Taoist Wisdom, or Power v Insight

[forestofsouls]

All,

 

A little while ago I posted an interview with Amrit Desai, a "fallen" guru who had immense shaktipat abilities, but had an affair with a student, mislead his whole congregation by emphasizing celibacy, and breaking his his own vows of celibacy. He seemed to learn a lot from his experience. He made explicit what I've thought implicitly--- that gaining power, chi, or shakti, does not necessarily give one wisdom.

 

When I read modern Taoist teachings, they seem to focus on building and refining chi. When I read ancient Taoists, they seem focused on wisdom. It is almost as though there are two pillars in Taoism: energy building and wisdom building. The latter seems to be largely ignored in modern times.

 

Personally, I get my wisdom practice from Buddhism, through insight or mindfulness practices. Lately, I've been learning energy practices from Santiago, which seems to add fuel to insight. It seems to me that these are different, but complimentary practices.

 

What are some Taoist (or other) wisdom practices? Are they important?

[NeutralWire]

The point you raise is absolutely crucial in my opinion.

 

In the system I'm using, the Hermetic system of Franz Bardon, there is no energy work at all until there is complete self-knowledge and elemental balance in the personality. Since I began practicing, I have felt this to be the the only real way to progress -- for myself, anyhow. For me it's like night and day.

 

I was actually trying to explain this very thing to Lino on his personal thread here. Lino has had exactly this problem, of too much energy without self-knowledge, and it's something I used to have to deal with as well. You can deal with it, but I learned in a fairly hard manner that I must know myself before I work with any energies of that kind.

 

At the risk of being a little controversial I want to touch on something about this that dovetails with the practice of Nan Huai-Chin which is outlined in his book 'Tao and Longevity'. That practice, although culturally very different, is actually rather similar to Bardon's.

 

In Nan's practice there comes a point when astral senses are developed. He says something very interesting -- that not everyone will develop every astral sense. (Some develop only two, some only one.)

 

In Bardon's system this is not allowed and I feel it is vitally important to understand why. These astral senses are linked to the elements. (In the Hermetic elemental systems, fire=sight, air=hearing, etc.) If a person reaches the stage of developing astral senses -- equivalent to Bardon step VII -- but does not develop all of those senses, it is a sign that elemental balance in the personality has not been achieved.

 

But there's no comprehensive system in Nan's book for developing the self-knowledge needed to balance the elements. A person who continues on to 'enlightenment' without that balance is not complete and their enlightenment will not be complete either.

 

In that 'Tao and Longevity' book I was actually very surprised to see that certain movements of chi were mentioned as ones that could cause problems in some people, eg. chi passing through the heart area -- but that these problems were never seen as linked to the personality. (In other words, it was never said that the way you live or use your heart energy is the reason for the difficulty the chi is having in passing through the heart area.)

 

Self-knowledge prevents such problems from occurring. All 'blocked chi' is blocked life-story which needs to be addressed, and I believe, it's far better that it be addressed in a fairly complete manner, so that the life flows well, before something like 'enlightenment' is contemplated.

 

I would love to know other systems apart from Bardon's that use self knowledge to obtain elemental balance specifically, because since beginning to work that way I know that 'energy problems' I once had have gradually been removed, without my needing to do any 'energy work'.

 

I believe the 'heilkunst' system studied by Karen has something of the kind in it. Forestofsouls has mentioned that he uses a Buddhist system for this and I would love to know more about that. This is one of those subjects that is not touched on as often as it could be, for me.

 

I would also like to know whether people believe that the 'fusion' practice of the Healing Tao is sufficient to make that kind of elemental balance. My personal belief is that the systems which come from a purely monastic or hermitlike background sometimes have problems developing an elemental balance suitable for a human being who has a regular social life.

 

Please understand I'm speaking with complete candour! Mine are not the only problems I've experienced from people going too far into energy (or other things) too fast. I've frequently been there when some bad energy bubbles burst, and it's not a pretty sight. In picking up the pieces it's not unnatural for me to wonder why the safeguard of 'know thyself' isn't insisted upon in more of the systems that are being given out these days, especially since the results of successfully pursuing self-knowledge are so satisfying.

 

All best wishes,

 

~NeutralWire~

[thelerner]

The more I study the more essentials have popped up. Starting with a program like Healing Tao, it has lots of stuff, energy practices, but its easy to leave out stillness, just sitting. I think with an actual teacher you'd be reminded to include it as a base practice, but within the norm of short seminars, books and videos it gets too little emphasis, when it is a base practice. Energy arts whether moving or internal compliment stillness, but reaching emptiness is essential.

 

Stillness and energy, is that all I need, not by a long shot. I enjoy Kunlun, a practice where you get out of your way, hit 'the position' and let your body do what it wants, no particular thought, just letting the body and energy move without you. I find that to be a neccessary leg of practice, for me.

 

I've said a selfish bastard who begins energy practice can be become a talented bastard with a lot of energy . Dharma talks, particularly those that put you and your mind in there proper place are essential. There are some good ones on the net, even better to be involved in a live sangha group. Another essential leg.

 

If these are the base and legs of practice, then space around them is even greater. That is everyday life. How we sit, eat, work think.

 

My two cents. The stool of practice wobbles less, but I still wobble.

 

 

Michael

[phore]

for wisdom

Contemplating the taichi symbol can develop some insight, If you know the principles behind it.

 

for self knowledge I use visualization practices like tamos cave.

getting in touch with the stuff inside of you

 

D&D is fun for an exercise in creativity. Thinking outside of the box.

 

I mainly use energy work. Self knowledge, wisdom, and creativity all flow out of that naturally. I cant really see how you can cultivate one without simultaneously cultivating the others. Maybe im doing it wrong.

 

[forestofsouls]

The Buddhist system I use is based primarily on the Theravadin practice of mindfulness. I also see a similar path in Zen, but not as expressly laid out.

 

The practice is simple, and consists of 3 main parts:

 

1. Practice of virtue, following the five precepts.

2. Practice of samadhi, which is developing concentration.

3. Practice of insight/wisdom, which consists of applying concentration to the subjective and objective world. In the Buddhist paradigm, this especially applies to the three universals characteristics of impermanence, dukkha (non-satisfaction), and non-self. This insight tends to arise naturally, without need for large amounts of theory and analysis.

 

Practiced consistently and over time, this practice yields a wealth of knowledge. You gain actual, experiential knowledge of yourself, the world, and how the two inter-relate. You learn how the mind, feelings, and body works. You develop sensory clarity, equanimity, and ultimately, an ability to transcend the chaos of the world. You learn about impermanence, dukkha, and non-self through direct experiential knowledge. Personally, I've been able to catch glimpses of the Void.

 

The practice also transformed me from a drinking, smoking, lonely, manic-depressive personality to a health-conscious, much calmer and happier family man.

 

Forestofsouls has mentioned that he uses a Buddhist system for this and I would love to know more about that. This is one of those subjects that is not touched on as often as it could be, for me.

[goldisheavy]

What are some Taoist (or other) wisdom practices? Are they important?

 

The most important wisdom practice by far is contemplation. The reason for this is that our minds are structured by beliefs, most of which are so deep, that they are implicit and unconscious. This structure is important, because if you understand it, you will also understand how to avoid unnecessary pain, and you will also know how to NOT avoid certain pain that you understand to be essential to face head on, and at the ultimate level of insight, you will learn how to restructure your mind completely to your own liking. That means you will become the lord of your core beliefs, instead of getting these installed into you by other people such as friends, relatives, peers, authorities and Gurus. This means you will become responsible for what you believe, and you won't be able to blame others for your own inconsistent and poorly structured core beliefs.

 

Meditation cannot even begin to touch this, because meditation is a passive practice, whereas contemplation is active. And why is this important?

 

It's important because perception is not a purely passive phenomenon. We "perceive" phenomena into existence via our beliefs! So seeing is not just noticing, but it's also envisioning! It's a creative and a participatory act. You make it so by seeing. So meditation is useful and important, but because it is passive it fails to give you the full picture. Mostly meditation deepens and confirms what you already believe. But what meditation doesn't give you is an idea that if you change your beliefs and meditate again, your entire meditation experience will be drastically different.

 

For example, most people here believe in the concept of energy as something inherently real. So when they meditate, guess what? They notice energy! Of course! The mind tends to confirm its beliefs in meditation. If you continue to meditate, you can refine that perception -- you can notice more details, more nuances, you can gain influence over this energy and discover connections between this energy and other phenomena and so on. But what you will never get is an ability to transcend energy altogether. Why not? That's because your meditation is predicated on energy, isn't it? For most people that's a true statement. For those people there is no way, no chance, no opportunity to experience anything else in meditation.

 

Contemplation is a process that allows you to put anything to a deep questioning process. If you ask yourself contemplatively, what is energy? You might discover it's not what you thought it was. Then if you meditate subsequently to that realization, you may get a totally different experience. You may perceive something that's energy-less or is beyond energy altogether. And then you may understand -- neither energy perception nor energy-less perception is THE truth, but just "a truth". Then you may ask yourself a question like this, "If beliefs create different types of experiences, are some beliefs better than others?" Then you are well on your way toward being responsible for your own beliefs. Then instead of reading what to believe from this or that Guru, you will have the tools to inspect and test and select your own beliefs.

 

Neither energy nor meditation cannot give you that degree of freedom, because both meditation and energy work are mechanistic processes where you know in advance what you expect to happen. In Buddhism all the jhanas are explained. You know what to expect. You can go to a teacher in Buddhism and this teacher will then "confirm" whether you had a jhana or not, because they have certain expectations for them. This means jhanas are just conventional, therefore mundane, forms of mind, and are not spiritual in the least. The only way to transcend convention is to rely on your own original unborn uncreated wisdom. This reliance is in no way mechanistic. It cannot be explained in terms of steps to follow. I cannot tell you what to expect from the practice of contemplation. I cannot certify your results either, and no one else can.