Taoist Texts

Technically, yours is a pretty good translation, but...the questions you pose are even better. All translators draw a picture of a totalitarian dark place where rulers take away the playthings from the dumb masses, overlooking the fact that there are two third-person actors in this passage - the people and their rulers. If the rulers take away the shiny toys from the people that would be action and Lao knows better than that. So 'they' 其 refers not to the people but to the rulers themselves. 是以聖人之治，虛其心，實其腹，弱其志，強其骨。常使民無知無欲。使夫知者不敢為也。為無為，則無不治。 "So when the sages govern - they empty their own hearts, fill their own bellies, weaken their own ambitions, sthengthen their own bones. If they conduct themselves like this always, then the people would not know what to desire...Do this non-action and there will be nothing to govern" The Amish;)

Good hunch sir. There was hardly a tomb or a building consecrated without the sacrifice of a dog. At one site, Xiaotong, the bones of a total of 825 human victims, 15 horses, 10 oxen, 18 sheep and 35 dogs were unearthed. Dogs were usually buried wrapped in reed mats and sometimes in lacquer coffins. Small bells with clappers, called ling (鈴) have sometimes been found attached to the necks of dogs or horses. The fact that alone among domestic animals dogs and horses were buried demonstrates the importance of these two animals to ancient Chinese society. It's reflected in an idiom passed down to modern times: "to serve like a dog or a horse." (犬馬之勞). Shang oracle bones mention questions concerning the whereabouts of lost dogs. They also refer to the ning (寧) rite during which a dog was dismembered to placate the four winds or honour the four directions. This sacrifice was carried over into Zhou times. The Er ya records a custom to dismember a dog to "bring the four winds to a halt." (止風). Other ceremonies involving dogs are mentioned in the Zhou li. In the nan (難) sacrifice to drive away pestilience, a dog was dismembered and his remains buried in front of the main gates of the capital. The ba (軷) sacrifice to ward off evil required the Son of Heaven, riding in a jade chariot, to crush a dog under the wheels of his carriage. The characterba gives a clue as to how the ceremony took place. It is written with the radical for chariot (車) and a phonetic element which originally meant an animal whose legs had been bound (发). It was the duty of a specially appointed official to supply a dog of one colour and without blemishes for the sacrifice. The blood of dogs was used for the swearing of covenants between nobles. Towards the late fifth century BC, surrogates began to be used for sacrifice in lieu of real dogs. The Dao De Jing mentions the use of straw dogs as a metaphor: Heaven and earth are ruthless, and treat the myriad creatures as straw dogs; the sage is ruthless, and treats the people as straw dogs.[3] However, the practice of burying actual dogs by no means died out. One Zhongshan royal mausoleum, for example, included two hunting dogs with gold and silver neck rings. Later, clay figurines of dogs were buried in tombs. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dogs_in_ancient_China

wow, its like deep, man.

Thats quite likely. If you look in a larger dictionary you will find that 音聲 combo denotes the initial 音 and the final 聲sounds of a chinese syllable.

Yes thats my oversight, of course the original says 有無相生 being and non being birth each other. Good catch.

Heck let me have a go at it too 《老子河上公章句·養身》: Nourishing the body 天下皆知美之為美，斯惡已；皆知善之為善，斯不善已。 If everybody under Heaven deem something beautiful then it becomes ugly (to a discerning observer, because beautiful is something different from vulgar tastes); if everybody recognizes something as good then it must be not that good. (so ugly comes from beautiful, not good comes from previously good) 故有無相生，難易相成，長短相較，高下相傾，音聲相和，前後相隨。 (Similar to the above) being births non-being, hard and easy are two ends of the same, short and long are relative, high and low are parts of whole, the sounds are parts of harmony, before and after are consecutive (If these extremes give rise to each other in nature, then it is best to govern by non-action which will produce action) 是以聖人居無為之事，行不言之教，萬物作而弗治也， 為而不恃，功成而弗居。夫唯弗居，是以不去。 So the sage manages by non-action and teaches not by words but by conduct, (in this way) the things are done without governance, there is action but not the maintenance of it, the work is accomplished without dwelling on it. Because the work (of governing) is not dwelled on – it is never out of control.

There is a long authoritative tradition that supports what Chi Dragon says, so we are conditioned to believe it. But how does it work in practice, if at all? If you put yourself behind how you gonna end up in front being recognised? Something doesnt add.

I will just highlight the parallels and see where it is going 里仁: 子曰：「富與貴是人之所欲也，不以其道得之，不處也；貧與賤是人之所惡也，不以其道得之，不去也。君子去仁，惡乎成名？君子無終食之間違仁，造次必於是，顛沛必於是。」 Li Ren: The Master said, "Riches and honors are what men desire. If it cannot be obtained in the proper way, they should not be held. Poverty and meanness are what men dislike. If it cannot be avoided in the proper way, they should not be avoided. If a superior man abandon virtue, how can he fulfill the requirements of that name? The superior man does not, even for the space of a single meal, act contrary to virtue. In moments of haste, he cleaves to it. In seasons of danger, he cleaves to it." http://ctext.org/analects/li-ren?searchu=%E4%B8%8D%E5%8E%BB&searchmode=showall#n1173

Yes it is. also an example as how most of what is cryptic in TTC is made clear by Confucius.

子曰：「予欲無言。」子貢曰：「子如不言，則小子何述焉？」子曰：「天何言哉？四時行焉，百物生焉，天何言哉？」 Yang Huo: The Master said, "I would prefer not speaking." Zi Gong said, "If you, Master, do not speak, what shall we, your disciples, have to record?" The Master said, "Does Heaven speak? The four seasons pursue their courses, and all things are continually being produced, but does Heaven say anything?" (Legg)

sure. no harm - no foul. Character: 治 Character (單一漢字)English Senses For (英文): zhi4 control / to govern / to manage / to rule / to regulate / to harness (a river) / the seat of the local government / to treat (a disease) / to cure / to study / to research / to punish / peaceful and orderly / a Chinese family name From water 氵水 and phonetic 台. Originally to prevent flooding by water. Now to regulate.

yet understand you will kind sir. 夫 ​ (literary) initial particle which introduces a topic  [quotations ▼]Usage notes[edit]Not used as an independent character in modern Chinese. Only found in compounds. http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E5%A4%AB#Particle

i understand that we are well of throdden path here, so for a perspective consider that this could be about a cosmic feng-shui.under great open sky..'regulate the unruly waters and the rest of the cosm will follow suit". Also 治 is not the only ref to controlling waters...不爭 or 有靜 also is. Water is not struggling or is calm only when contained, otherwise it is quite an unruly element , you know.

夫 at the beg. of a sent. is an intro particle.

a stitch in time saves nine;)

Hi DB, just TT will do lets not stand on the ceremony here;) Yes i think thats the original version, now a scattered puzzle between the 4 received versions. The governance of a nation begins from building irrigation and waterways and remains so (recall The United States Army Corps of Engineers (USACE, also sometimes shortened to CoE) is a U.S. federal agency under the Department of Defense and a major Army command made up of some 36,500 civilian and military personnel,[1] making it one of the world's largest public engineering, design, and construction management agencies. Although generally associated with dams, canals and flood protection in the United States...) So the original to me goes something like this: 上善治水。水善利萬物而不爭， 居眾人之所亞， 故幾於道矣。 居善地，心善淵，予善天，言善信，正善治，事善能，動善時。夫唯不爭，故無尤。 The highest governance is that of managing the waterworks. When the water is well managed it is benefitting everything and being subdued – does not contend, then the people should be made to reside (along the borders of it) 所亞, and the nation will be close to Dao. Once the residence is on that land (along the managed water), then the hearts will be good at being deep, the words good with sincerity, the punishments 正 will be good for governance, the affairs will good with possibility (of being done), the actions will be good according to seasons. Only because now (after the waters have been strictly subdued) there is no contention – there will be no fault.

yes, to me control/regulate is the key here. So the story arc of this passage starts with a reference to the governing class 上善, being in charge of public works 治水 historically. Then the arc proceeds into water governance serving as a metaphor for governance in general, and ends in a conclusion on a secret of good governance.

8。 《道德經》: 上善若水。水善利萬物而不爭，處衆人之所惡，故幾於道。居善地，心善淵，與善仁，言善信，正善治，事善能，動善時。夫唯不爭，故無尤。 《老子河上公章句·易性》: 上善若水。水善利萬物而不爭，處眾人之所惡，故幾於道。居善地，心善淵，與善仁，言善信，正善治，事善能，動善時。夫唯不爭，故無尤。 《馬王堆·老子甲道經》: 上善治水。水善利萬物而有靜，居眾之所惡，故幾於道矣。居善地，心善瀟，予善信，正善治，事善能，動善時。夫唯不靜，故無尤。 《馬王堆·老子乙道經》: 上善如水。水善利萬物而有爭，居眾人之所亞，故幾於道矣。居善地，心善淵，予善天，言善信，正善治，事善能，動善時。夫唯不爭，故無尤。 I feel that comparison of different versions is helpful for prying out the intrinsic meaning. I do feel that DDJ is written in a formulaic language, so they key is to decipher the code of its bits like 上善如水 vs 上善治水。

Hey DB, this is a good translation as they go but i do always wonder whats the connection between lines? why are they stringed together in one chapter? why most of them seem trivial like (事善能The goodness of duties is found in ability) or disjointed? i wish translators paid more attention to these issues. But again, a good job.

oh, i am sure he does. Hey Hagar does your stance look like this?

if you put any intent into it , you are overdoing it.

but but..there is no air in space no?

Hey Ex, can you please elaborate on whats wrong with that book?

Yes, all the time.