Starjumper

No, and remember that when you see the hole you are about to fall into, you asked for it.

The site onLucid Dreaming looks interesting. That's very nice to hear about Buddhism once again, but the question was: "... is there any practices in the chinese (Taoist) tradition that one can do in their dreams? I know of some in the tibetan (Buddhist) and hindu tradition but of none in the chinese (Taoist) tradition. Thanks"

I recall there being a couple of people who cam on this forum with health/energy problems and said they had been doing the MCO for awhile, and I'm not here much, thank god, and so there must have been some others. This doesn't really say what I had in mind there. It's true that being a hard style it goes against the philosophy of the way, but it's more important than just an interesting philosophical idea, for as it is said in the TTC, that which goes against the Way does not last long. This not lasting long applies in several ways to how doing the MCO causes, if not health problems, at least health limitations and I'll give one example. When I did it I started at my belly and I got a lot of heat going before I started making the circuit. the cool thing was that it wasn't just a spot but a rather orb of heat that was moving. When it went up my back it felt like a big waterfall of heat covering almost half my back, this waterfall flow centered on the level I was progressing through and covered almost half my back. It wasn't a burning heat, it was a really nice heat, it felt so good it just kindles your heart. That's one reason i took an hour to make the circuit, because it felt so niiiice After I finished I though like wow man, this MCO is cool shit! In the back of my head though I though that after having that much fun I might have to pay the piper in some way, and sho nuff, it happened, The drop in energy that I experienced later was most noticeable and profound right afterward so I really noticed it. That night I was kind of tired but didn't really pay too much attention to it, the next day was when I realized I had really socked it to the ol' energy supply. Of course, having never done it before and having practiced the way of power for twenty years, I had a lot of chi built up so it was much more noticeable. People who do the MCO all the time, or who started with it wouldn't have a chance to build up a lot before running it down so it might not make much difference, but it will prevent achieving power I think. Therefore I assume that those that report feeling a lot of energy from doing the MCO are actually doing so mainly because they are sensitive rather than actually having a lot of energy, plus for those who are celibate, they're consuming their sexual energy. So that's one way that going against the Way by doing the MCO is detrimental to your health and longevity. As the sages say: "That which goes against the Way doesn't last long."

While going to sleep tell your spirit guides that you want to go to night school

I also agree with the basics of what you are saying ... but ... the quote about sages is to be taken with a grain of salt. While they will respond to a request for help their response may not be what the requester had in mind although it may well be for the best. For example, the top chi kung master in China only has one student so we may surmise that he had to reject 40 or 50 worth student applicants and 14,389 unworthy ones. My teacher also did not accept all applicants, and he was proud of being able to say no. Once I asked him something and he answered 'no' and you could tell he had practice getting the accent and facial expression just right and was enjoying the new art. Um yeah, well our resident fundamentalist was saying his way was superior to Taoism (and thereby belittling us) and that the TTC was unclear, so I was just trying to poke a sharp stick in his eye is all, carry on. That is of course true, but the TTC translations don't use the term 'always' do they? Also, a slap in the face will frequently get people's attention better than sweet talking them. It also separates the men from the boys to see who can take it, there's lots of 'boys' around here, let me tell ya. I am currently the student of a most powerful Kahuna, and he sometimes does the verbal slap in the face on me, and noticing how calm I am in response to it is a good self test for myself.

And that, even though Lao Tzu only said it for those that read between the lines, is why it is a good thing that the spiritually handicapped (fundamentalists) don't understand the Way, they need something else, and the world is full of those something elses. If the idea that there is something that excludes others (they exclude themselves automatically) is painful that's your problem, but it is something that makes Taoism like gold to those that can appreciate it. Kind words are not true True words are not kind.

I see you have a little cheering section that agrees with all this. I ask you, should everything be politically correct to the point of losing it's meaning, so that it doesn't hurt those with fragile egos? Is it good to dumb down every high system so it fits the lowest common denominator? A Taoist immortal did tell me that religion is for the spiritually handicapped (emotionally immature), he was exactly right, and he was a very good person! Lao Tzu did say that: Kind words are not true True words are not kind That's Taoism, it's for grown ups only, if you can't accept that then just admit Taoism is not for you and don't try to make it into something it isn't.

It's my understanding that many Chinese people still do that. Considering branding myself, in spite of what I've led some fundamentalists to believe I find some useful things in Buddhism, the non fundamentalist side of Buddhism. Concerning Confucianism, I don't know much about it but I consider it to be a fundamentalist version of Taoism. I feel that having a sincere heart is as good as rites and rituals, and better if the rites and rituals are performed in a casual way. So while I generally don't classify myself, since I have dedicated my life to studying and teaching a 100% Taoist tradition and vibrate extremely well with the philosophy, I think I should state my position in places like this where there are so few.

In Taoism they generally try to avoid black and white rules, and so a Taoist good explanation of virtue is: The skillful maneuvering through life situations while maintaining an inner calm.

It looks like you just did a bunch of insulting, and so goes the mirror. ... and no, you got it wrong again, I guess you missed the earlier explanation? I have plenty of heat in my belly, and as I said that's where it started. (Edit - my belly is normally the only place I feel heat, not in the upper areas, except for if I aim my hands at different areas of my body, then I can feel heat in those spots too) ... and this is why it's difficult to present useful information on this forum, those with thin skin attack the messenger and ignore the message. I hope the message did help some people.

Thanks, I appreciate the apology, but you didn't make me feel bad. I did the MCO according to the way Mantak Chia instructs it, are you saying that's wrong? I guess I didn't spell it out but I implied it, but my two channels already were open, and for a long time, many years, more than a decade, and a lot. Also I didn't try to make it hot and wide, the heat was there. I've got heat because I've got lotsa chi. I'm certainly not an expert on the MCO, but even for those who think the MCO is acceptable, they say don't miss spots, that's just common sense.

This is the kind of thing that you see when someone learns a bullshit 'system' from a flake. He really has no idea what nei kung is because he’s been misled for money; and he discredits my experience, saying my opinion is due to fear. It's true if you can say fear comes from experience, but there is no fear, because I'm not stupid enough to do it again. I’m a bit confused here, I like Michael and know he is advanced and has at least fairly good power yet once before I mentioned my opinion of MCO and I thought he said he taught it. I hope he doesn’t but ... I’m sorry, but I can’t share that here.

I revealed my chi kung style just two days ago in another thread, you don’t want me to wear it out do you? =) Yes it is open to others, I have room for another student, and if I decide teach an additional night I have room for an additional two; and yet it is so hard to find students with the right stuff. Well you said that you tried a chi kung system based on feeling and that it was wimpy and so I presented my system to show you that that isn’t always the case and that I speak from experience. It isn't exactly based on feeling, but makes good use of it, plus the feeling generally is goood. I don’t know, I just like to add my two cents worth here and there, I do it mainly for my own entertainment but I hope to help out a little bit too. Unfortunately I can’t give away much in the way of hard and fast practice information in a place like this. Well OK, that’s a tall order. It takes a lot of writing and I’m sometimes reluctant to put my heart into something like this in a place like this because some inexperienced people like Scotty et al.will try to negate it. My chi kung teacher was strongly against such things as the MCO or using intent to send energy on any route in your body, but the MCO is the biggest problem in regards to this due to past misleading information. What my teacher said about it is that doing the MCO is like teaching a dog to stay, and then when you want it to come to your aid it won’t because it’s staying. Having your energy primarily confined to one meridian means it will not automaticall go where it needs to for self healing and it is particularly limiting for use in martial arts applications. As Baguakid put it: “Your comments regarding MCO (self circulating) are inline with what I was taught as well. Just fill with qi and let it circulate naturally.” That’s right, just let it circulate naturally. To arbitrarily force the MCO with your mind for no particular reason other than someone told you is not necessarily what you might need for self healing or progress in a spiritual context either. In fact not only do you not need it, it takes away from what you do need. If you do good chi kung the MCO goes BY ITSELF when it needs to but it isn’t confined to it. To force the MCO is considered a hard style by those in the know, and hard styles are considered to go against Taoist philosophy. Of course some will say that Taoists do it and that is true. Just because some obscure sect aggrandizes it doesn't mean it's mainstream or good, but still it goes against the principles of the philosophy and ideal healing. Unfortunately it was made popular in the West by someone who made a lot of money by writing lots of books with pretty colored pictures and little information. Forcing it is also fake in a way. If you can get it to go naturally then forcing it seems arbitrary and cheap, doesn’t it? I suppose it’s more of a Buddhist way than Taoist since traditionally the Buddhists are not so concerned with body and they generally prefer more hard styles in everything, and their method then infected the more pure Taoist systems. I had someone visit me once from the Midwest. This was a young lady who had hurt herself with the MCO. We did my normal moving chi kung and everything was fine, then sat down to meditate. After less than a minute of sitting she made a loud sound that sounded like “HUT” and almost did a forward flip off her chair and onto the floor. I stopped the practice, I told her that the only chance she had was to do a good moving chi kung, like say tai chi, and not do the MCO, but she was the kind that would not exercise and so is lost. Once about a year ago I did the MCO in spite of my teacher having told me not to. I had cultivated the ability to create a lot of heat in my belly so I sent this in the circuit quite slowly around. It wasn’t just like a little spot of energy, it was like a big waterfall of strong heat flowing through the area of the spot I was at. I went very slowly in order to enjoy the intense heat bath and to not miss any spot, which is a common mistake that people make (skipping parts without knowing it) It took about a whole hour to do one circle. After that I noticed a big drop in my energy and feeling of wellbeing. I no longer could make the heat so easily and I felt remarkably more tired and weaker. That lasted for at least three months and a year later I can’t say I’m fully recovered from doing the MCO just once. of course I still have more energy in the tip of my little finger than most people have in their whole body but I made a stupid mistake, I ignored my teacher, and I learned something. Of course someone who hasn't experienced the difference and who has been doing this visualization all along will not be able to tell a difference and think could think they are fine. If someone is in good health and gets plenty of exercise they may not hurt themselves badly with the MCO, but if they are weak or sickly or don't exercise then watch out! In any case it appears it is a waste of time, at best, for those that are in good health - and very few people are in good health in our society due to toxins, etc. This is what I learned: all these people around here who are all gaga about abstaining from sex and then doing the MCO are just jacking off. They are doing a type of energy masturbation when the do the MCO and have their little thrills. The energy is wasted anyway, so i suggest they just masturbate physically, it’s more of a sure thing and they’re less likely to hurt themselves. Edit = a word was left out & speeling

Only trolls who think their passive aggressive violence is not an offensive violence.

I don't know which chapter it is but I'll paraphrase what it says: "If Bozo Breath could understand the great Way then the Way wouldn't be what it is" and this is an attachment of mine, but I think that's a damn good thing, thank GOD that Bozos can't comprehend the Way. Amen, pass the peas.

Read third paragraph of post #121 of this thread. I don't 'think' that, I know that, and Lao Tzu specifically pointed it out. Taoism may be odd for you but it's home for me, build a bridge.

Yeah, your Buddhas are so great it makes us want to puke. I have compassion for you too, but you're still a pain in the ass. You are on my shit list due to your evangelism.

You just did. Tao doesn't say anything, and if it did it wouldn't be agreeing with your dependent origination BS. It's not possible for the spiritually handicapped to comprehend the Way, and personally I think that's a very fine thing.

Notice how our Buddhist fundamentalist can not relate to Tao at it's deeper level and instead latches on to a poetic description of some of it's manifestations ... and then proceeds to dictate to us how he already knows all about it, as he looks downwards from on high.

In my chi kung people frequently remark on the high amounts of chi they feel radiating from me when I do chi kung with them, even to the point of some people in a big audience being amazed when I did a demo. My chi kung is high power because I learned it from one of the most powerful chi kung masters in the world, and it is ALL about cultivating highest levels of chi power. It is so rare, of course, I think it is safe to assume that no one here has experienced such things. The combination of a very powerful master in addition to him teaching YOU how to get THERE instead of just a few weenie exercises. Concerning doing the MCO, it shouldn't be done EVER. If someone does a good chi kung correctly it will start and go all by itself with no attention from the practitioner. The more a person tries to control the MCO the more they limit themselves (assuming they are doing it 'correctly' - it is never correct), and you can take that to the bank, to the extent that someone who is not in good condition could hurt themselves, and I've seen some of the damaged ones. I think they were permanently damaged. In order to be good at pulling in outside energy one must first develop good hand power AND good intent (which actually isn't so easy). I'm highly skeptical of such of such things as pulling in perfect DNA. Of more significance than gathering energy are the types of movements in which you generate energy. I will reiterate this: the more you control your MCO the more you limit yourself.

I disagree with everything you say here except for your last sentence. I do what I consider to be a high power chi kung and it is entirely based on feeling the energy. Most students feel a lot of energy right from the beginning and it just keeps getting stronger after that. When chi is going through blockages it feels rougher, but once blockages are dissolved chi can still be felt. It is a finer and subtler vibration but it can become strong with time, and this is the type of energy that feels more blissful. I understand you are a student of KAP, and it appears to be wimpy chi kung, perhaps you are only a long distance student of Santiago's but someone just posted and then deleted the long list of his TP, I mean certificates, and my reaction to someone so young having so many 'certificates' in unrelated systems was ... um ... In any case, I sincerely recommend that you stop doing the MCO before you hurt yourself.

Evidently you haven't seen any IMA that specialize in applications. Yes they do, but us beginners don't. Concerning whether or not the neck break would work: once you're in position all you need to do is straighten your legs and the neck will break, however if you stand around with your finger in your nose the grapler could wiggle out of it. which they will, of course do, and proclaim themselves superior. I've seen such things many times where some of the baddest guys in MMA try to hit or take down my teacher. It's hard to convince someone with testosterone flowing out their ears that they are actually 'dead' until they get their ass handed to them twenty times in a row. And then of course, once you convince that guy then you have to convince all his buddies, who will just think he's a pussy and they are of course better than him. Sometimes the aggressive musclebound feller does the punch and the IMA master stops him for a microsecond with a deadly move (but doesn't follow through) so then the feller does his second move and proclaims himself victor, not knowing he's already dead. Then he announces to my teacher that he won and my teacher says yes he did. This happened a LOT. I mean, it's actually better to have your enemies underestimate you, don't you think. Applications experts in Chinese IMA are very rare, your best bet is to look at Systema. Another thing, since IMA isn't for the ring but for dirty street fighting and military situations the 'opponents' are usually quite different. It's not likely that someone who is a king of the ring will attack you on the street compared to normal low lifes. Some people actually go trolling for muggers

Thank you for defecating once again on our Taoist forum in a thread about Taoism.

Buddhas blabs are most elaborate because Buddha was the biggest blabbermouth to ever have an enlightenment experience, but it is not clear! It is nauseatingly repetitive, like you, and it contains untruths, like you. In fact what Lao Tzu had to say has much more depth and it is quite clear to those who are more advanced than Buddhists such as yourself. Concerning being more advanced, which our Buddhist ______ insists is his way, I insist my way is superior, and for evidence I have a statement from a mentor of mine, a Taoist immortal, who said that religion is for the spiritually handicapped, but Taoism is for those who only need an occasional reminder. So Buddhism ---> spiritually handicapped, escape from reality, all life is suffering and to be avoided and escaped, a suicidal philosophy. Taoism ---> for grownups only, take the good with the bad, enjoy the mystery, bliss and enlightenment, you may escape rebirth if you get that far, but can still interact with and enjoy life.

Buddhism is for people who can't handle reality.