Taoist Texts

which has not prevented the expert translators to mess it up something fierce also Mawangdui Silk Texts, in a tomb dating from 168 BC.[2] They included two nearly complete copies of the text, referred to as Text A (甲) and Text B (乙), both of which reverse the traditional ordering and put the Te Ching section before the Tao Ching, which is why the Henricks translation of them is named "Te-Tao Ching". Based on calligraphic styles and imperial naming taboo avoidances, scholars believe that Text A can be dated to about the first decade and Text B to about the third decade of the 2nd century BC.[6] In 1993, the oldest known version of the text, written on bamboo tablets, was found in a tomb near the town of Guodian (郭店) in Jingmen, Hubei, and dated prior to 300 BC what difference a 100 years make? would superstition flourished polluting the pristine materializm of GD?

...all in due course.. 《道德經》: 39 昔之得一者：天得一以清；地得一以寧；神得一以靈；谷得一以盈；萬物得一以生；侯王得一以為天下貞。 From containing the One Heaven gets its purity; Earth – its stability; spirits – their numinosity; streams – their fullness; all beings – their lives, the princes and kings – are valued 貴in the Under Heaven. 其致之，but when (the One) leaves those 天無以清，將恐裂；地無以寧，將恐發；神無以靈，將恐歇；谷無以盈，將恐竭；萬物無以生，將恐滅；侯王無以貴高將恐蹶。 The Heaven would not be pure and would rend; the Earth would not be stable and would split; the spirits will not be numinous and would expire; the streams will not be full and would dry out; all beings would not live and would die out; the princes and kings would not be noble and high and would fall. 故貴以賤為本，高以下為基。 But it is known that the valuable is based on the cheap, the high stands on the low. 是以侯王自稱孤、寡、不穀。此非以賤為本耶？非乎？ Therefore (to attract the One) the princes and kings belittle themselves by such self-appellations as ‘I the lonely’, ‘I the orphan’, ‘I the grain-less’. Is this not ‘the cheap as the foundation? 故致數譽無譽。不欲琭琭如玉，珞珞如石。 Therefore the highest fame is no fame. Do not be bright like jade, be like un-hewn stone. (to attract the One).

道德經39 《道德經》: 昔之得一者：天得一以清；地得一以寧；神得一以靈；谷得一以盈；萬物得一以生；侯王得一以為天下貞。其致之，天無以清，將恐裂；地無以寧，將恐發；神無以靈，將恐歇；谷無以盈，將恐竭；萬物無以生，將恐滅；侯王無以貴高將恐蹶。故貴以賤為本，高以下為基。是以侯王自稱孤、寡、不穀。此非以賤為本耶？非乎？故致數譽無譽。不欲琭琭如玉，珞珞如石。 《老子河上公章句·法本》: 昔之得一者：天得一以清，地得一以寧，神得一以靈，谷得一以盈，萬物得一以生，侯王得一以為天下貞。其致之。天無以清將恐裂，地無以寧將恐發，神無以靈將恐歇，谷無以盈將恐竭，萬物無以生將恐滅，侯王無以貴高將恐蹶。故貴以賤為本，高以下為基是以侯王自謂孤、寡、不轂。此非以賤為本邪？非乎！故致數輿無輿，不欲琭琭如玉，珞珞如石。 《馬王堆·老子甲德經》: 昔之得一者：天得一以清；地得□以寧；神得一以霝；浴得一以盈；侯□□□而以為正。其致之也，胃天毌已清將恐□，胃地毌□□將恐□，胃神毌已霝將恐歇，胃浴毌已盈將恐渴，胃侯王毌已貴□□□□□。故必貴而以賤為本，必高矣而以下為基。夫是以侯王自胃□孤寡不穀，此其賤□□與？非□？故致數與無與。是故不欲□□若玉，硌硌□□。 《馬王堆·老子乙德經》: 昔得一者：天得一以清；地得一以寧；神得一以霝；浴得一盈；侯王得一以為天下正。其至也，胃天毌已，清將恐蓮；地毌已寧，將恐發；神毌□□□恐歇；谷毌已□，將渴侯王毌已貴以高將恐蹶。故必貴以賤為本，必高矣而以下為基。夫是以侯王自胃孤、寡、不穀。此其賤之本與？非也。故至數輿無輿。是故不欲祿﹦若玉硌﹦若石。

That is very likely given that modern science is a religion. But that's beside the point. The point is LZ's main subject - the Dao is easily understandable from the mystical POV. What is it from the materialist POV? i recommend this article, very witty. http://www.lewrockwell.com/2005/03/fred-reed/skeptic-of-darwinism/

Sure, here is your god 道沖而用之或不盈。淵兮似萬物之宗。挫其銳，解其紛，和其光，同其塵。湛兮似或存。吾不知誰之子，象帝之先 4 here is your ghosts and spirits 昔之得一者：天得一以清；地得一以寧；神得一以靈；谷得一以盈；萬物得一以生；侯王得一以為天下貞。其致之，天無以清，將恐裂；地無以寧，將恐發；神無以靈，將恐歇；谷無以盈，將恐竭；萬物無以生，將恐滅；侯王無以貴高將恐蹶。故貴以賤為本，高以下為基。是以侯王自稱孤、寡、不穀。此非以賤為本耶？非乎？故致數譽無譽。不欲琭琭如玉，珞珞如石。 39 治大國若烹小鮮。以道蒞天下，其鬼不神；非其鬼不神，其神不傷人；非其神不傷人，聖人亦不傷人。夫兩不相傷，故德交歸焉。60 and most importantly Dao. Its ironic that materialists / atheists embrace Dao so eagerly, becouse it is the most prominently anti-materialist concept one can find. Kinda like evolution but even more so.

This is interesting, not to argue but who?

It depends on what you believe LZ is: is it a unique stand-alone book, or part and parcel of the contemporary cultural multiverse. If its the former then nothing is provable and LZ could be about anything that pleases the gentle reader; if its the latter then LZ is a pragmatic theist as was everybody till maybe 100 years ago.

Yes naturally they are gods but of a special kind. The author is creating an ideological foundation for teh centralised empire that was formed under Han again after the initial but failed try of Qin. So these bright gods are the imperial depersonalised and centralised gods as opposed to local tangible gods of grain altars, rivers and mountains of folk religion.

I am always bemused by suchlike vague inquiries 'I am looking for a teacher', ' I am looking for a true practitioner'. A teacher of what? A true practitioner of what exactly?

could be. recycling of what?

ZZ be my witness 子犁往問之曰：「叱！避！無怛化！」倚其戶與之語曰：「偉哉造物！又將奚以汝為？將奚以汝適？以汝為鼠肝乎？以汝為蟲臂乎？」子來曰：「父母於子，東西南北，唯命之從。陰陽於人，不翅於父母，彼近吾死而我不聽，我則悍矣，彼何罪焉！夫大塊載我以形，勞我以生，佚我以老，息我以死。故善吾生者，乃所以善吾死也。今之大冶鑄金，金踊躍曰『我且必為鏌鋣』，大冶必以為不祥之金。今一犯人之形，而曰『人耳人耳』 Then, leaning against the door, he said (to the dying man), 'Great indeed is the Creator! What will He now make you to become? Where will He take you to? Will He make you the liver of a rat, or the arm of an insect? Zi-lai replied, 'Wherever a parent tells a son to go, east, west, south, or north, he simply follows the command. The Yin and Yang are more to a man than his parents are. If they are hastening my death, and I do not quietly submit to them, I shall be obstinate and rebellious. There is the great Mass (of nature);-- I find the support of my body in it; my life is spent in toil on it; my old age seeks ease on it; at death I find rest on it: what has made my life a good will make my death also a good. Here now is a great founder, casting his metal. If the metal were to leap up (in the pot), and say, "I must be made into a (sword like the) Mo-ye," the great founder would be sure to regard it as uncanny. So, again, when a form is being fashioned in the mould of the womb, if it were to say, "I must become a man; I must become a man,"

There is a contradiction there. Are things different or are they mixed/merged? merge (mûrj) v. merged, merg·ing, merg·es v.tr. 1. To cause to be absorbed, especially in gradual stages. 2. To combine or unite: merging two sets of data. v.intr. 1. To blend together, especially in gradual stages. 2. To become combined or united. See Synonyms at mix. [Latin mergere, to plunge.] Whatever it is, that is not what ZZ meant. His logic is: I dreamt becoming a butterfly in a sleep. Sleep is a small death. This small death is a premonition of real death. Therefore I am destined 有分 to be reborn as a butterfly. This is called transformation (rebirth, Metempsychosis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metempsychosis Metempsychosis is a philosophical term in the Greek language referring to transmigration of the soul, especially its reincarnation after death.) of all sentient things.

i just looked around. no we are not.

depends on what you mean by merging of things.

That is very aptly put. Yes, you should be able to. If those who make their living from it being secret tell you. But they will lose their livelihood if they do. So they wont.

yeah....i know... IMHO the commenters can not be trusted, like i said there was a paradigm shift cutting off the meaning. Just look at that paragraph in HFZ - there is a distinct feeling that the author is creating Folk etymology - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folk_etymology Folk etymology, or pseudo-etymology, is change in a word or phrase over time resulting from the replacement of an unfamiliar form by a more familiar one to suit his ends.

my point was that limit here means some kind of a spatial border, which your quote bears out. The Heaven is limitless above, the mother of all empires is limitless below, a match that will last long.

Proceeding to explore the unfamiliar nomenclature in the middle of the chain, we will look at the logic of 蚤服=>重積德. Why an early (easy, peaceful) victory should lead to accretion of De? Simply because war is a bad thing and ending it early saves lives, consequently increasing one’s moral capital 兵者，凶器也。爭者，逆德也 http://ctext.org/school-of-the-military?searchu=%E5%BE%B7&page=4#n43521 ‘fighting is contrary to De’ Further, lets look at the quote 神莫知其極。昭知天下，通於四極。 http://ctext.org/pre-qin-and-han?searchu=%E8%8E%AB%E7%9F%A5%E5%85%B6%E6%A5%B5#n48525 proving that ‘the limit’ in question means the borders of the state, therefore the objective of a ruler desiring to establish a longevous dynasty is to expand his empire limitlessly to the four seas, ‘from sea to shining sea’. The next moot expression is ‘the mother of the state’ 有國之母 not attested elsewhere, however, there is a formula 陛下父事天，母事地， http://ctext.org/pre-qin-and-han?searchu=%E5%A4%A9%E6%AF%8D&page=2#n66989 ‘the emperor makes Heaven into his father, and the Earth his mother’, which means that the mother of the state is the whole wide Earth, upon the entirety of which the emperor has to establish his domain The last 3 links of the logical chain summarize the desired results: 長久=>深根固柢=>長生久視 Longevous and lasting 長久 is actually a contraction of a popular formula Heaven is longevous, Earth is lasting 天長地久 meaning that the dynasty will live as long as these two, if Heaven is properly served and the entire Earth conquered. In that case the state will be strong as in 禮者，所以固國家，定社稷，使君無失其民者也 http://ctext.org/pre-qin-and-han?searchu=%E5%9B%BA%E5%9B%BD#n53533 the sacrifices make the state strong, the altars of grain and Earth stable, so the ruler would not lose his people. Lastly, the expression 長生久視 ‘long life and lasting vision’ was never intended for an individual but meant rather the long life of the dynasty and its state. ‘The lasting vision’ here has long baffled sinologists unable to explain what does it mean exactly. Turns out it meant the combined gaze of the emperor and the Heaven on their subjects as above: 明視 spiritual gaze.

thats actually pretty good because an early harvest of own crops would mean the ability to wage wars on the neighnours as was the wont of archaic agricultural societies.

This chapter is a logical chain of reasoning, albeit with unobvious logical connection between the links 治人事天莫若嗇。In governing people and serving heavens there is nothing like good harvesting 夫唯嗇，是謂早服；good harvesting means early victory 蚤服 早服謂之重積德；early victory means accumulation of De 重積德則無不克；accumulated De means invincibility 無不克則莫知其極；invincibility means no limit 莫知其極，可以有國；no limit means getting the country 有國之母，可以長久；getting the country’ mother means longevity 是謂深根固柢，longevity means deep roots strong base 長生久視之道。 deep roots strong base means Dao of long life eternal vision To simplify it further 治人事天=>嗇/穑=>蚤服=>重積德=>無不克=>莫知其極=>有國=>有國之母=>長久=>深根固柢=>長生久視 General connection of ‘managing people, serving Heaven’ with invincibility, De and ‘having the state’ is broadly discussed in 《大戴禮記 - Da Dai Li Ji》 [Han (206 BC - 220)] 少閒: 乃有商履代興。商履循禮法，以觀天子，天子不說，則嫌於死。成湯卒受天命，不忍天下粒食之民刈戮，不得以疾死，故乃放移夏桀，散亡其佐。乃遷姒姓于杞。發厥明德，順民天心嗇地，作物配天，制典慈民。咸合諸侯，作八政，命於總章。服禹功以脩舜緒，為副于天。粒食之民昭然明視，民明教，通于四海，海之外肅慎、北發、渠搜、氐、羌來服 When planning the sacrifices – observe Heaven, Heaven does not speak - catastrophe is suspected. Tang, the first ruler of the Shang dynasty received Heavenly mandate, would not tolerate the grain-eaters being exterminated…. displaced Jie of Xia* …deployed his spiritual De, settled the obedient people in harvest lands 穡地 according to Heaven’s heart, matched crops 作物 with Heaven’s will, … the grain-eaters (peasants) saw his spiritual eye 明視 on them …. to the four seas and beyond, all the barbarians submitted. *http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jie_of_Xia Jie with a halberd, representing oppression, and sitting on two ladies

He he;) what does parable of the fishes say in his translation?

well, since the inquiring minds want to know... 道德經12 《道德經》: 五色令人目盲；五音令人耳聾；五味令人口爽；馳騁田獵，令人心發狂；難得之貨，令人行妨。是以聖人為腹不為目，故去彼取此。 《老子河上公章句·檢欲》: 五色令人目盲；五音令人耳聾；五味令人口爽；馳騁畋獵，令人心發狂，難得之貨，令人行妨。是以聖人為腹，不為目，故去彼取此。 《馬王堆·老子甲道經》: 五色使人目明；馳騁田臘，使人□□□；難得之貨，使人之行方；五味使人之口爽；五音使人之耳聾。是以聲人之治也，為腹不□□，故去罷耳此。 《馬王堆·老子乙道經》: 色使人目盲；馳騁田臘，使人心發狂；難得之貨，○使人之行仿；五味使人之口爽；五音使人之耳□。是以聖人之治也，為腹而不為目，故去彼而取此。 This is a fairly straightforward passage but again with a specific meaning, forgotten by the time it was written down. Luckily this meaning was preserved in just one locus Whatever that means, it has something to do with the chain of command, whereas the decision makers and the informants are on separate rungs thereof. So the meaning of the chapter is that the sages should be kept by the emperor or self-limit themselves to staying within the seat of the government, getting info from officials on the perimeter. Otherwise the sages will be as dazzled by the info as the sensory organs of the people in the preamble sentence, making the sages unable to govern effectively. In other words sages should 去彼 stay away from what is far 取此 and keep to themselves. Qù bǐ qǔ cǐ appears to be a proverb describing a self evidently optimal behavior in those times.

they seem to be 2 different individuals in the same generation, with the same surname （1）李涵虚——周道山、吴天秩、李道山、李道育、银道源等； （2）吴天秩——柯葆真、汪东亭、柯载书、李云岚、周俊夫等；银道源－－张义尚（1910－2000） （3）柯葆真——柯兆平（子）、孙吉甫；汪东亭——魏尧（则之）、汪臻卿（子）、徐颂尧（海印子）、蔡潜谷等； （4）魏尧——陈孟；徐颂尧——李仲强、陈宗涛、徐竹茂、施菊英、李廷光、胡澄阳等；蔡潜谷——陈毓照（天乐）、朱彩娟（天真）等；附录：徐颂尧－－李仲强－－吴君确－－马炳文（合阳）、马寿俊（谷阳）〔台湾一派〕 http://hi.baidu.com/gaifo110/item/49086b8ce1444550840fab19

yes, but only partially. You see, TTC is a practical manual and as such should contain instructions in a basic three part format 1. Premise/Problem 2 Instruction 3 Results. What you offer is a description, while i believe that there is an instruction in there.

李仲强－－吴君确－－马炳文、马寿俊 http://blog.sina.com.cn/s/blog_4953b81b0101hvd7.html 吴君确http://baike.baidu.com/view/10583481.htm