Michael Sternbach

I feel that your questions are aimed at figuring out if Taoism is about ethics/morals. My answer to this is: No, not in the ordinary sense. The actions of a person at one with Tao will naturally and spontaneously tend to be constructive, but they are not dictated by a rigid codex of morals. It's just that the integrated individual happens to have an integrative influence. Their actions may or may not be seen as moral by the standard of others (depending on their personal outlook and understanding of the situation). While a moral person in the usual sense tends to go through life with a rational set of dos and don'ts, a Taoist would go with what feels right in light of the given situation.

To quote from the TTC, CHAPTER 18 (translated by Isabella Mears):

Great Tao lost,

There came the duty to man and right conduct.

Wisdom and shrewdness appearing,

There came great hypocrisy.

The six relationships inharmonious,

There came filial piety deep, deep in the heart.

Kingdoms, families, and clans at war,

There came loyal Ministers.

To address your questions:

 

1. A student's friends have tried smoking pot and are trying to get them to start.

Quite a few people on this forum are not totally inexperienced in this respect. The occasional use of psychotropic substances is not necessarily in contradiction to a Taoist way of life. Surely it only gets you so far. Only if the use of psychedelic substances goes out of hand (i.e., the person becomes an addict), there would be reason for concern from a Taoist perspective. Certainly, denial of problems that need to be addressed, and abuse of oneself and/or others is not in accordance with a Tao way of living.

 

2. A student has just found $100 in the hall

Unless I would know who has lost the $ 100, I would silently say "thanks" to whoever unknowingly left them on the ground for me to find, as well as to the Tao perhaps helping me out this way. I have personally been on the losing as well as on the finding side a few times...

 

3. A student knows that a friend is cheating on tests

Generally, I wouldn't advise to get involved with things none of one's business. If it was about a close friend whose future development I was rightfully concerned with, I would highlight the Taoist teaching to be one with one's actions; learning should be done with commitment and out of an interest to broaden one's horizon then. The student cheating in a test may really be cheating themselves, after all, even more so if they resort to it on a regular base. This may also indicate problems dealing with challenging situations in general.

 

4. A student sees an opportunity to take something they have really wanted, without being caught

Again, the question is a little too general in order to cover each and every conceivable situation. But in most circumstances, I, too, would say: Don't.

I Ching (yijing) seems like quite the dense and impressive thing that's full of observation and insight, but for someone not really interested in divination, and would prefer to look at it from another perspective, what would consumers here say about the general value and import of the thing? It really does seem a worthwhile study, however with the density of it, the general implication of what one might learn is more than a little opaque to a non initiate like me.

 

So I suppose I start with the most basic question: what is it? What is the most percipient thing about it that one could say? And are there things to learn about it that don't directly invoke the need to use it as a divining tool? Even general comments might help clear the fog for me on this.

Well, of course you could study the I ching simply as a system of natural philosophy - for the wisdom contained therein.

I have an interest in the Bagua, which as I understand it are the 8 Trigrams:

 

乾 Qián

☰ 兌 Duì

☱ 離 Lí

☲ 震 Zhèn

☳ 巽 Xùn

☴ 坎 Kǎn

☵ 艮 Gèn

☶ 坤 Kūn

☷

 

Furthering what I understand (though really only nominally) is that these Trigrams relate to Wu Xing (something I have great interest in), and are also used in feng shui. I suppose somewhere between those two things is where my interest is piqued, yet what have they got to do with yijing? And why can my google skills not spare me this confusion?

That's a good question. I will try to get back to you as soon as I have the time to look up a few things.

And speaking of google, I suppose brings up the chief reason I'm composing this thread. Barring getting recommendations on books (because I'm poor and can't afford them), where does one begin with the internet in this area of study? What does one avoid?

There are many approaches, depending on your interest. Personally, I found this thread quite informative and inspiring, including some of the links therein.

http://thetaobums.com/topic/36432-how-do-the-hexagrams-transform-from-1-64-sequence-theory/?hl=hexagram

I see different things in pictures to do with the bagua. The aspect I'm most keenly interested in is how it can be said that these Trigrams relate to things like relationship and marriage, family and past, career, and fame. That there is an organisational aspect to it is fascinating. Is this the type of thing yijing illuminates?

 

I've tried numerous times to read translations of the commentaries on the I Ching and it's all sort of "yielding to the river: good time to plant crops" or somesuch or other (forgive my crude insenstivity; just trying to impress my exasperation), giving what seems to be (as all the psychics will probably say is obvious) advice in prognostication. Is there though more general observation to be found in it?

The thing is that the I ching (like other metaphysical systems, too) is based on a world view that regards things that have no connection in the common (rationalistic) sense as being interconnected by analogy. This also ties in with symbolism. It's a kind of shorthand which pertains to ALL kinds of things and events.

I'm vaguely aware that the trigrams and hexagrams came about rather independently, (albeit, not without conscious synergy) but what's the core philosophy? If i'm not satisfied that I can learn about yijing without divination, can I research Bagua and leave out the Yijing?

Of course you could - why not? However, you may naturally want to look into the I ching at a later stage, Personally, I find it quite rewarding.

More questions that I know what to do with or phrase properly.

 

Thanks for listening.

You are welcome. I hope that the answers I wrote off the top of my head are helpful in some way. Happy to talk more if you wish me to elaborate on this or that, or when you are ready to post further questions.

One who believes in not forcing things, but pursuing the way of least resistance. Of course, that can mean a lot of different things, depending on the situation.

Somebody who hasn't even heard of Taoism may in fact be more accomplished as a Taoist than somebody who is doing a lot of qigong or internal martial arts with their ego prevailing.

That is why there is a thing called "practice". We have to learn how to pull it out of the bag.

Exactly. Realistic self-defence training will teach you to switch on in a split second, that is, to activate your "reptile brain". It's not about getting angry (you may not even have the time). It's about dropping the attacker in an instant almost unconsciously if need be, then go home to your family.

That being said, of course situations differ. On several occasions, I was able to discourage a would-be attacker while he was still building up his aggression - not by showing anger but signalling readiness and decisiveness. A good martial artist will stay calm during this stage and try to neutralize the threat but watch every twitch the opponent may make. It took me some time to calm down - after the situation was over. As my adrenal glands had obviously been quite active.

There are many kinds of meditative exercises (qigong) in Taoism, either done in stillness (neigong) or involving movement (waigong). The latter includes the internal martial arts, in my understanding.

Zen meditation is synonymous with sitting in za-zen, for the most part. Of course, the zen mind is also practised in various arts, martial and other. Zen practice has a lot in common with Taoist practice, not least in regard of its application of body principles (holding the spine straight for "connecting Heaven and Earth", dantien/tanden breathing etc.). Zazen can naturally induce the Microcosmic Orbit. However, Taoist meditation often makes use of visualization which zazen does not. It is very common in China that folks have a mixture of Zen (called Chan) and Taoism as their personal philosophy and practice.

I would say, if you contemplate and try to follow the "water course way", then you can consider yourself to be a Taoist. Taoism looks at human emotions as basically self-adjusting. That is, if their natural flow is not tampered with. If they cause you troubles, the key is to look at them and understand what is happening.

With all these flaws, you want to become a Taoist???!!! NOT A CHANCE!!!

I'm just kidding. Taoism is a philosophy or a way of life (even though pretty much an undefinable one, see chapter 1 of the TTC). Any improvements in the ethical sense may be a result thereof, they are not a prerequisite.

negative 'entities' : 'demonic forces': hallucinations of a lower order: 'persecuting spirits': etc.

 

Claim separate identity to those they persecute, but that can be exposed on in depth examination (and they hate that ... in depth examination and questioning, as it exposes them). They claim psychic or unknown knowledge that the person (they originated from) can not know (trying to affirm their separation) but, it can be shown (again on deeper examination) that the person did have access to that knowledge. The often talk rubbish and suggest detrimental choices and courses of behaviour ... in extreme situations, suggest self harm, suicide or the murder of those close to the one afflicted ... or that they are going to kill the person afflicted. They dont like to give a name, but they will if pressed - the name doesnt stand up to analysis ( by deeper methods, such as Kabbalistic analysis. They get agitated when pressed with logic, they dont like to hear religion or philosophy, they will suggest 'blasphemous acts' and persecute the afflicted for not doing them, if they do, they will then change to mockery for doing it.

 

In other words, they act detrimentally to the welfare of the afflicted and those close to them.

 

A 'positive entity : 'angelic force' : hallucination of an higher order : redeeming spirit : etc.

 

Are not really interested in claiming identity for themselves, they often say they are a ;force' or a 'representative of' ..... , they are happy to be examined and tested in depth, their answers often hold multiple levels of internal confirmation, they seem to possess knowledge that the associated person does not know, they appear to be 'generated' from some source 'outside' of the person in question , they talk sense and suggest good and healthy solutions, they give encouragement, they are happy to talk about religion and philosophy, ... and so on...

 

In short ... they are good

 

These types of tests and trials put on them, give the same results and divisions, whether it is old style Swedenborgian 'spirit possession' philosophy, modern clinical (although rather far out) psychiatry, or the basics in evocative magic.

 

Its a large subject ... but there is an area where all three approaches intersect; here they also offer the appropriate remedies.

 

This seems the easiest and most general introduction to the subject ... but for the fuller picture, I recommend a greater reading of the works written by the authors mentioned in the article (Swedenborg and vanDusen );

 

http://www.searchwithin.org/download/presence_spirits.pdf

Nungali,

The article you have linked strongly agrees with my own therapeutic experiences with mentally troubled individuals. Thanks for sharing!

Jim,

I think you might like this:

http://universe-review.ca/

Yeah, i'm wondering how helium could have formed because my understanding is that hydrogen atoms must fuse in order for helium to be created.

Quoting from your first linked article:

Helium and Deuterium Abundance in Universe

The notion that the expanding universe was extremely hot in the beginning provides a reasonable explanation for why helium and deuterium seem to have existed even before star formation. Both these species are created by nuclear fusion. Fusion of a proton and a neutron produces deuterium (also known as heavy hydrogen), while fusion of two deuterium nuclei produces helium. These reactions can occur only at very high temperatures, such as in the interiors of stars. In 1946, George Gamow, once a student of Friedmann, suggested that nuclear fusion must have taken place when the universe was so hot in the beginning. This process, called the "big bang nucleosynthesis", would have created helium and deuterium (plus trace amounts of elements like lithium and beryllium) out of an initial sea of energetic protons and neutrons.

But you must admit, the theory works well with the Taoist theory of how it all started.

I very much agree with your basic assumption, even though we should talk about the details further. Not that Lao Tzu would have had knowledge of modern cosmology, of course. But texts like the TTC are about universal principles which are manifesting themselves on so many levels, in so many different ways.

How about this?

One gave birth to two,

Single particles fusing into deuterium nuclei. (Now we have two kinds of matter, hydrogen and deuterium)

Two gave birth to three,

Deuterium nuclei fusing into helium. (Now we have three kinds of matter.)

Three gave birth to the Ten Thousand things.

Out of the three kinds of matter, the Universe was made.

To sum it up the first line is most emphatically not mystical jibber-jabber, it’s a precise salvo in the political debate of Confucians vs Huang-Lao. The latter lost. So much for ‘Tao that can't be spoken’.

A text like the TTC has meaning on many levels. That a certain interpretation is right, doesn't imply that another interpretation ought to be wrong. So I believe that the ambiguity is intended.

Lao Tzu's mind (like the mind of other great philosophers and poets) was tuned into higher realization which is always "non-linear" (as the Tao itself).

Pardon my mystical jibber-jabber.

This is an interesting article: http://www.ugcs.caltech.edu/~yukimoon/BigBang/BigBang.htm

 

He doesn't talk much about gravity though.

 

But I will add at this point: The periodic table of elements indicates that hydrogen is the first element and helium is the second.

 

(Helium [and all other heavier elements] is created by the compression of hydrogen within a star (strong nuclear force) caused by gravity. "My thoughts.")

Some of the Helium was created before the first stars were created, according to the cosmologists. Another part is the result of nuclear fusion in stars as you mention. (You may have learnt this from one of your linked articles below meanwhile, which explains it in detail.)

Here are two more articles that get close to what I was saying but they never really say it:

 

http://scienceline.ucsb.edu/getkey.php?key=383

 

http://www.physicsoftheuniverse.com/topics_bigbang_timeline.html

 

 

(Actually, the second article gets very close to it.)

The second article gives a good summary of the assumed development after the Big Bang and talks about gravity as the first force that separated from the unison of the four forces.

Yes, that was my understanding until recently listening to those folks who think they might know something.

 

Supposedly hydrogen and the force of gravity were the first to separate and then the other three forces. Gravity and hydrogen are what allowed helium and the other forces take form.

Is that from Neil Tyson? Do you have any online reference?

You're not your past

Your past to a significant degree made you what you are as a personality. You need to understand and integrate certain themes at different times in your life. Better you do it consciously than in unreflected ways.

Marblehead,

I don't mean to be fussy, but the four forces that science knows of:

• Gravity
• Electromagnetism
• Strong nuclear force
• Weak nuclear force

were merged with each other in the very beginning. They became separate by a process called symmetry breaking very early on. Physicists are trying to imitate that highly energetic (aka hot) initial state in their hadron colliders. All kinds of particles were created in the first (unimaginably short) moments, but the formation of Hydrogen and other simple atoms took thousands of years, as temperature had to go down a lot for allowing electrons binding to nuclei.

I find these very interesting which I have experimented with to a limited degree.

http://www.hilarion.com/igd.html

I found what I was looking for:

Robert Allen Bartlett: The Way of the Crucible

This is a brilliant introduction to the mineral work. The author feels what I thought myself, mineral Alchemy has been almost completely obscured so far and aims to remedy this by his book.

I think that you, having been a representative of law and order, you need to experience what it's like to be on the other side. Astrologically speaking, you were formerly manifesting Saturn's energy, now you're going Uranian. Uranus tends to break up overly rigid and obstructive structures. Rather than breaking windows and demolishing cars, you want to do it in a constructive way. Kudos to you, and good luck.

The pursuit of academic knowledge is in no contradiction to Daoism, in my view. What matters is the attitude it's done with. I met a number of academics priding themselves of their objectivity; they seemed to think of their knowledge as something final. Notwithstanding that no scientific truth has been final so far, but had to be revised one day, even though it served a purpose for the time being.

Sometimes more subjective/artistic personalities paradoxically are in fact more objective because they know and understand the inevitably subjective nature of their perspective.

Beware of the trap here and I think you will be fine.

Neat. Yes, gravity can easily be looked at from a human standpoint too. Those forces that pull people together instead of pushing us apart.

 

I watched more Neil Tyson last night and he said something I have been saying about gravity for a number of years - that perhaps we don't know as much about gravity as we think we do. (He was speaking about Dark Matter when he said that.)

For one thing, gravity is present everywhere and can not be screened off for all we know - it's all-pervasive much like space itself (in fact, according to Einstein, it is curved space). Moreover, it can carry information according to some pioneering researchers. I think of gravity as somehow linked with the World Soul.

Yeah, what brought that on is that Cosmologists and Astronomers are finally trying to talk of the Singularity, what is believed to have existed before the Big Bang. From what I have heard so far what has been said could easily be said about Black Holes as well.

 

And yes, that would support the concepts of reversion and cycles.

 

I recently listened to a couple lectures by Neil Tyson and even he talks about quantum mechanics. I guess I will have to try to learn a little, at least the basics, about that field of science.

Hehehe.

As good a guess as any. Science may one day find an answer by looking at Massive Black Holes.

There's a thought! Black Holes are singularities, too... And, according to modern Cosmology, one day they *pop* - setting free their stored information of all they ever swallowed. Seeds for new creation?

Hehehe. Don't accuse me of being scientific. I just recently denounced science.

But you ARE quite a scientist by nature! [Note to self: Edit this before posting.]

Oh!, if feels so nice when someone agrees with me. Hehehe.

Twice on Sundays.

Regarding me, I think you are concentrating too much on the label "Atheist".

Isn't this rather about semantics, anyway? You call yourself an Atheist, but you are anything but an Ataoist? Personally I have no problem with identifying Tao as what other metaphysical systems call God. (There are a couple of other words for it, too.)

Why did Singularity go Bang!?

Hmm, never really thought about it. Perhaps, just for fun?

I know what I know until I have to change my mind. I don't care too much for saying "I don't know" and then just dropping the thought. If the thought was interesting enough I will find out if at all possible.

Brilliant attitude. Scientific, basically.

I think everyone should feel this way. There is no shame in saying "I know what works for me."

I am definitely with yo here, Jim.

In addition to using live traps and avoiding open food and rubbish - use your qigong! The best approach would probably be mentally talking to the rats while in a meditative state. Radiate positive energies to them. Anger etc. would likely be counter-productive; rather something along 'the unity of all life' lines. Then direct them out of the house.

I heard from a reliable source about a guy who is into Anthroposophy who would sit in front of a wheat-field full with some kind of bugs. Within minutes, they would all take off.

Excellent question and I doubt I can satisfactorily answer it.

I'm not sure then if you would qualify as the abbot of my proposed Swiss mountain Daoist temple. LOL

Thing is, anything we hold as fact must prove to be so each and every time. No exceptions. If it doesn't then the best (honestly) we can do is create a generalization. And these are sometimes good enough.

But actually, I find this quite a satisfactory answer (good enough for now, to be sure ).