Taoist Texts

There is no such thing as a false school. False is not definable, it is a subjective characterization.

all of them actually.

also i goofed on this : 4 not 3

sure: birth from moisture (Sanskrit: Samsvedaja; Pali: Saṃsedaja; Chinese: 濕生; Standard Tibetan: Drod-skyes)—probably referring to the appearance of animals whose eggs are microscopic, like maggots appearing in rotting flesh;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C4%81ti_(Buddhism) The Four Manners of RebirthThe chapter begins with a discussion of the grossest internal cycle, which is the recurrence of death, bardo and rebirth. In general, Buddhism asserts four manners of rebirth: from a womb, from an egg, from heat and moisture, http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/en/archives/e-books/published_books/kalachakra_initiation/pt2/kalachakra_initiation_04.html Evolution Born of Moisture: Analogies and Parallels Between Anaximander's Ideas on Origin of Life and Man and Later Pre-Darwinian and Darwinian Evolutionary Concepts.This study focuses on the origin of life as presented in the thought of Anaximander of Miletus but also points to some parallel motifs found in much later conceptions of both the pre-Darwinian German romantic science and post-Darwinian biology. According to Anaximander, life originated in the moisture associated with earth (mud). http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22864993 Abiogenesis (/ˌeɪbaɪ.ɵˈdʒɛnɨsɪs/ ay-by-oh-jen-ə-siss[1]) or biopoiesis[2] is the natural process of life arising from non-living matter such as simple organic compounds.[3][4][5][6] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abiogenesis

Whether born by transformation from foetus, egg or moisture, all living beings.... (from) 胎 foetus卵egg濕 moisture 化 transformed: 3 ways of being born into a living being.

In this yogi-ridden age, it is too readily assumed that ‘non-attachment’ is not only better than a full acceptance of earthly life, but that the ordinary man rejects it because it is too difficult; in other words, that the average human being is a failed saint. It is doubtful whether this is true. Many people genuinely do not wish to be saints, and it is probable that some who achieve or aspire to sainthood have never felt much temptation to be human beings. If one could follow it to its psychological roots, one would, I believe, find that the main motive for ”non-attachment” is a desire to escape from the pain of living, and above all from love, which, sexual or non-sexual, is hard work. But it is not necessary here to argue whether the other-worldly or the humanistic ideal is ‘higher’.’ The point is that they are incompatible. — George Orwell, Reflections on Gandhi

A saint is one who has been recognized for having an exceptional degree of holiness. While the English term "saint" originated in Christianity, historians of religion now use the term "in a more general way to refer to the state of special holiness that many religions attribute to certain people,"[1] with the Jewish Tzadik, the Islamic Mu'min, the Hindu rishi or guru, and the Buddhist arhat orbodhisattva also referred to as saints. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint

i like these goings-on for xian.

thats not bad for a top of the head explanation but stil could use more detail. You see xian 仙人 (which is translated as immortal) means a special kind of spiritual beings, who may or may not have been mortal at some point in time. Same with the sages 圣人 or 聖人, they might have been mortal or not, regardless of what happened to their physical bodies. Also TTC does not contain 仙人, only 聖人. On the other hand, Zhuangzi contains several appellations: an utter man至人a spiritual man 神人，a sage man 聖人; but no 仙人. In my translations i translate 仙人 as a saint, not an immortal, the latter being misleading.

How we know that they are not the same?

所屬 is a combo meaning 'vassals, subordinates' 道德經19 《道德經》: 絕聖棄智，民利百倍；絕仁棄義，民復孝慈；絕巧棄利，盜賊無有。 此三者以為文不足。故令有所屬：見素抱樸，少私寡欲。 《老子河上公章句·還淳》: 絕聖棄智，民利百倍。絕仁棄義，民復孝慈。絕巧棄利，盜賊無有。此三者，以為文不足，故令有所屬。見素抱樸，少私寡欲。 《郭店·老子甲》: 絕智棄辯，民利百倍。絕巧棄利，盜賊亡有。絕偽棄慮，民復季子。三言以為文不足，或令之或乎屬。視素保樸，少私寡欲。 《馬王堆·老子甲道經》: 絕聲棄知，民利百負；絕仁棄義，民復畜茲；絕巧棄利，盜賊無有。此三言也，以為文未足。故令之有所屬：見素抱□□□□□。 《馬王堆·老子乙道經》: 絕聖棄知，而民利百倍；絕仁棄義，而民復孝茲；絕巧棄利，盜賊無有。此三言也，以為文未足。故令之有所屬：見素抱樸，少□而寡欲。 此三者，以為文不足，These three tactics make up for insufficiency of culture 故令有所屬。Therefore to make your vassals obedient 見素抱樸，少私寡欲。Observe your own simplicity, lessen your desires.

道德經46 《道德經》: 禍莫大於不知足；咎莫大於欲得。故知足之足，常足矣。 《老子河上公章句·儉欲》: 罪莫大於可欲。禍莫大於不知足，咎莫大於欲得。故知足之足，常足。 《郭店·老子甲》: 罪莫厚於甚欲，咎莫僉於欲得，禍莫大乎不知足。知足之為足，此恒足矣。 《馬王堆·老子甲德經》: 罪莫大於可欲；禍莫大於不知足。咎莫憯於欲得。□□□□□恆足矣。 《馬王堆·老子乙德經》: 罪莫大可欲禍□□□□□□□□□□□□□□□□□□足矣。 《群書治要·德經》: 罪莫大於可欲，禍莫大於不知足，咎莫大於欲得，故知足之足，常足矣。 The idea is that when everything 僉that could have been desired and obtained IS obtained, then there is no other way further but downhill. Therefore: A. that eventuality is the moment of greatest, inevitable danger. B. One should stop before that point of no return is reached, that’s how one knows when to stop – before sufficiency is reached. C. If stopping BEFORE sufficiency (obtaining everything obtainable) is optimal, then it follows that one should be ALWAYS in a stopping mode. (pun: sufficiency=stopping).

The variations of the first char. in diff. copies http://ctext.org/text.pl?node=11610&if=en&show=parallel are 有，所 ， 乎 to me that char. looks a lot more like suo than hu a variation of the above. As to the second char., this being a complicated char. on a meager bamboo slip, the scribe simplified it to the fullest retaining only the 2 base elements and discarding the top completely. Note the retained middle roundel and the supporting vertical strokes.

"If" seems to be the operative word here;)

these 2?

thanks, i do sometimes. its a thing of beauty to see how a bunch of characters decodes itself into a story that is both comprehensible and poetic.

《尋隱者不遇》 松下問童子 言師採藥去 只在此山中 雲深不知處 To gather herbs is the teacher gone Said a lad under the pines Somewhere he is in the mountains yon’ He told me with a sly smile. I gazed at the clouds deep in the sky, Then once more into the lad’s eyes, There was the old teacher young again, Under his new youthful guise.

Of course. Thats what every tyrant says: Its for the benefit of the people!

Thanks Woodcarver. I must be dense but what does that even mean? Whats a tao? Whats the connection beetwing naming and immortality? Why THE tao can not be named? Who says so? And why? What value did this statement add? In short, i dont understand this, seriously.

Perhaps this is germane to the concept of the first line: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/When_a_white_horse_is_not_a_horse

oh its just one way to look at the story. A stranger comes up to you with a sharp object in hand, asks to look at it and recall anything untoward. The implication could be that he came for you. methinks the poem intentionally leaves that open,no?

For ten years I have been honing this sword, Quoth the strange wandering guest. Look at the frosty edge milord, It had never been put to test. Now think hard and deep my liege, While feeling the blade so cold, Whether the justice is now served, For those whom you have wronged.

really;) and that point would be....?

Technically, yours is a pretty good translation, but...the questions you pose are even better. All translators draw a picture of a totalitarian dark place where rulers take away the playthings from the dumb masses, overlooking the fact that there are two third-person actors in this passage - the people and their rulers. If the rulers take away the shiny toys from the people that would be action and Lao knows better than that. So 'they' 其 refers not to the people but to the rulers themselves. 是以聖人之治，虛其心，實其腹，弱其志，強其骨。常使民無知無欲。使夫知者不敢為也。為無為，則無不治。 "So when the sages govern - they empty their own hearts, fill their own bellies, weaken their own ambitions, sthengthen their own bones. If they conduct themselves like this always, then the people would not know what to desire...Do this non-action and there will be nothing to govern" The Amish;)