Michael Sternbach

Songtsan,

The best advice I have to offer you is to take a Bach Flower Remedies combination containing:

• Cerato - Enhances the contact with your intuition (the teacher within)
• Wild Oat - Helps to seek out the way that suits you best (out of several options)
• Rock Water - Allows you to relax and let the things you need for your further development simply happen
• Vervain - Helps to use your raciness in constructive ways

That's my two cents.

There is no voice regarded as any higher state of consciousness. The voice in the human mind is what is refered to as ego, lower consciousness, reaction based.

 

If you want to purify your ego and transcend it, you skip the step of creating a healthy ego. Psychology teaches you how to create a healthy ego, to cope with negativity in this world, act appropriately and help transform negative emotions. While this is a good training for the beginning, it keeps your consciousness in the ego state and does not enable you to see beyond the human matrix, for you are still identified with your "self" as being human.

 

This voice you speak of, wants to be silenced in a conscious way. There is no spiritual awakening and still having chatter in your head. There is no audible voice in your head anymore, once you are awakened. This voice is replaced by a knowing. You then simply see and understand in an instant.

 

But also forget this conceptionalizing. This transformation requires you to put your own energy into a daily practice. So straight forget all the information again and seek transformation instead. This transformation happens gradually with regular meditation practice

 

We meditate deep enough to realize ourselves as pure awareness, this transcends the ego state. And from this place we then create in a formless, unattached and conscious way. In perfection.

I don't believe in this kind of perfection. It's just another egotistical pitfall.

It seems there are again two different schools of thinking here, in most basic terms. One seeking a "higher" state away from the physical. The other upholding that we must go into this world and transmute it. Let the physical and the spiritual merge into one. This is in fact the stand taken by Alchemy and by Taoism, in my understanding.

I never heard of that ! ... dont like the sound of it much.

Neither do I.

I know one astrologer who is using one of the Sidereal zodiacs and says that it's in fact identical with the Tropical zodiac; she thinks that the Tropicalists got it all wrong, what they see as characteristic of Aries would really belong to (Sidereal) Pisces etc. Neptune, the Piscean planet, was as a deity causing violent storms in mythology, that's why he is a good match for Tropical Aries (normally the domicile of ferocious Mars), and so on. I told her (on another forum) that, imo, she is twisting what's real like a pretzel - she did feel quite insulted. It lead to a hot debate, and my Cayce example above is actually a revised version of one of my replies to her.

I have met another astrologer in virtual space who opts for the reverse: Using Sidereal signs but assigning them the Tropical dignities, so Sidereal Pisces is ruled by Mars which normally belongs to Aries etc.

"Can't you see, this is a land of confusion..." Not really worth going into this kind of balancing act further.

Ha ha ...you dont count , because you are 'compromised' by your knowledge of celestial mechanics ... but you are the only one that answered , so;

Ah, caught in the act! But it's actually what I honestly feel from you. Not meant to deny that "internally" you may be a quicksilver Gemini Sun sign, though.

Heliocentric zodiac ? : " (Note by SRMD ) It represents the Heavens polarised on the plane of the Ecliptic, not on the plane of the Equator of our Earth, so that its North Pole is the veritable North Pole of our heavens and not merely that part of them to which the North Pole of our earth now points."

 

then there is a diagram

 

Aha, that's what you mean... Yes, Draco constellation is at the pole of the ecliptic which of course is the orbit of the Earth around the Sun if looked at heliocentrically. It's also what the Earth axis revolves around due to precession (besides the stars' proper motion), so that the pole stars rotate over long time periods. Right now Alpha Ursae Minoris is the closest bright star to the North Pole and will be there precisely around the year 2100 which I see as an important marker for the commencement of the New Age. However, Gamma Cephei will take its place by the year 3000, Iota Cephei around 5200, and Deneb in 10'000 AD.

But the North pole of the ecliptic (a.k.a. zodiac) permanently coincides with the Cat's Eye Nebula in Draco which carries the number NGC 6543 - note the four consecutive numbers! Astronomically, it has other remarkable traits as well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cat%27s_Eye_Nebula

Interesting, isn't it?

Yes, thats what I did. I dont actually know what the hell they were doing at times ... they seem to have started to set up a system and then .... I have no idea what they actually did with it ... perhaps as modern astrology became pop their members seem to have thrown it out the window and adopted the new astrology ? ... apparently their system has value according to Regardie, especially in relation to 'Secret Doctrine' - Blavatsky Vol II - but I haven't cross checked that.

Blavatsky said that once Leo was considered the first sign rather than Aries which is actually in accordance with the Greek star catalogues I mentioned above.

Now I work differently , I developed an astrological model based on the Tree of Life ... which I realised it didnt really work when applied to the individual psyche, so I changed it (outlined above). When I realised the association of Mercury Venus Mars with the 3 basic drives of psychology, that set the pattern.

This makes sense to me insofar these three planets are considered the most personal ones in astrology (besides the Luminaries which are not really planets, of course).

Now , aside from mild curiosity, I only use things that have a practical and meaningful application.

Good boy. (Edit: Assuming that you're a male.)

Great spiritual masters advice us to only assimilate what holds true according to our own intuition and experience.

Moreover, in the interest of integration and individuation, it's helpful to find activities that offer common ground for various partial selves. For example, martial arts appeal to the part of me that enjoys physical activities as well as to the part that likes to meditate; to the healer as well as to the warrior within me.

Hi Josama,

Interesting query... I would say, key is that you develop an awareness of your various sub-personalities. Many spiritually oriented people are inclined to look down at some of them and try to neglect them, but this way, what they achieve at best (or worst) is to push them deeper into the subconscious realm. They will come back, however; they may try to get your attention in your dreams, or surface in hardly controllable behaviour, physical symptoms, or via other people in your life. That's because they're all part of yourself, and they have good reasons for being.

I feel that you are already on the right track, in light of your post. By developing greater awareness of your partial personalities, you may learn to give them the room they need; you will go into them as required but won't be swayed by them as easily - that is, you will be better able to stay in touch with your SELF. In a way like an actor, identifying with what they are expressing while keeping an awareness that it is a role they're playing. They are not submerged by it and can snap out of it when it's appropriate to do so.

Various methods can be helpful here. Expression of partial personalities through writing works for many people. Studying astrology is also a wonderful way of developing an increased awareness of them as it is showing you the full mandala which is in fact your greater SELF.

yes its interesting, as I said, I do use both (and my wilder sidereal charts show the four ruling stars, other stars, maps of the constellations, usually in silver on a matt black background and use sign and planet colour schemes or collaged actual pics of the planets, I used US Naval Observatory site for planetary position - the NASA info- and have worked with various zodiacs ... but that is a trip and takes time and artistic input, and cant be sourced by one computer programme).

I like the artistic approach you are taking toward horoscope charts. And I'm quite familiar myself with the problem of not getting everything out of a chart that I am interested in by using only one computer programme.

IMO its how we look at a chart ... even with the tropical one I can see it differently to you and pull in a whole range of other associations and show how IMO the sidereal one is more valid ( dont worry, I wont ... we could do that forever ... in this case its a case of interpretation )

I'm not worried about that - but I agree, we could do this forever and a day (to be exact). And yes, astrological interpretation surely always involves some subjectivity. Otherwise we could let computers do ALL the work for us. But you can't take the human factor out the equation, albeit that's what some astrologers are trying to do, it seems, You can't take it out of quantum physics either, btw.

IMO planetary relationships are the main indicator and that doesnt change with a conversion to Sidereal. (The lower tables of both charts, ) its something else that changes

That's right. One thing that changes is the planetary dispositors in a given chart. That's why in one of the sample charts above, Venus is prevalent, in the other Mars. (I know two astrologers who try to circumvent this type of problem by using elements from both Tropical and Sidereal in one and the same delineation, but that's mixing apples with pears, imo.)

I havent gone further with this because I wanted an answer on this first;

 

Simpler than the above ... ( yep I am still wondering) ... do people see me as a Gemini or Cancer Sun sign

Well, I have thought about it and personally, I'd see you rather as a Cancer Sun sign.

Got some spare time have you ?

For this kind of things, ALWAYS.

Just be ready for the GD Solar aspect ... which makes the ecliptic not angled at 23 deg to the CE and the CP relating to the Suns axial extension, which makes the new ecliptic include non zodiacal constellations. And when you get to the formulas of Draco ... looping or jumping ....

Not quite sure what you're talking about, but I'll read your further posts with interest.

Actually, it might be easier to just start at Regulus and calculate 12 equal segments of 30 degrees around the ecliptic and watch what happens - first

Are you talking about setting Regulus at 0° Leo? Is this what the Golden Dawn was doing?

Hi Tao Bums,

This thread was inspired by the current discussion started by FraterUFA on "Alchemy - The Lost Art?" Obviously, laboratory Alchemy - appealing as it is many - is presenting anybody interested in it certain characteristic problems, a really prominent one (since times immemorial) being the question: Where do I start?

Surely, there is no lack of literature, theories, suggestions... Those who really seem to be in the know are notoriously secretive and use a symbolical language which is open to interpretations on end. Moreover, the way those symbols are being employed by one Alchemist can be quite different from how another is using them... Not making things easy for those who wish to set out on the path of the Great Work in a nitty gritty manner.

Therefore, those of you who have surveyed this topic to any degree: What are your favourite books or other sources? Please, let's keep the focus on practical here. If possible, share what you like about a certain book, in what way you find it particularly revealing or helpful.

Of course, for starters, I will throw one my own favourites into the pot called:

Mutus Liber

As this book's title implies, it avoids making those often confusing words but conveys its message in a series of beautiful cartoon-like drawings inviting a more direct contemplative approach. (Yes, I am the visual type of personality.) Some of the very few words it contains are (somewhat ironically) inviting the beholder to read it again and again. Needless to say, it is open to interpretation, too, and there are a number of commentaries available in various languages, the most practically oriented ones probably being by Fulcanelli's disciple Eugène Canseliet and especially by well-known Alchemy supporter Adam McLean. I know some others as well, but they again seem to take things more into the realm of purely psychological or metaphysical symbolism - nothing wrong with that, but not what we want to focus on in this thread.

I look forward to hearing from you Alchemists out there!

Best,

Michael

I have told you that I prefer the Tropical zodiac over the Sidereal zodiac. However, I'm not a representative of esoteric dogmatism, and I am aware that usually more than one perspective has validity to it. There is always a give and take occurring between the beheld and the beholder, and much hinges on what the latter's level of perception is attuned to.

That being said, I will proceed to give you an empirical example why the Tropical zodiac makes more sense to me than the Sidereal zodiac. Come along with me to take a look at the chart of a mystic many of you are no doubt familiar with - in both Tropical and Sidereal format:

The Sleeping Prophet Edgar Cayce.

We start with Edgar's chart in Tropical format.

We see that Taurus is quite prominent; it is at the MC and has the Moon in it, besides Neptune and Pluto. Due to this emphasis, this sign's ruler or dispositor will be expected to be of great influence in the native's life.

The planet which rules Taurus is Venus; she is in quite a significant position herself. She is in an angular house and in her exaltation in Pisces. Furthermore, she is in a stellium together with Mercury, Saturn and the Ascending Node. The Sun is in Pisces, too.

This emphasis on Pisces seems strongly in line with Cayce being not only a psychic but also so strongly a proponent of a Christian kind of spirituality. This is evident from his biography as well as from so many readings he gave, regarding their content as well as their “Biblical” language.

Esoterically, Christianity is seen as belonging to Pisces, Jesus Christ is widely regarded as the avatar of the Pisces age.

Talking now specifically about Venus in Pisces, where this planet is "exalted", therefore expected to manifest herself in particularly notable and sophisticated ways. Indeed, Cayce was continuously emphasizing Love - as understood in a Christian framework. His psychic activity was evolving around this. He was endeavouring to guide and heal people by his channelled advice, in accordance with Universal Love.

Venus and Neptune in mutual reception (for non-astrologers reading this: they are in each other's sign) highlights the aforesaid very nicely.

A few quotes may illustrate how Cayce was inspired by his Venus in Pisces in his philosophy of life:

Tips for a long life: Keep sweet, keep friendly, keep loving, if ye would keep young.

The purpose of the heart is to know yourself to be yourself and yet one with God.

Okay, now to Sidereal Cayce.



For zodiacal adjustment to precession, I choose Lahiri which is the most widely used ayanamsa by contemporary Vedic astrologers since it was declared as the official one by the Indian government for purposes of calendar calculation. There are a number of others preferred by various astrologers, but the differences are not that big and presumably don't make any difference for our purposes here.

Now, the MC and the Moon (along with Neptune) are all in Aries. This would suit an athlete, a soldier, an entrepreneur - a kind of personality with an outwardly or physically bound activity. Their ruler is Mars. His placement in Sagittarius would reinforce the planet's fiery nature.

Sorry, it's hard for me to say much more.

Having read a quite a few books about Cayce, this very dynamic Mars placement doesn't seem to be in line with the “Sleeping Prophet's” biographical data.

Of all the former Pisces placements, only the Sun still falls into this sign; he is in a succedent house, and not particularly well connected by aspects, either.

Feel free to share your thoughts and observations on this.

The Golden Dawn used it. Its in the relevant G.D. Papers. ; Book T - The Tarot (showing attributions to its zodiac - including constellations off the zodiacal ecliptic), 'The Tree of Life as Projected in a Solid Sphere.' ; " ... the teaching assigns the commencing Point of the Zodiac to the bright star 'Regulus' which is in Leo. And it measures Right Ascension and Longitude from that point ... " [ para 2 ]

 

( Leo seems a good choice mystically as well , it is a Solar order with a Solar focus ... and Heliocentric ) .

Thanks Nungali, I will look into the Golden Dawn's ideas. The "royal star" Regulus is actually one of the ancients' "four pillars" - the other three being Aldebaran, Antares and Fomalhaut. Once Aldebaran (at the time when he marked the vernal equinox) was considered foremost. But ancient Greek star catalogues start with Leo.

Leo as the first sign makes sense also insofar it is "ruled" by the Sun which in turn corresponds with the number 1, numerologically. Rather than losing many more words on this, let me present the traditional "domicile scheme."

Source: http://houseofdaedalus.blogspot.ch/2012/06/astrological-body-part-one-planets-and_25.html

That being said, it's important to bear in mind (as always when we are dealing with things metaphysical) there are various equally valid perspectives, depending on the context. Actually, I believe that the three fire signs Aries, Leo, and Sagittarius can each be seen as origins of the zodiac (which is circular anyway). I could say more about this and may indeed do so in a subsequent post.

One could use Spica as well.

I agree, Spica could be considered as a marker in a Sidereal zodiac, too.

I find it interesting to look at all these possibilities, but personally I use only the Tropical zodiac, due to the considerations given in my previous post, as well as based on my practical experience; again, I may further elaborate on this still.

That being said, my thought is that, much like the planets are "rulers" of zodiacal signs, the signs could at once be "ruled" by those fixed stars which belong to their corresponding constellations. Much like the planets, the stars move in and out of the signs, albeit, of course, at a much slower rate.

Using the stars off the ecliptic or within the zodiac is a long used practice.

Yes - as we saw, individual stars can actually be used regardless of the particular kind of zodiac being employed.

That some Aboriginal groups have myths about asterisms told in stories - in this case the stars we know as Scorpio - and the elements in those stories describe the things, traits and processes that many ascribe to Scorpio.

 

- I am running off memory here ... but, in essence ( and it may lack the appropriate 'cultural impact' * )

 

There was a young boy that had an older and very cheeky girl friend, she was a bit of a trouble maker. The old men told her to go away and leave him alone, it was time for the boys initiation into manhood. So they took him and the boys aside but the bad girl followed them to the Men's initiation ritual and hid and watched the ceremony and the circumcision ...

 

(* cultural impact ... this is more than outrageous and would warrant instant death)

 

When the men left and the boys had to stay in the circle, she waited until they fell asleep and sneaked into the circle and woke him up and wanted to know what they did to him and made him show her .

 

Becoming fascinated with the injury (it turned her on) she wanted to have sex with him with the freshly circumcised member

 

:blink: (okay its constant shocked faces in the firelight all round from now on )

 

She forced him into her and the boy screamed out with pain - awakening the guardians- they ran to the circle and saw them, the girl and boy saw them and wanted to run, but now his member had swollen inside her from the injury and they were stuck together. So she picked up the boy and he hung on around her neck and she put his legs around her waist and ran off carrying him with the men in pursuit.

 

She ran far across the desert stuck together with the boy ... to the horizon and up into the sky to get away, the men followed and threw a boomerang and throwing stick at her and .....

 

(as often happens in these stories) < freeze frame>

 

 

There they are still up there ( here they indicate the stars of Scorpio in the night sky ) the boy and girl are the two lead stars, back further are the boomerang and throwing stick and behind the men chasing them.

 

So we have , in order ; suspect sex, a bit of a trouble maker, men's business, initiation, secrecy, spying, breaking of taboos, illicit , even sado-masochistic sex, crime and punishment and a journey that ends in flight (like the Scorpio totem of the eagle ... actually keeping the Law is eagle / Mars 'business' too) . I sorta relate that to a Scorpionic story

Nice story... I wonder, did they let the kids hear it while the tribe was sitting around the fireplace? Be that as it may - yes, it's replete with Scorpio themes! Truly amazing. It's once again demonstrating that there is so much more to astrology than arbitrary projection of psychological contents on the sky, as some rationalistic psychologists would have us believe.

 

Explain your problem. Discuss it. Help me to understand it in relation to the definition posted above.

Racism - by any common definition - is far from being neutral. It is clearly ideologically tainted. A few quotes from the respective Wikipedia article may serve to illustrate.

Racism consists of both prejudice and discrimination based in social perceptions of biological differences between peoples.

Here you have it.

Among the questions about how to define racism are the question of whether to include forms of discrimination that are unintentional, such as making assumptions about preferences or abilities of others based on racial stereotypes, whether to include symbolic or institutionalized forms of discrimination such as the circulation of ethnic stereotypes through the media, and whether to include the socio-political dynamics of social stratification that sometimes have a racial component.

In sociology and psychology, some definitions only include consciously malignant forms of discrimination.

So while attempts to use racial or ethnic stereotypes in a "neutral" manner may not be considered racism by every definition of the term, the reverse doesn't hold true - "racism" does invariably refer to "consciously malignant forms of discrimination." It is such an insane way of thinking and behaviour. So much for the word that you are using and defending.

While some consider any assumption that a person's behavior is tied to their racial categorization is inherently racist, regardless of whether the action is intentionally harmful or pejorative, because stereotyping necessarily subordinates individual identity to group identity.

I don't neglect that there are general physical differences between different ethnic groups, some of which you mention in your previous post (even though we'd have to talk about "beauty" - it's true that it lies in the eye of the beholder). Yes, there are some psychological traits as well that can be seen as fairly characteristic of a certain population - even though geographical and socio-cultural influences may play a much bigger part here than genetics.

Is it by chance that the bus driver who took me to the city earlier today while keeping all the passengers entertained with his jokes and conveniently dropping them off at unofficial stops is Italian? Probably not! Do all Italians share his sunny nature? It's safe to say, no.

What I would like to highlight from the Wikipedia quote above is that "stereotyping necessarily subordinates individual identity to group identity." While Tao and Zen teach us to let go of bias and see individuals and things in their unique suchness.

I have a real problem with your narrative. Especially the remark "there is nothing wrong with racism".

I feel the same way. The part that bothers me most is the "-ism".

Check out the astronomical map around the time the first ephemeris were calculated and printed .... looks a bit like a 'natural Horoscope' ... hmmm? Then, the E.P just happened to be around the 'start' of Aries .... IMO it is highly debatable that "The constellations that were roughly congruent with the signs " Vs the signs were constructs to frame the constellations.

 

This was also poo-pooed by the astrology experts and told there was no correlation.

 

My response? ' So its just co-incidence that the signs have the same name and order as the constellations then?

It's true, however, that the constellations pre-date the signs, for all we know.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylonian_star_catalogues#Zodiacal_constellations

Answer: < koff , splutter, > No they dont ...the sign is called Scorpio and the constellation is called Scorpius

There was no difference then, you are right . Why should there be a difference now.

 

IMO it is like someone has labelled a spectrum cast on to a sheet of paper with colour names written on the paper ... the light has moved along a bit and instead of moving the labels ... we have insisted that blue is now called green and so on.

But the question remains: Which part is to be seen as the colours, which one as the labels? Also, there could be two different spectra at once (on two different frequency bands), coinciding only every 26'000 years; which one you would astrologically perceive nowadays depends on what you are "tuned into." I'm not suggesting that all the Indian astrologers got it wrong - their system seems to work for them. All I can say with certainty is that the tropical zodiac surely works well for me - as well as for most other Western astrologers.

The really weird thing is that the old modern western Tropic Ephemeris used to have a small para at the the bottom of the first intro page noting the precession and what they current conversion degrees where.

 

Now that has disappeared (perhaps as no one noticed it or used it ? ) .

I have never heard of such an ephemeris before. Already the "father" of Western astrology, Ptolemy, was clearly opting for the Tropical zodiac, and so were all his successors. If you introduce a correction to account for precession (ayanamsa in Vedic astrology), you are no longer using Tropical. (Possibly what you saw was an addition for the sake of Vedic-style practitioner?)

IF tropical astrology is a valid calculation of natal types (based on equal 30 degree segments of the ecliptic set at the E.P. ) then there should be an inversion in stats between the northern and southern hemispheres ... another thing these astrologers refused to even look at or discuss - except for one who had research underway ... that the others didnt want ti read or contribute to.

Not so. A few months ago, I was participating in a long thread about this topic on the astrology forum Skyscript. It became clear that South-American and Australian astrologers are generally quite satisfied with the Tropical zodiac the way we know it. It seems to be valid for the whole globe.

My personal thought is that the equinoxes and solstices are really the pivots the zodiac hinges on, no matter which seasons they are marking. Compare this with the wheel of the houses. Most modern astrologers see the latter as reflecting the zodiac on yet another level. The ASC or 1st house cusp along with the DESC (7th house cusp) mark the line between what is above the horizon and therefore visible, and what is below and invisible, right? The upper and the lower hemisphere are also called diurnal and nocturnal, respectively (depending on where the Sun is, a chart will be considered either diurnal or nocturnal).

To me, this is analogous (in principle) to the Sun being either in the zodiacal half in which day prevails (on the Northern hemisphere,that's Aries to Virgo, including) or night prevails (Libra to Pisces, including). But notice that, e.g., the houses 1-6 are constituting the nocturnal hemisphere, whereas their corresponding signs - Aries to Virgo - belong to the zodiacal half in which day is prevalent! (That is, only on the Northern hemisphere!)

The way I read all this: The equinoxes/solstices and the analogous angles (ASC-DESC/IC-MC axis), respectively, are the basic markers for the two wheels - notwithstanding in which direction things are moving.

In any case, the relationship between the Earth and the Sun as expressed in his annual and diurnal motions is what astrology is based on, in most fundamental terms.

Well there are different ways of working the system out . Tropical even 12 divisions based on 'fixed' E.P. do have calculating advantages ... but the northern southern hemisphere thing ??? But there are other systems ... just need to set it at a star on or near the ecliptic ... the Golden Dawn used Regulus in Leo as their starting point ... there are others.

Do you happen to have a reference for Regulus as the beginning of the zodiac? I remember once suggesting something similar or identical to Sidereal astrologers (just as a Gedankenexperiment) - and they were not happy with it at all! - By the way, there is also a Sidereal zodiac setting 0° Sagittarius at the Galactic Centre, besides other ideas,

It can be worked out taking mutilations into account ... the Sun is in the present astronomical constellation of Scorpio for only a few days, but in Libra for many more .... yet Scorpio's ... sorry ... Scorpius' lost the ends of his claws to Libra ... I mean just look at it in the sky ... you can see those stars make up a scorpion shape better when included.

 

" For some centuries before the Christian era it was the largest of the zodiac figures, forming with the Khelai, its Claws, — the prosectae chelae of Cicero, now our Libra, — a double constellation "

 

http://www.constellationsofwords.com/Constellations/Scorpio.html

In still older Babylonian astrology, Libra was known as both "the scales" and "the claws of Scorpio" as far as I was able to ascertain from Internet sources.

It might be more correct to say that traditional astrologers should not use modern astronomical constellation boundaries (which in some cases are irrelevant to the asterisms ....

 

I mean ... who is going to follow a boundary like :

 

 

Is Alpheratz part of the constellation of Pegasus or the asterism of Andromeda ?

 

 

The site that the experts said that stuff to me on a few years ago now has accepted that type of astrology and has posts about it that dont get illogically attacked now.

Astrology's framework is an expression of sacred geometry, in my understanding. Astrologers (Western or else) using the irregular constellations as background to the planets etc are rare and far between. I'm not saying that it cannot possibly give meaningful results, but it presupposes an context quite different from what is generally known as astrology.

It makes more than sense for me ... especially when tribal law here sees (for example) the traits of the asterism we know as Scorpio in the same way western astrology does .... even though there has been absolutely no contact between the two cultures when those associations were formed (and in different hemispheres ) !

Not sure what you are talking about here...

I have heard that long practice of Taiji leads to a permanent state similar to the one induced by LSD, but of course without undesired effects.

I agree that cultivation may take the place of drug consumption (including alcohol and tobacco, they are drugs, too) as I have heard of and observed cases where folks switched from one to the other. It may be the only feasible alternative for an addictive personality type.

Right, mixing, using one to understand the other does not work. In the real tradition there is no division of east and west. reality has no political boarders like the ones between states and countries. The division I was making is just as you say don't get mixed up.

 

Now we have 4 cents on the table lets see how much money we can put in the pot.

What is eastern and western culture? There are many different cultures in both of these generalized parts of the world. And there are even many more individual outlooks. It occasionally happens that I resonate more strongly with something or someone from the other vertical hemisphere than with something from my own cultural background. There is but one metaphysical reality that we all are trying to approach in our unique ways. Either something holds true or it doesn't. I like to compare and interweave all kinds of different views, as to get clearer about my own. I do feel that my soul is intimately connected with so many places and times in human history. One indication might be that I am a Swiss who married a Japanese at age 20; and I was interested in Asian philosophy and martial arts long before that. When I was very little, I asked my mum to make a samurai costume I had seen in a book for a big teddy I owned - as close as it got (it got quite close - the bear looked really cool with his multiple-layered uniform and the two swords).

Bear in mind that cultures have always been strongly exchanging and intermingling their contents. The Chinese zodiac shares a common origin with the western zodiac according to scholarly research. Likewise for Alchemy. There are many more examples, to be sure. It should be evident that once again we are at a stage when knowledge and wisdom from all times, places and fields blends and gives birth to more complete perspectives (Yin and Yang getting together, resulting in new synthesis).

Hope I didn't take any money out of the pot by my comments.

I'm sure we will find something in common to talk about eventually.

 

Do live anywhere close to Freiburg? I had a lady friend who lived there. Maybe still does. Lost contact with her.

Marblehead,

Maybe our views are complementary? (You know, Yin and Yang...)

Your question I can't answer in a straightforward manner; there is more than one Freiburg relatively nearby. Well, that's how an American would look at it, anyways! I'll PM you on this shortly as I don't want to derail this thread.

That didn't give me much to speak to.

Trying to touch base.

Or lead us further astray. Depends.

On you.

We sure know how to make life complicated, don't we?

Yep. That's why there are those neat metaphysical systems helping us to touch base.

The division into Yin and Yang is breaking the world of change down to its most basic principles, not unlike like the binary code computers are using. Then there is a greater Yin (the black "fish") and a lesser Yin (the black "fish eye"); vice versa for the Yang. Then there are all kinds of combinations of these forces as can be seen in the I-ching. Then there are "the ten-thousand things" - the manifest Universe.

From the Vajra sutra:

 

Sūtra: After the Buddha spoke this sūtra the Elder Subhūti, all the bhikṣus, bhikṣuṇīs, upāsakas, upāsīkās, and the world with its gods, men, and asuras, heard what the Buddha had said, rejoiced, believed, received, revered, and practiced.

 

End of the Vajra Prajñā Pāramitā Sūtra.

 

Commentary: After the Buddha had finished speaking the prajñā of true emptiness, the Vajra Sūtra, the Elder Subhūti, who had ten kinds of virtuous conducts; the bhikṣus, bhikṣuṇīs, the laymen, laywomen, the gods, people, as well as the asuras, who had the blessings of the heavens but not the status; upon hearing the prajñā of wonderful existence and true emptiness, gave rise to great joy, believed, accepted, and respectfully practiced the sūtra. All were as happy as if they had obtained a precious gem, and they had: the jewel of wisdom, the dharma jewel of prajñā. They believed. They lost all their desires, casting them aside. I hope that when we finish studying the Vajra Sūtra you can cast all your upside-down thoughts far away. Rid yourself of enjoyment of food. Rid yourself of desire for sleep. Banish your striving for fame. Abolish your urge to become rich. Cast all the aspects of your hearts desires to some far-away place. If you can rid yourself of the desires for wealth, sex, fame, food, and sleep, you can cut off the roots of the hells, and advance to the fruit position of Buddhahood the Eternally Bright Pure Land.

You might as well be dead.

Ooh! Mine GOTT! !

 

Someone who considers astronomy in the 'old' way ... the actual physical relationship between the planets and stars as viewed from earth !

 

Excuse me .... I am in astrological shock ... I need to go and sit down for a bit . (I have had the "best and most popular professional astrologer" / s in the world (according to them) affirm over and over that astrology "has noting to do with the stars, never did ... and never will have ! " ( yep, I am totally serious here ! ) so... sorry if I seem a bit sarcastic.

 

 

 

It's not quite correct to say that the stars have nothing to do with astrology. This is a somewhat complex topic, though. In brief:

• The zodiac basically coincides with the ecliptic (the annual course of the Sun). The 12-fold division was likely inspired by the Moon forming twelve conjunctions (new moons) in most years - hence the time periods we call months. The year started with the vernal equinox which was set at 0° Aries in Hellenistic astrology. The constellations that were roughly congruent with the signs were used for marking and naming them. At that time there wasn't really any difference between the tropical zodiac based on the seasons and the sidereal zodiac based on the constellations.
• Due to precession, the constellations were increasingly offset over time. This is when two schools of thinking developed: One of them saw the seasonal division as authoritative; this is what most (but not all) western astrologers use as their foundation up to the present day, and insofar the quote above got it right. The other school was clinging to the sidereal zodiac; in line with this, e.g. what once was an Aries Sun would most often be a Pisces Sun today. This is what Indian astrology is based on - even though not all Indian/Vedic astrologers agree on how big exactly this offset should be.
• To make things more complicated, the constellations (unlike the signs, tropical or sidereal) are not dividing the ecliptic into neat 30° segments. Some of them are considerably longer or shorter; there are overlaps as well as gaps; the constellation Ophiuchus has one of his feet on the zodiac; etc. So only very few astrologers have ever been using the constellational zodiac as such.

However, individual fixed stars were indeed an important consideration in classical astrology, and some modern astrologers are using them as well. I, for one, do consider them in any in-depth delineation; they are very significant especially when they are forming conjunctions with planets and Angles. This makes sense because astrology has the Hermetic axiom "as above, so below" at its core, so everything "up there" in the sky potentially has meaning "down here" on Earth.

A "must read" for hermeticists:

Frances A. Yates: Giordano Bruno and the Hermetic Tradition

Yates was not (officially) an occultist but a historian. Nevertheless, this is an excellent introduction to the Hermetic Universe, imo. Besides Bruno, Yates also talks about Hermes, Dionysius the Aeropagite, Ficino, Mirandola, Agrippa, Campanella and others.

All of her other books are very informative and intriguing to read, too, i.e. The Rosicrucian Enlightenment.

Chuang Tzu, on 22 May 338 BC - 14:37, said:

The man in whom Tao acts without impediment harms no other being by his actions yet he does not know himself to be "kind", to be "gentle". . . . (He) does not bother with his own interests and does not despise others who do. He does not struggle to make money and does not make a virtue of poverty. He goes his way without relying on others and does not pride himself on walking alone. While he does not follow the crowd he won't complain of those who do. Rank and reward make no appeal to him; disgrace and shame do not deter him. He is not always looking for right and wrong, always deciding "Yes" or "No." The ancients said, therefore: The man of Tao remains unknown. Perfect virtue produces nothing. "No-Self" is "True-Self". And the greatest man is Nobody.

This is a really good explanation of Wu Wei, I'd say...

There are three degrees of the Stone... the first isn't altogether rare.

I'm not sure what you are referring to, as there are a number of Stones. Do you mean the Vegetable Stone? The White Stone? Or are you thinking of The Three Medicines according to Geber?

I always carry my lightsaber with me.