Atomic body of Trekcho (Dzogchen)

[Vajra Mind]

I have read that Trekcho practice (Dzogchen) can lead to atomic body. 

 

I am wondering if atomic body has been reported among any westerner practitioner up to this day?

 

Thanks

 

 

 

 

[Vajra Mind]

What about any Tibetan Dzogchen monk living Westren countries, were there any atomic body manifestation reported?  

 

Thanks

 

[tao.te.kat]

Hello Vajra mind, you can find some info trying with "rainbow body".

 

But I'm not aware of any case here in Europe or America

[tao.te.kat]

A bit more of info:

 

Investigating the Rainbow Body - Lions Roar

[Vajra Mind]

Hi tao.te.kat

 

Thank you for your reply and link to the interesting article. 

 

In my earlier post, I have intentionally avoided the terms "rainbow body" and "Thogal". I am aware that rainbow body is attained from Thogal practice of Dzogchen. Thogal is done after a practitioner has stabilized his Treckcho Practice. It is rare phenomena and meant for the best of the best practitioners. Meanwhile realization in Treckcho is associated with Atomic body. 

 

My question is pertaining to Trekcho which is the main practice done by all Dzogchen practitioners. the reason I am asking is that Dzogchen initiation is dependent on Direct Introduction of Rigpa from master to student.  

 

Given the fact that there are perhaps hundreds if not thousands of dzogchen westren partitioners including lamas and teachers with no reported Atomic body leads me to speculate the followings:

 

1. There is No realized master. Therefore can't appropriately introduce student to Rigpa. 

2. Students lack receptive faculty. There is a missing practice that need to be done to make students receptive. 

3. Both of the above.

4. There is no such thing as Atomic body or that Atomic body is also related to Thogal not to Treckcho. 

 

In any case, the matter is worth investigating further, it will be of great help to current Dzogchen practitioners and future students. 

  

[tao.te.kat]

Never heard before, I found very few referencs to that body. 

 

 Atomic body is achieved through trekcho, the body dissolves into atoms and disappears. Rainbow body is achieved through thogal. You can read more about it in "The Practice Of Dzogchen" pages 82-85 (and before that too). There however atomic body is called rainbow body and rainbow body is called light body.

 

It's from Dharmawheel forum.

 

About your points

 

1. You can be introduced to rigpa by a master not fully enlightened. Recognizing rigpa is just the begining. 

2. I dont know

4. It seems it's very rare even in Dzogchen. I found veeery few references... Noy only rare to happen, but it seems it's not widely tak about. Rainbow body gets a lot of atenttion but not atomic body

 

Also in the same thread:

 

Ordinary people cannot perceive rainbow body.

It is called "rainbow body" because the five elements revert to their original nature as the five wisdom lights. But this light is not photons -- it is called "light" but it is not physical light.

 

Rainbow Body and Subtle Atomic Body

In general, in traditions like the Sakyapa and other traditions, sometime people say, “Oh this is a rainbow body, that is a rainbow body.” Even some practitioners may have their physical bodies disappear and they consider this a rainbow body. But that is not a rainbow body.

In the Dzogchen Teaching this is called lü dultren du tengpa (lus rdul phran du dengs pa). That means the physical body is entered into dultren, very, very, very tiny atoms, and we cannot see it. Someone is at a high level of the practice and they can reach the state of the dharmakaya.

That is the reason it is becoming that kind of lü dultren du tengpa and rainbow means it is active, something concrete manifests.

You see there is a painting of the Guru Padmasambhava and at the center of the Guru Padmasambhava there is a small thigle. From this thigle the lights of five colors come out, bigger and bigger, until the dimension of the Guru Padmasambhava has become filled with this light. Most people like this thanka, or painting, very much. This painting was originally painted by someone in the Sakyapa tradition. But whoever painted this has no knowledge of the rainbow body. The rainbow body isn’t like that. The rainbow body means our physical body, for example, our nose, our face, our front, everything is integrated with the five elements.

Some people may have the capacity to see someone who has attained the rainbow body. The nature of our bodies, when they are truly integrated with the five colors or five elements in the rainbow body, appear in just the same way for these people as our bodies would appear in the physical or relative dimension. For example, the rainbow body of Guru Padmasambhava would appear to someone with sufficient capacity just as he is, and without his dimension being filled the five colors. So it is very important you should know that.

Nobody knows if some one of you will realize the rainbow body. When the rainbow body manifests, only the hair and nails remain. Everything else disappears. ... So why then do the hair and nails remain? It is because these are the two aspects of our impure physical body. Hair is always growing. We are cutting it again and again, and still it is always growing. The impure aspect of our physical body is like that. It is the same with the finger and toenails. So this is the symbol of the impure.

This is very important to understand. If you realize the rainbow body then you have no problems! Ok, now we finish and dedicate merits.

Chögyal Namkhai Norbu

Edited November 20, 2023 by tao.te.kat

[tao.te.kat]

The book commented ( "The Practice Of Dzogchen" ): 

 

the-practice-of-dzogchen.pdf (wordpress.com)

 

Pages 82 to 85

[Vajra Mind]

Thanks for the link. 

 

Yes, pages from 82 to 85 in "The Practice of Dzogchen" by Longchenpa associate Atomic body to Trekcho practice. 

 

I have another two sources from Bonpo Dzogchen:

 

Page 129 from "Bonpo Dzogchen Teaching" by Lopon Tenzin Namdak

"Through the practice of Theckchod alone it is possible to realize the body of atoms (rdul lus) where the material body dissolves into the atoms. (rdul) of its constituent elements, and then these disappear into space leaving nothing visible behind. However, there is still some substances (albeit atoms) remaining , although this is invisible to the eye. But this is not what is meant by the Rainbow Body"

 

Page 77 from "Heart Drops of Dharmakaya" by Shardza Tashi Gyaltsen

"In Trekcho the body cannot become the light body—it can only be made to disappear to the level of the atoms. There are many systems to make the physical body disappear, such as the temporary illusory body. Even in the practice of shamata the physical body can disappear. But they are not true or final. Togel, however, completely transforms the physical body into pure light.

If you don't achieve the rainbow body then you do not achieve the final body. Likewise, if you do not achieve the Great Rainbow Body you have not achieved the final Buddhahood. In Togel all your physical body and the objects that you share go into the rainbow body" 

 

 

 

 

 

[Vajra Mind]

5 hours ago, tao.te.kat said:

1. You can be introduced to rigpa by a master not fully enlightened

 

Ammm. I honestly dont know, but I have always thought of this as blind leading the blind. Because if a non realized master can introduce you to Rigpa, then I assume so does books. I could be wrong.  

[steve]

32 minutes ago, Vajra Mind said:

 

Ammm. I honestly dont know, but I have always thought of this as blind leading the blind. Because if a non realized master can introduce you to Rigpa, then I assume so does books. I could be wrong.  

 

Anything and anyone has the potential to introduce you to rigpa but no one, not even a Buddha, can give it to you. Each of us has to realize, ourselves. The value of a realized master is that they are more skillful and experienced at guiding people, different people need different approaches, and most importantly they can help to confirm or correct your own experience. 

[tao.te.kat]

13 hours ago, Vajra Mind said:

 

Ammm. I honestly dont know, but I have always thought of this as blind leading the blind. Because if a non realized master can introduce you to Rigpa, then I assume so does books. I could be wrong.  

 

No, the masters know perfectly rigpa. They are not blind.

 

There's a long road from recognizing rigpa to buddhahood, you seem to think they're the same point...

 

So you have:

 

- People before the path of seeing -> Not rigpa recognized. Blind

- People after completing the path of seeing, they're at the path of meditation -> Rigpa recognized, not Buddha at all. Some of them are masters. They're Aryas.

- Buddhas after completing the path of meditation, at the path of no-more-learning -> Buddhahood realized. They can get rainbow body (or not)

 

Look for the five paths tibetan system.

 

So no blind is leading blind. But dont expect your master to be a Buddha. Maybe s/he is not.

 

But he is not blind.

Edited November 21, 2023 by tao.te.kat

[Vajra Mind]

20 hours ago, steve said:

 

Anything and anyone has the potential to introduce you to rigpa but no one, not even a Buddha, can give it to you. Each of us has to realize, ourselves. The value of a realized master is that they are more skillful and experienced at guiding people, different people need different approaches, and most importantly they can help to confirm or correct your own experience. 

 

Hi steve, thank you for your reply.

I like to think in your way but as far as I know Dzogchen scholars/masters insists that it must be a lineage holder master who can point out Rigpa to you since this example gnosis/wisdom is special feature of Dzogchen. Once recognized you job is to relax in that state 24/7. Therefore, I assume a lineage master who has realized his natural state is a must. 

[tao.te.kat]

>is special feature of Dzogchen

 

Probably they say that, but as you can imagine, there's no special part of the mind that only Dzogchenpas have. This will make no sense. So it's really an universal feature. Remember that's not a creation but a recognition, all of us have it. Now.

 

In fact the recognition is the same in Essence Mahamudra (said by the own tibetan masters, not me).

 

So probably rigpa is the same recognition of the nature of mind seen in Zen (Kensho) and for sure is the same as in Essence Mahamudra. The changes are in the way they explain it and the practices of every lineage.

 

But you can only be sure of your own realization if a lineage master is at hand to confirm it (be it Zen, Mahamudra or Dzogchen).

 

The introduction is a nice effort to make you recognize it using the situation and the capacities of the master. Some Dzogchenpas have the realization outside the introduction, later, and there's no problem at all.

 

[Vajra Mind]

7 hours ago, tao.te.kat said:

There's a long road from recognizing rigpa to buddhahood, you seem to think they're the same point...

 

Indeed. Rigpa is an example gnosis/wisdom, after recognizing it through direct introduction by a Dzogchen lineage holder realized master, practitioner need to relax in that state 24/7, this is the practice of Treckcho. 

 

That is why I assume a realized master should also realize the atomic body eventually at the end of his/her life if he/she has recognized Rigpa and integrate that state in his/her daily life over many years. Otherwise if he/she is incompetent in that state how can he/she introduce it to his/her students?! I doubt it but again I am just speculating. 

 

7 hours ago, tao.te.kat said:

So you have:

 

- People before the path of seeing -> Not rigpa recognized. Blind

- People after completing the path of seeing, they're at the path of meditation -> Rigpa recognized, not Buddha at all. Some of them are masters. They're Aryas.

- Buddhas after completing the path of meditation, at the path of no-more-learning -> Buddhahood realized. They can get rainbow body (or not)

 

Look for the five paths tibetan system.

 

I dont think it is healthy to compare the Bodhisattvas stages/paths to Dzogchen. 

Path of seeing is realizing emptiness not Rigpa. Rigpa is special feature of Dzogchen. Bodhisattvas on the path of seeing are not necessarily Dzogchen practitioners. Some scholars equate third vision of Thogal to the path of seeing, but Treckcho progression is not comparable Bodhisattvas stages. 

[tao.te.kat]

>That is why I assume a realized master should also realize the atomic body eventually at the end of his/her life

 

Dzogchen doesnt affirm that. But usually they say that you can reach Nirvana at the bardo (after death) if you realized rigpa while living

 

>I dont think it is healthy to compare the Bodhisattvas stages/paths to Dzogchen.

 

Dzogchenpas are bodhisatvas, they follow the bhumi stages, even some Nyingma tertons "updated" the model to 13 or 16 bhumis and even more stages...

 

https://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Bhumi

 

> Path of seeing is realizing emptiness not Rigpa.

 

From here: http://studybuddhism.com/en/tibetan-buddhism/tantra/mahamudra-dzogchen/what-is-dzogchen

 

 

This is rigpa in its aspect of being the “open space” or “cognitive sphere” that allows for the arising of appearances and the cognizing of them, with the latter more prominent. When we recognize and stay focused with this, we attain break-through, a seeing path of mind (path of seeing), the third of the five pathway minds on the way to enlightenment. 

 

==

Rigpa is the state of presence recognizing the ground of mind as emptiness

 

Edited November 21, 2023 by tao.te.kat

[Vajra Mind]

I see.

Thank you tao.te.kat for your time and efforts.

I am going to contemplate on what you have mentioned. 

[idiot_stimpy]

Quote

YESHE LAMA / 65

 

In togal by emphasizing the key points, the difference is that the wisdom avenue opens and the nature of phenomena is witnessed through radiance. With trekchd, one searches for the clarity of having abandoned the confused projections of the impure avenues of the six sense organs. The difference is that, with togal, since the entranceway of pure clear light is opened through the wisdom wind, the unimpeded sense organs are able to utilize the appearance of the indivisibility of space and wisdom as the four luminosities.

 

With trckcho, because one is dependent upon the coarse winds and channels, deviations and hindrances breed. [67] Once that occurs, due to the strength of the elements, there will be dependency upon age. Here [with togal], since coarseness is the object to abandon, at the moment of binding through the key point of the three states of motionlessness, one takes the path of the genuine wisdom of winds and channels free from the effort of fixating. Therefore, the difference is that the body is liberated as clear light by exhausting all coarseness.

 

With trckcho, if the luminosities do not achieve their full extent, it is still possible for liberation from the physical body to occur. However, even though the body does dissolve into particles, it is impossible to dissolve into clear light. Without dissolution into clear light, the temporary karmic body, [68] the contaminated sense constituents, and so forth cannot reach the ultimate ground. One who is unable to attain the vajra body of the great transference endowed with great waves of clairvoyance, the eye of prajna, and miraculous powers is incapable of accomplishing great waves of benefit for the welfare of others. Observe the difference between the Lord of All Victors, Padmasambhava, and the mahasiddhas of India and Tibet.

 

 

https://archive.org/stream/The_Yeshe_Lama/Yeshe-Lama -Vidyadhara-Jigmed-Lingpa_djvu.txt

 

Quote

Those having superior faculties are liberated as a great transference embodiment, extending infinitely into the all-pervasive dharmakaya, like water merging with water, or space merging with space. Those having medium faculties attain buddhahood as a great rainbow body, like a rainbow vanishing into the sky. When the ground clear light arises, for those having inferior faculties the colors of the rainbow spread forth from the absolute nature, and their material bodies decrease in size until finally they vanish as rainbow bodies, leaving not even a trace of their aggregates behind. That is called the small rainbow body. When the ground clear light arises, the material bodies of some people decrease in size for up to seven days, then finally only the residue of their hair and nails is left behind. The dissolution of the body into minute particles is called the small transference. For those of superior faculties this dissolution of the body into minute particles may occur even during the Breakthrough.

 

Dzogchen: Thodgal (Leap-Over) Instructions by Dudjom Lingpa

 

https://www.theopendoorway.org/dzogchen-thodgal

 

@Vajra Mind

Edited February 5 by idiot_stimpy