Yascra

Excuse me, but what else are you saying in this sentence then:

 

being a mahayana student yourself, it ought to be clear what enlightenment entails, that its not some pot of gold at the end of one's journey.

?

To me that suggests that a mahayana student should think ..., know ... and be clear about ..., doesn't it?

 

The whole process of right practice (transcendence and refinement) is itself enlightening. And right practice is not some complex set-up or detail that one has to follow, it is simply to bring awareness to the fore of one's body, speech and mind as often as one can,

Well, but if you aren't even aware of making religious-biased suggestions when you inherently suggest that persons who you regard to be mahayana students shall share this and that of your views, then what exactly do you mean by "awareness"?

that is one of the points I was aiming at with my more "extreme" examples, by the way. While s.one runs amok he might feel more aware than he ever was - but that's due to the fact that what s/he perceives to be awareness IS NOT ultimate awareness.

So, sorry, I think some of your words are not so bad, but if you have such great problems to applie this to a given example, I have reason to doubt that they are your own words.

Which is also okay to some extend, but in this case there's nothing to discuss, as obviously s.one can't discuss a point that's not truly his or her own thought.

 

and in order for this awareness to reach immediate present spontaneity, one learns thru practice of the preliminaries, which are the foundational works that helps to polish this awareness, to the end that it shines stainlessly.

Might you explain what you consider to be preliminaries?

 

I'm not a mahayana student in any religious way, just for your information. I'm not completely done with my experiences of Tibetan buddhism, but to be honest I haven't found any religion which would really emphasize searching for truth. Real buddhism does advice the latter.. But real buddhism has nothing to do with religion, quite the opposite. Which is the case for most spiritual cores of the existing religions.

If you want to sort me into some religion there's some interest in taoism or esoteric buddhism at the moment, but I'm still for sure closest to christianity. You don't change twenty years of cultural influence in two years.

 

Greetz

Can you please clarify the above? Not sure what point you are trying to make.

 

In short: If holding a correct view about what complete, perfect enlightenment entails is such an easy task for mahayana students, as you seem to suggest, Tibet should be full of fully enlightened buddhas, which obviously is not the case, so my conclusion is that obviously the task of proper sowing or treating the correct path and holding the correct view is not that easy.

it ought to be clear what enlightenment entails

 

Actually I do think that assuming you know what full and perfect enlightenment entails as long as not being a fully awakened budda might in itself be an even greater hindrance to correct practice than most of the things that might come or not come due to that practice.

The original quote encourages us to practice without thought of results. It can be summed up with yet another quote "Think not of the harvest but only of proper sowing."

But, ehm, sorry, I think to some extent this quote is bullshit.

A farmer will choose seeds according to what he wants the harvest to be, right? So, the choice to, for example, sow wheat, which you can eat, and not to sow weeds, is due to the thought of whether the harvest will be something that might be helpful, for himself and/or others.

 

Ok, d'accord so far that you should not practice to particularly reach some of the mentioned potential results, I think we agree that they are the sort of being "useless". D'accord also if you mean to not think about results WHILE you're doing something, as this would be a kind of distraction. But as a general attitude, I think, you'll hardly find out that the work you invest in sowing weeds is a waste of time if you never look at what came out of your seeds.

 

When the speaker lists the things that have not come they are a list of the flowery trappings of the Tao, things that can distract us from our desired destination which in my case would be enlightenment. "The peace which passeth all understanding."

So here now you define enlightenment as a kind of peace, right? Which is exactly on of the aformentioned results you should not aim at, right?

 

Alcoholics find peace in drinking alcohol, many persons find some kind of peace that passeth at least their "understanding" by having sex.

How do you know it's enlightenment if you don't care about results; what, in the end, IS this enlightenment you're looking for?

How do you know it is REAL enlightenment and not your false thoughts about what enlightenment might be?

Is it okay to go running amok and kill dozens of people if you find peace in doing it? If, why, and if not, why not?

I think actually many people who do this amok-running-stuff might feel very calm and clear while they are doing this. How do you find out, if, that this kind of deed is not "proper sowing" anyway?

 

...

 

Get my point?

@Chang, please don't get me wrong about it, it's not that I'm too lazy to think about it, and I'm aware of the fact that I made up the mentioned scenario of "if, when, else...".

I just think as long as one can't use own words to go deeper into how one holds this view we can't be sure we're talking about the same thing.

Haha!

Oki, no problem

That's one of the reasons I do play lotto. It is a fact that you cannot win if you do not play. Nothings gonna' change my world. (What song is that from?)

 

To be honest, it is one of the reasons why I don't.

But as soon as you observe it it is no longer absolute zero.

 

(Hehehe. That is not a valid statement but it sounds like some of the stuff I hear from quantum physicists.)

 

Eeeh, not absolutely, actually. They would just claim that at the moment they'd observe it they could not absolutely KNOW about it

It is not a case of optimism. Everything that happens effects us. If I were suddenly kidnapped and kept chained in a dungeon just about everything in my life would change, far more so than winning a million dollars.

Your habits, maybe?

At least in your example you would notice that something changed, while the things that really matter might remain more unaffected, depending on your condition.

 

But this is not what is meant by the original quote, that is something quite different. Read it again and try to see what the writer is suggesting.

What would you say he suggests?

So depending on the circumstances there might not be absolutely absolute absolutes, which might change, as circumstances do, so if you absolutely logically follow this train of thought you might end up with (a) more absolutely absolute absolute(s), while rationally the FIRST thought might be that the general statement of no absolutes shouldn't include absolutely absolute absolutes, so would contradict either one or even two of your not absolute requirements, thereby proving the non-absolute character of the provided preconditions.

?

 

Nothing would happen

 

Are you sure about that?

It's always easy to say that winning a million dollar won't change your life, for example. But when people suddenly do get such a lot of money they tend to be distracted anyway.

 

So I'd say you're being extremely optimistic

Hi again

 

I thought a little about that @OldChi.

 

The point is that I never really was in the situation to have the "choice" to start practicing, or beginning slowly. I just bumped into some key experiences and afterwards couldn't go way back, but on the other hand felt overburdened with going on on my own. And I had to recognize that there was a LOT I'd still have to learn (which is still the case, lol).

Finally I found at least some information to make some steps to get my unexperienced mind and thoughtstream in accordance with these experiences.. but it really took time and efforts.

 

So, I'm on my way to harmonize these things with the "rest of me", but it really wasn't easy.

An experienced teacher could have made it more easy, and that I found this way towards some kind of the right direction actually IS just due to some good books and some teachings about sutras, which make these "old" and sometimes really profound teachings accessible to me.

Actually I still don't know what would be the best things to do for me, and still have to try everything myself, using the bit of information that's already somewhat structured and available to me. I have no time to waste, you know, and though I'm aware of the fact that I HAVE to make some of these experiences on my own to later be prepared, and to be really sure that in the end I'll be doing things right.. clear and complete advice and instructions are really the greatest gift your universe can give to you.

Unfortunately on the one hand there actually ARE not that much teachers who can give these clear and COMPLETE instructions, and on the other hand you really need a VERY special karma to be privileged enough to receive those.

I'm quite happy with what I finally found, also because it brought me to really studying some (mahayana) sutras, so don't get this part wrong. Anyway I'm just doing regular practice for about 1 1/2 years now, several ups and downs and trials of different "ways to do it" included (about 5 years of struggling without an idea what practice meant before this time), and though improving my emotions still tend to be quite unstable. So, when it's fine, I don't care so much.. but woe when there's another "cleansing" phase.

.. ehm, do you get anything of what I'm talking about?

 

Well, maybe I'll ask for a practice journal

 

Peace!

Thank you! Any particular teacher?

 

Uhm, the teacher who told me this energy stuff, a teacher to teach you meditation or what for..?

 

I could recommend some reading if you'd like to

Ouh, hmm ... I know that opinion that you should focus on one system, but I find this is a complicated issue. Where exactly would you say that "practicing a system" starts?

With doing some particular practice of that system? When you do some particular mantra or prayer stuff for example, or receive empowerments?

 

I started my life with a moral "setting" heavily influenced by Christianity, you know, as I suppose most Western people do, and as I even started my spiritual way with this system I'm still influenced by it. But .. I couldn't go on there from some point on, as I found teachings for higher cultivation are completely absent there. So what else can one do but look for something else?

As a consequence, when I find something new, I tend to stop most of the other things for some months to concentrate on this and to some degree "test the effects". But if I find some technique useful, and as I lack personal guidance by someone with sufficient experiences, it's hard for me to stop it in the long run, especially if I find that other techniques don't fill the resulting gap.

I think that's largely due to the fact that I've not made close contacts to a system I feel is "complete" in a way of giving me all I need, and acutally I'm just "on my way" for some few years now. But actually, you know .. if I don't even trust a system, how can I then say that I'll stop everything else forever to do only THIS?

Or are you only talking about persons who have this personal guidance? Well, hm. I know a person who is stuck in her practice for almost a decade now because she's waiting for the person she considers her "teacher". She has health problems and is not the youngest person, but while I suppose that this teacher might not even regard her as a personal student, she is stuck on the thought that she has to be limited to this system, and to him as a person, although she might have (had) a large profit from other influences as well, and might even had good chances to improve her health. Not even to mention the time she is wasting while she is sitting there, getting older and older and coming closer to end her opportunity to practice with her human body and with the contacts to spirituality she has already made in this life. She might die in some years and then almost everything will be lost by a loss of memory, and she will have lost YEARS, just because of not allowing herself to be open for new influences. Is that not very, very sad?

 

So, for me it is not that I would not care about it, and I actually am a sensitive person and sometimes feel tensions there, but it's a difficult topic for me, and I really don't know how to handle it.

For sure, if you are practicing a complete system in which you have full trust, know accomplished masters, have maybe even personal guidance, support and all this, it's great. But how many "seekers" nowadays can claim something like that?

I for my part am surely not practicing a "system". I'm just on a way and practice techniques when I find them helpful. It is not nice to find a balance between different things, especially if you don't know the whole truth, so your judgement about what is good and what is bad might still be completely wrong, right? You can't even be sure that your karmic connections will always lead you to the best, for not all connections you have might be auspicious. So how do you judge what's right and what is to be left out?

 

Until I find a better way to measure it, I'd say I'll stick to my method to just try .. and look whether things are helpful or not, rather than ask about lineage. Of course that's not mastery of a "system". But I think I'd prefer persons who master their own mind, instead of being accomplished masters of particular systems.

As far as I am aware of it, the rule is that you have to change the system anyway when you find something that's more effective (for you?) than what you have practiced till then, as everything else would be a waste of time.

 

Well .. really not an easy topic.

 

Best regards

"Visions better than drugs have not come.

Intelligence exceeding genius has not come.

Titanic strength has not come.

Beauty to attract lovers has not come.

Visitations from the Gods have not come.

Freedom from weariness has not come.

An end to vexing annoyances has not come.

Great wealth has not come.

Fame has not come.

Unlimited understanding of others has not come.

Supernatural powers have not come.

The skill to spontaneously heal has not come.

The gift of prophesy has not come.

None of these things have come.

Yet still I would not forsake this spiritual path."

 

Deng Ming Dao

 

I hold this view but what do others think?

 

That a statement about spiritual accomplishments is a statement about no spiritual accomplishments, maybe?

 

 

Or, in other words, if this is your view, what might happen to your view if some of these things might come?

Any tips would be greatly appreciated.

 

lol

 

Congratulations for having found out yourself that sex weakens your energy.

I think cutting off porn from your life is a great idea, the kind of sexuality you see there is unhealthy anyway, and therefore is a bad example.

 

I'd try emptiness meditation

I just find it sad because I feel like nobody understands me when I tell them "I have no emotions". It must be uncommon because I've been to about 4 therapists so far and they had no idea what I was talking about.

 

Hm, difficult.

 

Actually I do understand that, although I think that some part of your confusion is due to the upside-down-ethics and behavioral standards in your society. If you don't feel a need to have sex, that's not necessarily a bad thing, the over-emphasizing of sexual activities in modern societies actually is a sickness that destroys people's health if you'd ask me.

 

Lack of emotions can be due to a trauma. Actually it is horrible to tap into some kind of emptiness (or other "unusual states) if nobody prepares you for such an experience, or can help you afterwards, and panic is a natural reaction towards this.

I think most of your experiences and bodily as well as psychological reactions might be very natural things. It's just that your society lacks knowledge about such things, so you don't know how to handle it. Well - you'll have to find a way to get used to it, I'm afraid. If you ask me - sorry, but "No", there's no way back, there's no way to stop it, and the more you try to avoid it the harder it gets and the longer it will take. Is this helpful to you?

 

Maybe first you should train yourself to not kill yourself

What's happening to you might be inconvenient, but not necessarily dangerous, or a bad thing ;-)

So, chin up, don't stress yourself. And if you don't feel anything, then first don't try to force it and accept the state as it is. My experience is that there will be some timepoint in which you'll brake down and cry like hell, and if you survive that things will slowly start to become better. But, and that might be something that's hard to understand for people who are younger than even 20 years .. some things need their time ;-)

 

All the best to you!

 

PS: Sorry, didn't read all replies in this thread in detail, so sorry if something had already been said.

 

PPS: And no, meditation after masturbation is not dangerous ^^ It is just like trying to lit a fire (what you're doing during meditation) without any fuel with which you could start or nurish this fire. And energetical damages won't happen to persons without training, so relax about this

Thank you

Hi there,

 

I'm 29 years old, transgender, have had not so great experiences with Tibetan buddhism, have had negative experiences in the trial to find some kind of a teacher (which means I met cheaters whom I allowed to influence me in a bad way and am still not done with some of it), and concerning spiritual practice I'm going on, but tend to be very lonely with my "superstition" in a largely scientific world in which there's no place for things like siddhis, though I'm aware of the fact that such things do exist.

I'd hope for some exchange here on basis of the knowledge about some things a natural-scientific worldview would regard as "should not exist, so if you believe in it, you're insane and should be treated like that".

 

So, hope for some clear views and for some discussions concerning things that are not meant to exist inside the "matrix" ;-)

 

See you,

Ith