bhagavan included the full text of verse 18 and 19 of Ulladu Narpadu Anubandham after ‘downward-facing heart’ in the original Tamil, but to include them again here would make the text rather cumbersome. However, it is clear that he was supplementing the material in those verses by saying that at the moment of realisation the closed downward-facing bud turns upwards, blooms, and remains in that state. So, there are two key things that happen at the moment of realisation: the ‘tiny hole’ opens and remains permanently open, and the inverted bud turns upwards and blooms. I’ve been thinking about this for a couple of days, my mother saw a downward facing bud in my heart area a couple of years ago, she saw it turn upward, she saw the exact mechanism by which it managed this action, she then saw it bloom and like a lily open and close a few times, grow higher, then change from dark red to white, open slowly again, and reveal a miniature ‘me’ sitting inside. This was over quite a few days btw, and I recall briefly chatting to another TDB member about it at the time. I have mentioned before that my mother never had any idea what she was seeing, and to be honest the only way I have been able to start cobbling together any sort of map of the subtle energy body is largely by reading what other people have seen and said about it, and trying to start seeing the big picture of it all using my own logic. What I would say in relation to the above quote and how it relates to my path, is that this was not my realised Self, though perhaps it was an aspect of Self that hasn’t been realised yet in some way, perhaps the hole that he mentioned didn’t open concurrently, but what Ramana says at least leads to some small possible piece of this puzzle being explained in the slightest way. Just hearing that he has seen this helps me in a way. But just seeing some part of the subtle body isn’t even the final word, as understanding what it means in reality can only be done with the best information currently at hand and very strict logic. An analogy might be a person seeing something through a microscope when it was first invented, and really not having a clue about what they were seeing, but over time and with a lot of people adding information to the puzzle, things will get named and how things actually work at a microscopic level will start to be understood. I relate this snippet precisely to explain why I am highly cynical about general claims of awakening and enlightenment and realisation from people who aren’t talking about these things and deny the existence of this level, preferring concepts of realisation beyond all physical and subtle levels of oneself.

The way I see it kundalini doesn’t naturally rise above the heart centre unless it is interfered with by the mind and hard methods, until it is meant to. What I do agree with is that something important happens in the heart centre associated with kundalini. My feeling from reading this is that Bhagavan is describing a real process, not something metaphorical or figurative. https://www.davidgodman.org/the-role-of-the-heart-centre-in-self-realisation/

Double post

I am aware of a higher consciousness that has the potential to actively command forces within us that are currently locked away, milling around behind closed doors waiting for orders. Nonduality doesn’t acknowledge these forces, so it doesn’t offer a way to unlock them. Nondualism is a sewn up system, any desire to shift away from it is philosophically defeated immediately as it decries desire, it is actually restrictive and if believed works against the unfolding of the subtle energy system.

Another perspective on nonduality: “In the Upanishads the [spiritual] heart is described as a secret place (guha), the cave of the heart. It is a small space, dahara akasha, in which the entire universe is held in seed form. Once we draw our awareness there we become one with all. We move from the individual to the universal.” https://www.vedanet.com/releasing-the-knots-of-the-heart-hridaya-granthi/ But… if kundalini has previously become stable at the heart level, then mundane self-consciousness identification can shift to kundalini consciousness identification there. Identification as a higher consciousness. To me nondual awareness is missing the “I” passenger, an empty unguided rocket fired off into space.

I think an authentic kundalini activation might lead to an authentic nondual awakening, I don’t think it works the other way round though. KUNDALINI AWAKENING BY SWAMI NIRANJANANANDA SARASWATI Swami Niranjanananda Saraswati is from the lineage of the Bihar School of Yoga, which he also headed for many years. He has authored several books that have been published by the Bihar School of Yoga. In one of his books – Prana and Pranayama – he talks about the experience of kundalini awakening which he calls the experience of cosmic prana. “…When the full potential of this energy (kundalini) is released, it travels up through the Sushumna Nadi, bringing about a complete metamorphosis of the individual. Cosmic prana and kundalini are synonymous terms. In awakening the kundalini, one unites with the cosmic prana. At the time of the awakening, the two forces of prana and Chitta (mindset or state of mind) assume perfect balance within the individual and become one. The mind undergoes a state of fission and energy issues forth. There is an explosion of Satya, a moment of Truth, when one sees everything as luminous. One experiences oneself in every object of the universe, every person, leaf, and rock. The realization of cosmic prana is attained and the experience of separation dissolves. People who have experienced this union are called saints or liberated beings, as they have transcended duality by taming the infinite, universal energy within the microcosmic unit. The ultimate yoga is experienced at this level, where one discovers the abiding consciousness, sat-chit-ananda, truth, expansiveness, and beatitude…“

Either you don’t understand or you’re being snide about non-duality being “apparently unpopular” since non-duality has the most powerful lobby group on this forum and is of course the most popular opinion hands down. Would it be so hard to just be honest and direct?

Isn’t this a bit of a straw man argument? You create a scenario that I never said and proceed to ridicule the entire concept. I remember I was first ridiculed by you when I first complained about @Jeff’s energy intrusions on me many years ago, I recall other people copied you then as well.

I have no doubt that you place attention on ‘the central channel’, and I’m more than willing to believe that it is calming. But it’s true I would have a hard time believing you were drawn to this particular practice because you intuited that the subtle central channel existed, and independently of all other sources you chose to place your attention there. If I’m wrong in the above assumptions, my apologies. I also understand that my post made you feel bad, but I was responding to your (I believe dangerous) over-simplification of a very complex system, based on your view that nondual realisation is equivalent to kundalini activation.

I find much of the general information about kundalini and the three main nadi’s to be worthwhile, but as you yourself said, they don’t agree on everything, and I’m certainly not going to believe one teaching over another until I have a very good reason to side with any particular opinion. In the meantime, post as much as you please from Saivite schools and sects, I’m not going to, after all, this thread is titled unpopular opinions, not popular scripture isn’t it?