Discovering Internal Principles Through Embodied Practice

[ChiDragon]

14 hours ago, FluffyGuardian said:

But here's the problem. An "essence" is a distillation of something. They are constantly in pursuit of subtracting their own art.
For example, Taijiquan is known for Ba Jin: Peng, Lu, Ji, An, Tsai, Lie, Zhao, Kao.

 

But in today's Taijiquan community, people seem to realize that Peng is "fundamental" whereas the remaining 7 are not. One is not literally using all 8 of those Jins at the same time, but Peng is always present and is the mother of all other jins. 

 

So, due to their mindset, they essentially tossed the other 7 out the window. 
Very often, they define Taiji as "Peng and Song"; they don't care about other jins anymore. The last four hardly ever gets mentioned.

 

When I say that they believe principles lead to or are the "methodology", one example of that is that they might believe if they ONLY practice Peng and Song, they will magically be experts in the remaining 7 Jins. 

The ba jin(八勁) is not coming out of nowhere. The reason they were called ba jin was for a reason. The ba jin are the 8 methods to fajin(發勁) at their most efficient and effectively. They were particularly depicted from the whole set of Taiji movements. They are the best methods to exert the body strength that are called jin. It is not anyone can executed such force. It requires long diligent practice to condition the body to do so. Thus only masters at highest level and at best to be performed such methods. 

It happens to be that peng appears in most of the 8 methods. The other 7 are not ignored. It is only a matter of gesture in performing the fajin methods.

Edited 10 hours ago by ChiDragon

[TaiChiGringo]

17 hours ago, FluffyGuardian said:

 

I agree with you that methodology leads to principle, but.... in the Tai Chi community, by and large, people believe the opposite. 

They believe that principle leads to methodology, or... they believe principles ARE the methodology.

 

And that's why I wrote methodology beats principles because... in my experience, people who talk about principles often lack methodology or believe the principles is the "how" part. They view Tai Chi as nothing more than a checklist. 

 

They are obsessed with finding the "essence" of the art. A principle, by definition, is a fundamental truth/proposition that serves as the foundation for a system of belief or behavior or for a chain of reasoning." 

But here's the problem. An "essence" is a distillation of something. They are constantly in pursuit of subtracting their own art.

For example, Taijiquan is known for Ba Jin: Peng, Lu, Ji, An, Tsai, Lie, Zhao, Kao.

But in today's Taijiquan community, people seem to realize that Peng is "fundamental" whereas the remaining 7 are not. One is not literally using all 8 of those Jins at the same time, but Peng is always present and is the mother of all other jins. 

So, due to their mindset, they essentially tossed the other 7 out the window. 

Very often, they define Taiji as "Peng and Song"; they don't care about other jins anymore. The last four hardly ever gets mentioned.

When I say that they believe principles lead to or are the "methodology", one example of that is that they might believe if they ONLY practice Peng and Song, they will magically be experts in the remaining 7 Jins. 

There seems to be a trend here.....

 

 

I think I broadly agree with your diagnosis of the problem, but I’d frame the Peng / Song part differently.

 

Peng is indeed one of the jins, but it’s also the structural condition that makes all jin possible. In that sense, Taijiquan can be thought of as Peng Jin Quan (Wang Haijun says this, not my line). And Song is foundational to Peng.

 

So yes, you can distill Taiji down to Peng and Song, or even ultimately just Peng, but only if Peng is understood as a living, trained structural state, not a conceptual checkbox. The problem isn’t distillation per se. The problem is distillation without embodiment.

 

What you’re pointing at with “methodology beats principles” is spot on:

many people treat principles as if they were instructions, rather than outcomes of a long developmental process. They think “understand Peng” replaces building Peng. In my experience, the other jins aren’t discarded because they’re unimportant, they disappear because without sufficient Peng, they can’t actually be expressed. Tsai, Lie, Zhou, Kao aren’t separate techniques you “add on”; they’re directional expressions of Peng under pressure, timing, and intent.

 

So I’d say:

Methodology creates the container

The container allows Peng to emerge

Peng then differentiates naturally into the other jins

 

Where things go wrong is when people try to shortcut that process by collapsing everything into ever-more abstract language, instead of doing the long, unglamorous work of forging the body. In that sense, I don’t disagree with you, I just don’t think the issue is “too much Peng/Song”, but too little actual Peng being trained.

 

There's a good article about the foundational principles (that must be forged through method!) by Wang Haijun:

https://taiji-forum.com/tai-chi-taiji/basics/5-most-important-beginner-s-skills/

 

Relevant quote to this topic:

"Chen Fake taught that there are two types of peng jin. The first is the fundamental skill or strength of taijiquan. The second is one of the eight commonly recognized taijiquan jins, (peng, lu, ji, an, cai, lieh, zhou & kao.) The first type of peng is the core element that is the foundation of these eight commonly recognized skills. It is perhaps best considered in English as a separate term from the peng that is listed as one of these eight skills. All eight jins have their basis in peng that is the fundamental skill."

Edited 7 hours ago by TaiChiGringo

[TaiChiGringo]

On 05/01/2026 at 2:18 AM, ChiDragon said:

There are many members had mentioned having a good teacher is a must. However, a good teacher can guide the student to do all the correct postures. At that instance, the student should discover something about the instruction. Otherwise, if the student just said "ok I got it" with no discovery, then it is a different story. If the student got it without practicing diligently, then there will be no discovery and remain in the non progressive stage. 

 

Yes I absolutely agree. In Tai Chi, we are totally dependent on a good teacher to guide alignment, structure, and help us get a 'taste' of the feeling. But at the same time, the practice is deeply interoceptive, so real development ultimately depends on ourselves. Without diligent, self-directed exploration, the guidance remains external, and the body cannot register the subtle sensations that drive more advanced progress. True discovery happens when the nervous system and fascia are actively engaged and sensing the unfolding patterns, not just when instructions are repeated or acknowledged intellectually.

[TaiChiGringo]

6 hours ago, SodaChanh said:

 

Of course, they are people, so they are per definition nuts 😁

 

The opposite is happening in Buddhism where they add and add methods, descriptions etc etc all the time so they lost the essence and groundedness of truth which was simple back in the days. 

 

Maybe Truth should be learned from a simple farmer and Taijiquan only learned from veteran bad ass fighter. 

 

Haha, agreed

Generally simplicity carries more truth than endless layers of method and theory. And for me in my Taiji journey, the practice feels simpler and simpler the further I go. So in my understanding, the purpose of the methods isn’t complexity for its own sake, but to create the framework that allows one to discover that simplicity firsthand.

[ChiDragon]

1 hour ago, TaiChiGringo said:

Without diligent, self-directed exploration, the guidance remains external, and the body cannot register the subtle sensations that drive more advanced progress. True discovery happens when the nervous system and fascia are actively engaged and sensing the unfolding patterns, not just when instructions are repeated or acknowledged intellectually.

 

The nervous system and fascia are actively engaged and sensing the unfolding patterns. At this point, you have gone into the next higher level of fajin(發勁), It is to sense someone's internal strength by Ting Jin(听勁). I think it's about time having someone leading us into the most subtle subject in Taiji. I think you are knowledgeable about the subject. Would you like to have the pleasure to go into that? Thanks!

Edited 4 hours ago by ChiDragon

[TaiChiGringo]

3 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

 

The nervous system and fascia are actively engaged and sensing the unfolding patterns. At this point, you have gone into the next higher level of fajin(發勁), It is to sense someone's internal strength by Ting Jin(听勁). I think it's about time having someone leading us into the most subtle subject in Taiji. I think you are knowledgeable about the subject. Would you like to have the pleasure to go into that? Thanks!

 

Yes certainly, I feel I have a solid understanding of Ting Jin and (Chen-style) Fajin so happy to discuss with you