Starjumper

There's no such thing as fully enlightened. The initial enlightenment experience (greater emotional bliss in addition to other attributes) ignites an alchemical process. This process may be called enlightenment in Buddhism but in Taoism, which is more realistic, it's called wisdom accumulation or wisdom cultivation and is designated by different levels of the label immortal at it's higher levels. It's a process which never ends as long as we are alive. There are no absolutes and there's no such thing as fully enlightened ... except possibly for the experience itself, you could make a case for that being a fully enlightened state, but it's a temporary condition. Nope, but thanks for the detailed explanation as to why you said it.

When one is enlightened there are no idiots. That is true in a way. When a person is in the midst of an enlightenment experience then there is no judgment possible and therefore there are no idiots, everything is just Hunky Dorry. What happens after that depends on whether you ascribe to the fairytale Buddhist concept of enlightenment or the realistic Taoist one. After the enlightenment experience wears off, which takes a day or two, then judgment returns, then idiots can and will appear. Do you assume I use the term idiots out of anger? I use the term idiots loosely, maybe you can appreciate that, maybe not, I can't wait. There will always be idiots, that's humanity, sadly lost from the Garden of Eden, that's what the untrained mind is, after all, idiotic, insane, self destructive, it's unavoidable. It doesn't mean I'm mad at them, hell, I'm an idiot sometimes too, and it's only whenever I am thinking. Maybe someday, if you're lucky, I'll describe the different stages of the enlightenment process here. They all snap, some snap back though. I don't know which is best.

Once my teacher asked me: "What good is enlightenment, it doesn't make you any more friends, it doesn't make you any happier, and it doesn't make you any more money?" I didn't answer him. But here's an answer for you bums: It makes you hyperaware of all the idiots out there in Taoland and the hopelessness of dealing with them. That's in the more advanced stages. It makes you really appreciate the non idiots though.

I've been enlightened, but I'm not enlightened now.

What I've got is some experience I could relate, my path having been a very fast path due to being with a very powerful master. Scarey recklessly fast, some would say, with the highest rate of enlightenment, some would say. You see, I was right, I said someone would say it and old friendly Buddy said it right away! Special Zircon mind control technique.

Exactly, must include bliss, but bliss levels are way different in each of the two types of enlightenment (the big experience or the mind conditioning.). The part of you that goes away is only the words and concepts of you, your awareness of existence becomes even more keen as the words are dropped. Great awareness also includes a great awareness of yourself, perceiving yourself directly, a new frame of reference. I agree, I feel Lin is the expert here, he's obviously been studying this subject a lot longer than I have and is much better aquainted with the best descriptions, which he can interpret for us. I myself have read some about it and seen some good descriptions but I haven't read that much. What I've got is some experience I could relate, my path having been a very fast path due to being with a very powerful master. Scarey recklessly fast, some would say, with the highest rate of enlightenment, some would say. Image having such a powerful energy healer doing energy work on you each week in order to speed your trip through that door. I wasn't saying that at all. Did you even read the story of the Buddha I posted? The story has its context. The context I was putting out was if you want to know enlightenment, go and practice and stop talking about it. Yes I think I read it =) actually I was just kidding, I think that the type of enlightenment mentioned above should be included as a third category, so now we have 1. the experience, 2. the mental condition, and this new one, which fits somewhere between religious knowledge and third category, ultimate dissolution. I think the thing that contributes to the confusion is the way people are mixing up the different types and not designating which one they are referring to.

If you are saying that enlightenment is when a spirit vanishes into the void then that's cheating, sorry, can't allow that definition. We are concerning our selves with the types of enlightenment while living and how to arrive there. I know I'm in trouble now, at least with all the people that only live in their heads.

That's what you got out of it? Well this is what really happened, according to me: I remember Lin describing it in some detail already (in the alchemy and enlightenment thread), and I only said you need to define what you are talking about, since there are two kinds of enlightenment. You can check it, it's still there. There's the enlightenment experience (the big one) which I did NOT describe, and then there's what you could call an enlightened mental state, which Lin described. So sifu, you missed my point which is no dounbt my fault, but I didn't describe either one of those states. I don't need to describe them since there are plenty of stories in the ancient literature, in Zen literature for example, that describes both the experience and the mental state in good detail, so I guess some people do break the law of can't tell, don't they? But like Lin said, the important thing isn't describing an experience that no one can relate to, it's describing the path to get there. I just felt that a couple of Lins minor points were a little off.

Like him, hell! It is much more than that. You may have been taken by his BS first but from now on he's my cupcake. He hits attraction buttons on me (like he did to you) that fall below my conscious radar and before I realize it, I AM RESPONDING. I can't help myself. Regrettably, I don't actually have the fat but I am willing to let the muscle go soft if that's what he would prefer, because I just love the way he beats others of greater intelligence and experience down with his never witty, yet always macho keyboard strokes. It is a good cover up. I almost forget the point he is failing to make and instead find myself buying his line of agro-debate based solely upon my emotion reaction to his manly views. I think I just need his Yang all over me. It fills my void. That was interesting, I just got this image of a muscular gay guy, keep in mind I'm not saying Satori is that way {{{makes waffling motion with hand}}}, it's just that I got this image of a big muscular policeman party stripper type gay guy and he was looking at me in an amorous manner. Now that was scarey!

Alright!! I haven't had a conversation this mature for years, keep guessing there, little one ... Make sure to not look in the mirror either. ROFL I agree with this. Attachment to bliss states is meaningless, they are just something to enjoy, I call it frosting. Yes, talking about it is pretty silly for reasons you state, however this is what forums are for is talk, often silly talk .... and people did ask questions. Lots of big rolls of fat?

Don't hurt yourself there, little feller.

Hi Lin, your last post is a little confusing, i think you need to edit in some quote marks. Peace to you, Starjumper

As long as there is a view within the mind of the being experiencing, and a thought of there being something experienced, there is a thought, therefore "Now" is still a state with a Mirror and a stand. It must not only be dusted off constantly, but it also must be dropped. A "Now" indicates a time, an experiencer of it and the experience of a "Now" existing. It is said to exist, but only in mind, thus it is a state and if there is attachment to it, it wouldn't be a pure state of awareness. An awareness regarded requires a view of ego, others, a being and a lifespan, or one or the other...in which they will result in one or the other. I agree that if the experiencer of now is thinking about it then that removes them from it. Actually I missread the question in question and ignored the Now word. I was answering "yes" to the following idea: Can You (not Now) exist as pure being, perception, awareness, receptivity?

OK, I'm sorry I mentioned the vinager tasters, it was a joke and due to my tendancy to do a knock down after the uppercut. Just forget the picture. I didn't say bliss states are permanent, did I? Also, enlightenment and the different blisses are definitely states that we can experience so your comments about mind and outflow do not apply. There really is no need to define it. You can't find it anywhere. All there is the need for, is to cultivate. There is no certifying, because there is nothing to certify to. If there was to be something to "define" it, its simply the Non-Dual, non-defiled, non-confused Mind. It is simply the wise, the compassionate, the patient Mind. Ever pervasive, and non-residing. Be careful for the flowery, pop-Daoist/Buddhist vocabulary when investigating the mind. Its not complicated at all. But its non-complicatedness is can simply be one's confusion. One's confusion is simply because they rely too much on worldly knowledge than the wisdom mind. Yes there is a need to define it, because I am referring to the enlightenment experience, which is real enlightenment, while Lin is referring to a type of vague and difficult to describe type of mental condition which one can develope some years after the enlightenment experience and which has many of the same characteristics as the experience itself except it's missing the intense emotional bliss experience that goes along with it. Beware of people who discredit experiences and who instead point back to the mind, they are the ones that are having trouble with the concepts while the shaman simply basks in the beingness of it.

I think this is a thread that can go over 500 pages, the thread that lasts forever. Long after we're gone the "Ah, it's the same old..." will still be going strong, with it's perfect name and having been started by the poster with the friendly sounding name of Buddy; keeping friendly Buddy's name fresh in the minds of generations of posters.

I see, well it's not that way in Taoism. Enlightenment is emotional bliss (greater emotional bliss) and physical bliss is a natural reward for having lot's of nice chi energy, and mental bliss isn't possible until a few years after enlightenment when non thinking ability is established. Physical bliss, that's the reason that Lao Tzu is the only one smiling at the vinager pot, the other guys don't have enough to smile about.

I think I didn't explain myself well enough, I see my response as being the opposite of mental jerking off. I don't have anything against mental jerking off either, mind you, I do it all the time. Thinking can be fun and can even result in mental bliss, adding to possible physical bliss and emotional bliss. Which one to you, Lin, is enlightenment?

thumbs up image goes here

I changed my mind. Lin is right, you do need to cultivate wisdom in order to outlive The Fear. A somewhat delicate definition of the word Wisdom is required to make it work that way, it seems, doesn't it?

Can there be experience without thought of experience? Yes Can Now exist as pure being, perception, awareness, receptivity? Yes What would the quality of mind be like in this state? Pure awareness Is this the state we are often approaching in our meditation? This is the state you want to approach all the time including your day to day activities, the sitting is for the training of it. While I agree with Lin on his definition of wisdom and with most of his stated benefits i can't agree that it cures the problems that Adam asked about, the feelings of separation, alienation, disconnect, something missing, which I called The Fear. I included a hint about ithe solution in my first response =)

Yes the mind can become fully still and totally blank. The masters say that if you can sit for two hours with no body tension and no thoughts or focus (totally blank) then that is a good start. The act of focusing on anything causes some body and mental tension. This is not a trance like state, it is a state of hyper awareness, so the person is well aware of sounds in their surroundings and of their own stillness, they just do not direct their focus anywhere in particular, just let it float. If there is some commotion that causes one to focus on it momentarily and draws one out of full stillness then the timer starts over again, so it is good to be in a quiet place. Since thinking and awareness are mutually exclusive then awareness increases when thoughts (and focus) subside. My wife and I just rented a new Jackie Chan movie (her idea) and in the previews there was one movie titled "Who Am I?" More synchronicity for me around this 'who am I' BS. Also I had seen and posted a Jackie chan combat video clip the night before and wanted to know what movie it was from and I ended up renting it without knowing it was the one. Cool! I love it when this sh*t happens.

thanks Adam, I see how this question is used now, my student, when he came up with it, was actually serious about the question itself. I'm sure that people who use it for meditation also ponder it as an actual question too, at least while they aren't meditating. In any case, the Taoist way to keep the mind occupied, to arrive at the formless, uses techniques like 'listening to the force', or listening to the (subtle) breath. In any case, all of these types of tasks create a slight mental tension which prevents on from reaching full stillness and being totally blank.