Taoist Texts

no this forum has nothing to do with the fact that you bought your real method from a commercial outfit, regardless from somebody on this forum or not. It also has nothing to do with the fact that, by criticizing Drew you protect their income and your investment, since if Drew can get the method for free from a book, - those two will decrease. So...what do you think about Jinlianpai's theories?

May be you don't take money personally but those you bought your real method from - do. By criticizing Drew here you improve their market share AND protect your investment, so it comes down to money being involved one way or the other. As to protecting some unknown 'other people' - no. That excuse for criticizing Drew does not hold water, for there is no school that would give the student a firm guarantee that he will achieve anything or will not hurt himself. Thats why there are disclaimers. may be;). What about our friend Jinlianpai here - is he wrong or is he right?

never able. thats why he would never squeeze throu.

if they fear death punishment why would they commit crimes?

Because of the money. The angry posters come here in coordinated teams to push their seminars for money. They do that through negative advertisement. Some members do not like that. Thats why. Negative campaigning - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_campaigning There are a number of techniques used in negative campaigning. Among the most effective is running advertisements attacking an opponent's personality

wei stands here for a ancillary verb - to become or to appear or to be. " If any one becomes an exception to the general fear of punishments...." Cf. 如徒知病之名而坐觀之，何以為奇？ Had they merely known the names of the complaints, but done nothing besides, looking quietly on, would there have been anything wonderful in them?

thats understandable no, i think i squeezed out of ctext all i could for now. this will do. now i will revisit that mother-son chapter you reminded me about.

oh its the old maslow pyramid in action

"Since they are thus numerous, what more shall be done for them?" "Enrich them," was the reply. "And when they have been enriched, what more shall be done?" The Master said, "Teach them."《子路 - Zi Lu》” ​those pairs of opposites had to be taught, they are what makes men to function as a society. Chpt. 28 takes off from the quote above. yes it could that. once a primal tribe gathers together to wage war against the neighbors or to build an irrigation system - the natural leaders come forward.

Sure. Prepare to be bored. “Graham later argued that the internal evidence suggested Zhuangzi had never seen the text of the Laozi (The Dào Dé Jing) and probably thought of Lao Dan as a Confucian.” http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/zhuangzi/ “子適衛，冉有僕。子曰：「庶矣哉！」冉有曰：「既庶矣。又何加焉？」曰：「富之。」曰：「既富矣，又何加焉？」曰：「教之。」 When the Master went to Wei, Zan You acted as driver of his carriage. The Master observed, "How numerous are the people!" You said, "Since they are thus numerous, what more shall be done for them?" "Enrich them," was the reply. "And when they have been enriched, what more shall be done?" The Master said, "Teach them."《子路 - Zi Lu》” 黑白分明，然後民知所去就，民知所去就，然後可以致治 Once the people had been thought the black and white, they will know to come and go according to orders, once they know coming and going – they can be governed. 《春秋繁露 - Chun Qiu Fan Lu》[Western Han (206 BC - 9)] Dong Zhong Shu 《儒家 - Confucianism》 無不欲彊齊而弱秦。此雄雌之國也，勢不兩立為雄，雄者得天下矣。」秦王跽而問之曰：「何以使秦無為雌而可？」…夫秦齊雄雌之國，秦彊則齊弱矣，此勢不兩雄。 …Ji and Qin are the male and female states which can not coexist…the male will obtain the Underheaven..《史記 - Shiji》Western Han] 109 BC-91 BC Sima Qian 管子曰：「倉廩實，知禮節；衣食足，知榮辱。」民非足也，而可治之者，自古及今，未之嘗聞。 Guan-zi said: [once the storehouses are full – the people will understand the ritual; once the food and clothing is sufficient – the people will understand fame and shame.] But when people are not sated and could be governed – since old till now, that is unheard of. 《新書 - Xin Shu》[Western Han (206 BC - 9)] Jia Yi 公孫鞅曰：為法令置官置吏樸足以知法令之謂，以為天下正者 Gong-sun Yang replied: 'There should be instituted, for the laws, government officers who are able to understand the contents of the decrees, and who should be the regulators of the empire《商君書 - Shang Jun Shu》[Warring States (475 BC - 221 BC)] 《法家 - Legalism》 人主身行方正，使人有禮，遇人有理，行發於身，而為天下法式者 If a man is righteous in his conduct… he should be made into a regulator of laws of the Underheaven 《管子 - Guanzi》[Warring States - Han (475 BC - 220)] 皆學問於孔子，遂為天下顯士 All who studied under Confucius got to become the illustrious officers of Underheaven 《韓詩外傳 - Han Shi Wai Zhuan》[Western Han (206 BC - 9)]《儒家 - Confucianism》 使人以幣先焉，鑿培而遁之，為天下顯武 Before the ambassador could give him gifts, he broke through the back wall and run away, later becoming an illustrious warrior of Underheaven《淮南子 - Huainanzi》 [Western Han (206 BC - 9)] 如此，則無以祖洽於眾也。 In this condition of things it will be impossible to put one's self at the head of the multitudes, and secure harmony among them. 《禮記 - Liji》 [Warring States (475 BC - 221 BC)] 《儒家 - Confucianism》 28 道德經: 知其雄雌，守其雌，為天下顯武。為天下顯武，常德不離，復歸於嬰兒。 Select among the officials those understanding the male and female politics but will cleave to femininity. Make them into illustrious warriors of Underheaven. If so, and their De will not be deviated from, the Underheaven will return to the state of an infant. 知其白黑，守其黑，為天下法式。為天下法式，常德不忒，復歸於無極。 Select among the officials those understanding how to make people to obey active and passive commands but who will cleave to passivity. Make them into the regulators of laws of Underheaven. If so, and their De will be impeccable, the Underheaven will return to the limitless. 知其榮辱，守其辱，為天下洽。為天下谷，常德乃足，復歸於樸。 Select among the officials those understanding how to motivate people with fame and shame but who will cleave to shame. Make them into pacifiers of Underheaven. If so, and their De is at sufficiency, the Underheaven will return to the state of an uncarved block. 樸散則為器，聖人用之，則為官長，故大制不割。 An uncarved block is something the utensils (and officials) are made of, the sages use it to make the top officials from it, if so, it will be the grand system of governing and the state will not be dismembered.

thats a great question and i think i have the answer, I would suggest that these are 3 iterations to bring the country into the ideal condition: a newborn-> the limitless-> the uncarved block.

because its a governing manual. for governing you gotta recruit talent and give them titles with all the trimmings the last line is a word play or rather a metaphor play. "As the utensils are carved out of an uncarved block' similarly suitable talent could be recruited when the country has been returned to the condition of the uncarved block.. Thats how the sages do it." Well one of the reasons why i consider the Lao/Kun split an artificial one is that pu was inherently a Confucian concept The Grand soup is unseasoned,-in honour of its simplicity. The Grand symbols of jade have no engraving on them, in admiration of their simple plainness. There is the beauty of the red varnish and carved border (of a carriage), but (the king) rides in a plain one, doing honour to its plainness. In all these things it is simply the idea of the simplicity that is the occasion of the preference and honour. for governing you need many officials not just one. also this passage is often translated as 'the sage becomes a top official" but he cant become many, if you know what i mean. not just 'great control' but also 'dismemberment'. in my next post i will try to demonstrate that these pairs of opposit are actually coming from legalism (which to me and some modern scholars is daoism) exactly thats why the repetition of it doesnt make sense

also 武 vs 式 vs 牧 yes its a valid counterargument to my theory, i accept that

good question. lets start with finding out what your keywords below mean in context here qi 器 is a contraction of a standard combo 名器 title and privileges is a combo again not a one head official but 'the top officials'. Pls recall 天下名士顯人 'illustrious and famous" above da zhi is a specific term for the whole juridical-penal system. Pls cf, the keywords 重刑少賞，上愛民，民死上；重賞輕刑，上不愛民，民不死上。利出一空者，其國無敵；利出二空者，國半利；利出十空者，其國不守。重刑明大制，不明者，六蝨也。六蝨成群，則民不用。是故興國罰行則民親，賞行則民利。行罰，重其輕者，輕者不至，重者不來，此謂以刑去刑，刑去事成。罪重刑輕，刑至事生，此謂以刑致刑，其國必削。 Making Orders Strict:...: If penalties are heavy and rewards few, then the ruler loves his people and they will die for him; if rewards are heavy and penalties light, then the ruler does not love his people nor will they die for him. If the profit disappears through one outlet only, the state will have no equal; if it disappear through two outlets, the state will have only half the profit; but if the profit disappears through ten outlets, the state will not be preserved. If penalties are clear, there will be great control, but if they are not clear, there will be the six parasites. If the six kinds of parasites come together, then the people are not fit for employment. Therefore, in a prosperous country, when punishments are applied, the people will be closely associated with the ruler, and when rewards are applied they will reap profit. In applying punishments, light offences should be punished heavily; if light offences do not appear, heavy punishments will not come. This is said to be abolishing penalties by means of penalties, and if penalties are abolished, affairs will succeed. If crimes are serious and penalities light, penalties will appear and trouble will arise. This is said to be bringing about penalties by means of penalties, and such a state will surely be dismembered.

creek illustrious name bath

i read what you guys wrote with interest but have to hoe my row further. where were we? oh yeah... So 3 sentences, same thing in different 3 wordings, 2 words not making sense at all. Combining the Underheaven with a geological feature does not occur anywhere else except in epigone quotations of ZZ, Wenzi and Heshanggong. These 3 authors, in their turn make a very unconvincing attempt at rationalizing it, Therefore this locus must be a scribal error with the meaning of the entire passage forgotten early on. Luckily this expression was preserved in 'Confucian' literature as a standard combo 為天下名士顯人 'to become or made into famous and illustrious men of the Underheaven'. the nonsensical creek 谿 is actually a scribal error for illustrious 顯 , while the incongruous bath 浴 is an error for famous 名. 可笑！3 000 years of pontification about creeks and ravines all because the Taoists have not done their Confucian homework.

That’s the hypothesis we will use to analyze these 3 repetitive statements then 知其雄，守其雌，為天下谿。為天下谿，常德不離，復歸於嬰兒。 Make the Underheaven (creek?), constant De not deviated from, returning to the condition of a newborn. 知其白，守其黑，為天下式。為天下式，常德不忒，復歸於無極。 Make the Underheaven orderly, constant De is not harmed, returning to the Limitless. 知其榮，守其辱，為天下谷。為天下谷/浴，常德乃足，復歸於樸。 Make the Underheaven (valley/bath?), constant De complete, returning to the condition of uncarved block.

Thats the thing: is these 3 repetitions the same idea or 3 different ones?

I was meaning to read her research for some time, thanks for that I did not know that. i will take that into account when finding out where these ravines and creeks came from defo, totally

yes it is, your welcome anytime.

These captions from left to right: Lu's standard performance, someone named Pan Hai-rong, 'starting posture 起式， name of a participating student, full name of the style 華嶽心意六合八法 huá yuè xīn yì liù hé bā fǎ

http://waterspirit6x8.tripod.com/id64.html

Yes those are totally useless in their current shape, largely because the subject of the sentence is not specified, but its gonna get worse before it gets better. Lets pick one of the more strange expressions 為天下式 ‘become/make Underheaven’s model’ and discover that it occurs also in 22: 是以聖人抱一為天下式 ‘the sage embraces One, becomes/makes Underheaven’s model’. Still not much sense but at least there is the subject, the sage. Now, looking at the Mawangdui variants of 22 we see something weird: instead of model 式shi it has a governor 為天下牧 mu. To become a governor makes more sense than to become a model, or a valley or a creek. Emboldened by this we make a search on 天下牧 governors in Underheaven, returning two passages from The Book of Han http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Han 《漢書 - Han Shu》 12 王莽傳中: 天下牧守皆以前有翟義、趙明等領州郡，懷忠孝，封牧為男，守為附城。又封舊恩戴崇、金涉、箕閎、楊並等子皆為男。 In Underheaven, the Governors and the Protectors … being loyal and filial…granted governorship they were made into Lords, granted Protector-ship they were enfeoffed with fiefs. 37 多刻天下牧守印章，備置公卿百官。 There were many seals carved for Governors and Protectors of Underheaven, there were appointments of Dukes , Ministers, and the Hundred Officials. Comparing this with the text of received 28, we do find the same and related keywords there 道德經28 知其雄，守 Protectors其雌，為天下Underheaven谿。為天下谿，常德不離，復歸於嬰兒。 知其白，守Protectors其黑，為天下式。為天下式 Governors of Underheaven，常德不忒，復歸於無極。 知其榮，守Protectors其辱，為天下Underheaven谷。為天下谷，常德乃足，復歸於樸。 樸散則為器 officials，聖人用之，則為官長top officialdom，故大制governing structure不割。 Enough to hint that this passage is about building up a hierarchy of state officials in a checked and balanced way, since it includes the pairs of opposites male-female, black-white, fame-shame. Coming back to the equation ‘know+protect’ we can expand it now as know (white) + Protectors ( black) = Governors for the Underheaven. The last unknown is 知zhi (know). Could it be a title as well? Of course it can. E.g. 知州Pinyin: zhī zhōu senior provincial government official in dynastic China If so what would the general import of the whole passage be? Probably it means something like: Check and balance the top officials, promote those with unswerving De, bring the whole country to the state of uncarved block or a newborn (which are without internal strife), then out of that uncarved block select the new officials as needed and the whole grand system of governing will be safe.

Another passage that contains formula ‘know 知 +protect守=governing’ is found in 《荀子 - Xunzi》[Warring States (475 BC - 221 BC)] Xunzi ([ɕy̌ntsì]; Chinese: 荀子; Wade–Giles: Hsün Tzu, c. 310 – c. 235 BC, alt. c. 314 – c. 217 B.C.)[1] was a Chinese Confucian philosopher who lived during the Warring States period and contributed to one of the Hundred Schools of Thought. Xunzi believed man's inborn tendencies need to be curbed through education and ritual, counter to Mencius's view that man is innately good. He believed that ethical norms had been invented to rectify mankind. Educated in the state of Qi, Xunzi was associated with the Confucian school, but his philosophy has a pragmatic flavour compared to Confucian optimism. Some scholars attribute it to the divisive times.[2] Xunzi was one of the most sophisticated thinkers of his time, and was the teacher of Li Si and Han Fei Zi. (a charming ruist anecdote) 《宥坐》 孔子觀於魯桓公之廟，有欹器焉，孔子問於守廟者曰：「此為何器？」 守廟者曰：「此蓋為宥坐之器，」 孔子曰：「吾聞宥坐之器者，虛則欹，中則正，滿則覆。」 孔子顧謂弟子曰：「注水焉。」弟子挹水而注之。 中而正，滿而覆，虛而欹，孔子喟然而歎曰：「吁！惡有滿而不覆者哉！」 子路曰：「敢問持滿有道乎？」 孔子曰：「聰明聖知，守之以愚；功被天下，守之以讓；勇力撫世，守之以怯，富有四海，守之以謙：此所謂挹而損之之道也。」 Confucius, on a tour of Lu’s temple, saw a ‘reclining vessel’, and asked the keeper: what for is this vessel? The keeper said: it’s a vessel to be on the right hand side of the king for remonstration. Confucius, said: I have heard about the remonstration vessel, when empty it reclines, when half-full it is upright, when full it upturns. Then he ordered his students: pour water in it. The students ladled water and poured herein. Indeed, when empty it reclined, when half-full it was upright, when full it upturned. Confucius sighing in admiration said: Ah! To be full and not to upturn! Zi-lu asked: dare I ask about Dao of preserving fullness? Confucius said: being wise and knowledgeable – protect it with stupidity; deserving the Underheaven – protect it with yielding; being brave to conquer the world – protect it with timidity; rich to own the four seas – protect it with respectfulness. This would be called the Dao of ‘advance and retreat’.

I am sure Dusty meant no offense whatsoever. His question was directed at me, please dont feel bad Stosh.