Michael Sternbach

Hmmmm, yep. If there can be degrees of non-existence then yes

Existence and what you call non-existence are themselves another manifestation of Yang and Yin. However, regarding the latter, I would rather speak of negative existence than non-existence. Only 0 is truly nil.

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Fun irellevancy:

I have read a long time ago that Lewis Carroll actually wrote alice in wonderland as a satire about abstract mathematics or something of that sort.

edit:

I think the correct term is "symbolic mathematics"... anyway, found an article about it:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/07/opinion/07bayley.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

Thanks. I will look at it as soon as I have the time. Sorta busy writing posts at the moment.

It also resembles the "shadow" part of the Soul that goes to the Underworld after physical existence in Greek metaphysics.

A closed heart unfortunately seems like the default modus operandi on Earth.

Is that the reason why you have a Black Hole as your Avatar?

Yin is 0 and Yang is 1

 

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It can be. It can also be -1 and +1. Depends.

 

The word "true" in "true person" to a Taoist is different from the ordinary definition. A "true person" is a person who has cultivated to the highest realm of the DCXM(Dual Cultivation of the Xing(mind) and Ming(body). One need to have a more understanding about the DCXM in order to grasp the meaning of the esoteric term for what a "true person" is. Unfortunately, it is meaningless to exchange idea with a little knowledge of. No offense. One's knowledge can be obtained and retained by learning.

I still feel that the implication might be that the higher members of the religious organisation are the initiates elevated over the "profane" (being closer to Dao = being the "true person"). Probably every religion makes their human icons. No offence, but it is not inconceivable that as a member of Chinese you could be biased here.

Perhaps you could elaborate a little on the meaning of the "true person"?

I just posted to MH about balance and then read yours. For a thing to exist. it must have both yang and yin . The more balanced the longer it existes and the less , the shorter.

An essential insight. In the Western tradition, it is the balance of the four Aristotelian elements (two of them being masculine/Yang, two of them feminine/Yin) which elevates a thing toward Divinity and makes it last. Therefore, the balance of the four humours is considered as the foundation of health in Traditional Western Medicine. And therefore the Philosopher's Stone is matter transformed into a state of perfect balance. Gold comes pretty close to this, in some ways, so it became a symbol of the indestructibility and immortality of the Soul.

When the planet faces sun it gets hot and when it faces away it gets cooler .

I don't mean to be fussy, but it should be where. Interestingly, a planet always has a diurnal as well as a nocturnal hemisphere. So in this respect, it represents both Yin and Yang at any given time, or the unity of the Tai chi.

We all know what happens when hot meets cold. It generates motion . wind is a good example.

 

welp an ya spelled missa worng its spelled ME.

Missa speak gungan, Jar Jar Blinks' language.

Heat rises cold falls. its all yang yin . Usung the planet , space and the sun are a good example but you can use YY ( yang and yin ) as a model and apply it to every thing big or small in the universe.

 

Does this seem unreasonable. or illogical ?

Missa no care!

WHY you ask are we asigining + and - ? Pretty sure its just me rather than we HEHE .

Missa, too. I think of Yang and Yin as two opposite forces that balance each other out at 0 (= Wu chi).

 

1.

2. Sorry, about that.....!!! When I think negatively in my mind, I always mistakenly typed positively.

So, let me rephrase while respond to you at the same time.

If Tao can be spoken with one word, then it is not the eternal Tao.

 

By reverse logic:

If Tao can't be spoken with one word but many words, then it is the eternal Tao.

For that being said, one can see that five thousand words(characters) were used, in the TTC, chapter by chapter to describe Tao by Lao Zi.

In the TTC versions that I am familiar with, Dao can't be explained by words, there number being irrelevant. I never saw your particular translation of ch. 1 in the TTC before. Is it your own?

 

3. I don't think it was necessarily for me to be a "Taoist in nature" to begin with and still may become a Taoist by cultivation. One can be a SOB to begin with then become a cultivated Taoist after enlightenment.

One can be a SOB and nonetheless be a Daoist underneath.

Maybe the children of the future (such as the infant I was seated next to) will be needed to perform a particular function having to do with technology.

Yeah, pretty sure they give you some sort of official paper saying that you've been trained as a Daoist. They might call it a register.

 

Anyway, I understand how it can be annoying to hear that Daoists only come from having been trained in Daoism...but that's looking at things from the viewpoint of not being able to travel and be part of it. The fact is...anyone can travel and anyone can inquire about becoming one, if the effort is there. Instead of looking at it as an impossibility and something unnecessary, look at it as a future opportunity. There is much to learn in actual schools...and you can still have your books like the Dao De Jing and be primarily influenced by them.

D'accord. I like this.

Not that anyone is stopping people from calling themselves Daoists. But we have to ask...if you're not trained in how to cultivate as a Daoist, then how can you cultivate as a Daoist?

By what is nowadays called "learning by doing."

Now, THAT sounds like the watercourse way to me.

Who's issuing the diplomas? We never got to the bottom of that one, so until I know, I have to say I'm not even close.

Daoist temples in China.

The question here being if Dao can truly be contained in a diploma.

The problem with any religious organization is that as soon as Dao assumes a form, it is no longer Dao.

Regarding Contentment, I would like to add that it's probably true that being literally as desireless as it gets is more likely to lead to contentment for one who is living in a poor place. Another way to contentment is satisfaction of desire in a balanced way. As also through your feelings and desires the Universe speaks to and through you.

Aristotle's Sage is Wise, Healthy and Wealthy. Epicurus, Tantrists, Aleister Crowley and Jane Roberts/Seth would all have agreed with Aristotle on this.

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Edit: Desires can even sometimes be used to guide you away from detrimental behaviour, if you get to desire something else more than that which is destructive to yourself or others.

 

1. It would be the closest definition one will ever get.

2. Yes, if Tao can be spoken with one word, then it is the eternal Tao.

3. Well, I am not sure what that meant....?

1. I am with you here, CD.

2. The eternal Dao cannot be spoken, neither by one nor by many words.

3. I'm talking from personal experience here. If you are a Daoist in nature, then it may well lead you to cultivation in order to liberate that nature of yours.

But a man cannot live on bread alone. He must have peanut butter.

LOL. Would you be willing to expand on that?

I thought any American would understand Marblehead's objection.

 

Yes, it can by your own intuition. Grok...!!!

But your intuition can't really define it (the latter being an intellectual function bound to linguistics).

 

Tao was all defined in the TTC.

One would think that it shouldn't take so many words to define something so simple.

 

One can become a Taoist, only, and only by cultivation.

Well, I would say, one sort of leads to the other.

No small task, but interesting. I'm willing to have a go at it.

Chapter 1 (James Legge translation)

The Tao that can be trodden is not the enduring and unchanging Tao. The name that can be named is not the enduring and unchanging name.

Principle for cultivation: Formlessness

The mind that is unfettered by preconceptions, fear, anger, impatience, guilt etc. It can therefore act and react in inspired ways - appropriately, intuitively, spontaneously.

Always without desire we must be found,

If its deep mystery we would sound;

But if desire always within us be,

Its outer fringe is all that we shall see.

Principle for cultivation: Contentment

Being at peace. Personally, I don't think it's desirable (or even possible) to be entirely without desire (pun intended). So I take it as being without nagging desire which is different from a calm and confident focus on what one wants or needs to achieve.

Resonates with Formlessness.

Under these two aspects, it is really the same; but as development takes place, it receives the different names. Together we call them the Mystery. Where the mystery is the deepest it is the gate of all that is subtle and wonderful.

Principle for cultivation: Contemplation

Contemplating Wu chi. Accordingly, taking a balanced and buoyant position between internal and external polarities.

Define Taoist and I'll let you know .

Tao can't be defined but Taoist can?

But what's the reason for the laugh? Not because Tao seems easy to him?

This is an interesting discussion. So far I always took it for granted that Lao Tzu is talking about the non-Daoists making fun of the Daoist's way. But some posts on this thread offer a different view.

I always found it peculiar that many translations explicitly mention scholars or even sages of lower degree. Lower degree or not, why do they deserve such a title in Lao Tzu's view even though they are totally ignorant of Dao?

A couple of possibilities... Is it because only scholars were able to read Daoist literature in the first place? Or could it be that many a scholar/academic was particularly inclined to ridicule Dao because of their own intricacy and over-intellectualizing (much like in our time)?

I think I have been a Daoist since I was born.

A few general remarks on eclecticism...

It is a generally recommended method in Alchemy to draw from many sources, as "the books explain each other".

It is furthermore in line with the alchemical (aka synthesizing) approach to apply this philosophy to other topics as well. Bruce Lee did it for the martial arts, and summarized it like this: "Absorb what is useful; discard what is useless; add what is uniquely your own." Thus he created Jeet Kune Do.

In fact, most (if not all) martial arts and metaphysical systems were and are being created that way. It is particularly evident in Hermeticism - and in Alchemy in particular.

On a personal level, this is a key to what C. G. Jung called Individuation. Which is a short way of saying: Build according to the blueprint that you have inside you. This is to search the Philosopher's Stone on the spiritual level.

Coming back to the current thread, if somebody sees something in a different light, by all means, feel free to present your perspective. It's one of the purposes of forums to speculate about and discuss stuff. However, I see no use in saying: "My Kung Fu is better than yours."

Yes, I dont think any one system has it 'as it is' they are all takes on things that are complex and difficult to describe. thats why I like an eclectic approach. After a while one can see certain connections of signiicance and meaning among them.

Exactly. Once one has reached a certain comprehension of a particular system, it is interesting to look into another, as it may help to complete the jigsaw.

Since I am currently working with Israel Regardie's Middle Pillar Exercise, I arrived at the following synthesis:

Kether - Neschamah - Superconscious Self - Galactic Space

Tiphareth - Ruach - Conscious Self - Ego - Sun

Yesod - Nephesch - Subconscious or Animilistic Self - Id - Moon

Malkuth - Guph - Physical Body - Earth

There seems to be no correlate for the Superconscious Self in Freudian psychology (unlike Jung). The Freudian Super-Ego is not really transcendental but represents one's internalized set of morals which belongs to Saturn which marks the outer boundary of the realm of the conscious personality.

I am not sure if or how Daath fits into this.

Pelted with fruit, not to worry. Like any grumpy, amoral primate suitably riled, I will pelt you with "crap" like this:

 

 

Wierd, old uncle Al just trying to "keep the balance" is he?

 

How you can still quote from Crowley after waving goodbye to your old Thelemic associates, as it seems you are doing here:

 

 

1. Here are practices. Each may last for a week or more.

2. (a) Avoid using some common word, such as "and" or "the" or "but"; use a paraphrase.

(b') Avoid using some letter of the alphabet, such as "t", or "s", or "m"; use a paraphrase.

© Avoid using the pronouns and adjectives of the first person; use a paraphrase.

 

2. On each occasion that thou art betrayed into saying that thou art sworn to avoid, cut thyself sharply upon the wrist or forearm with a razor; even as thou shouldst beat a disobedient dog. Feareth not the Unicorn the claws and teeth of the Lion?

3. Thine arm then serveth thee both for a warning and for a record. Thou shalt write down thy daily progress in these practices . . . (Liber III vel Jugorum, Magick in Theory and Practice, Castle Books, ND, p. 427-28)

 

 

Is beyond me. Don't you realize that it is exactly because of Crowley that they "couldnt quiet (sic, I am not sure quite what was intended here) manifest it"? Doesn't it occur to you that there is something fundamentally wrong in the way he thought about and taught his so called magick?

 

Whatever value there may be in some aspects of what he says, is countered by defects such as what I quoted above, and unfortunately, it is not how the few intelligent people take what good he says, it is how the many idiots take what is bad in what he says that matters. That and the fact that the tons of his faux magic available and his supposed position as an authority have closed the minds of many people to any real understanding of magic.

The thing with Crowley is that you are sometimes not sure if he really means what he says or if he is merely expressing his peculiar sense of humour. Like when he suggests in his book on Yoga to meditate in lotus posture with a bowl chock full of hydrochloric acid on the top of the head.

I think I would only keep spewing out the same question: can I learn about the hexagrams without having to deal with the whole load of hexagrams? If so, you got any websites where i could start?

Go to

http://www.hermetica.info/TongLink.htm

and scroll down to "Yijing Link Pages" - you will find a cornucopia of information. Have fun!

“Tao lies directly beneath the soles of your feet.” It's Tao's simplicity which makes somebody believing in complexity laugh.

I think an un-Taoist anger will not sit around and stagnate in the body. The reason is that there will be an outburst of anger when a person gets upset and become violent. There is a tendency to get even or revenge to release one's anger.

I beg to differ. Anger that could neither be released nor dissolved, but which is simply suppressed is the psychosomatic cause of many an illness. Plenty of people tend to keep anger inside, and often this behaviour is expected in social interactions. Violent outbursts are generally the result of anger that has been stored for some time, then suddenly gets released. Of course, some people tend to "get even" in more calculating ways.

A Taoist will dissolve the anger by being encompassed with great tolerance and forgiveness.

Whenever you can genuinely do this, that's great! Practically speaking, I found that showing a degree of anger (even if only pretended) is necessary to be understood in certain situations. Even Zen masters do this.

A Taoist probably will make up an excuse to forgive for those who initiated the anger.

It's hardly necessary to "make up an excuse" for the offender if you truly forgive somebody. However, the latter has got to do with understanding the other person's reason for their offensive behaviour and/or seeing in what way you may have contributed to the situation yourself.

"Tout comprendre est tout pardonner."

First off, there is nothing supernatural. It's just that nature includes a lot more than what many people are giving her credit for. In human nature, there are a number of possibilities inherent which are not generally recognized. As for what abilities can be achieved by particular Daoist practices, I cannot be specific because my respective training has been more in the context of Western systems. However, the shamanistic practices of all cultures have much in common, especially regarding their results. So I will mention what I know to exist and to be attainable from personal experience (especially since most posters on this thread so far are surprisingly negative about such skills in a Daoist context). This includes:

- Remote viewing regarding unknown places and objects

- Remote viewing regarding people, including their physical and psychological characteristics, personal history, environment, etc.

- Telepathic communication

- Healing by spiritual energy

- Foreseeing future events

- Travelling in the astral body

I am convinced that many other things are possible as well, but as I said, I will limit myself right now to what I know first hand.