Who has reached Jhana?

[X2471990]

Ehhhhh hmmm yes and no. But I don't believe if many people meet a truly enlightened person they would even know it. Enlightenment in Buddhism is turning karma into wisdom. You very well may need to reach Jhana to do that. That is why I gave you instructions on how to.

[X2471990]

It may be necessary for you to reach Jhana personaly. But understand the historical Buddha did abandon this practice. The Theravada sect may disagree but lam not one to argue these matters it's pointless bottom line is if you need to experience Jhana then by all means that is a nescescery experience you need to have and go for it

[taoguy]

10 minutes ago, X2471990 said:

It may be necessary for you to reach Jhana personaly. But understand the historical Buddha did abandon this practice. The Theravada sect may disagree but lam not one to argue these matters it's pointless bottom line is if you need to experience Jhana then by all means that is a nescescery experience you need to have and go for it

 

15 minutes ago, X2471990 said:

Ehhhhh hmmm yes and no. But I don't believe if many people meet a truly enlightened person they would even know it. Enlightenment in Buddhism is turning karma into wisdom. You very well may need to reach Jhana to do that. That is why I gave you instructions on how to.

 

Wrt to your previous post on depression, I indeed experienced depression for a total of 2 to 3 years after accidentally-meditating as a child (without knowing breath meditation at all). I suppose that was the first dark night. Another one I had was an intense energy bolting me out of sleep and I was literally unable to sleep for the rest of the night because of too much vitality, and there were intense visuals as well as past-life Sanskrit/some weird script radiating out, as well as this bird's eye view of nearly a hundred thousand people looking up at me with 'familiar faces'. During the first depression, I became disenchanted with life, stopped watching TV/etc and became unbelievably nihilistic and depressed. I think this is probably what you meant by it?

 

Well, if you insist that the Buddha 'abandoned' jhana as a requirement, then what is your proof? Where in his Dharma, does it say that one does not need jhana? Even the Yogacarabhumi Shastra, which is written by the Bodhisattva Asanga as a message from Maitreya Bodhisattva, talks about the importance of jhanas (or called dhyanas). Christian saints talk about the levels of ecstasy, such as in St Teresa of Avila. These states are also present in various traditions like Kabbalah. They don't say they are goals, but they are certainly milestones. Phenomena that you see on the way in.

 

Some sects use the Bodhisattva Bhumi system instead. But they too have a graduated level, and specialised gong to cultivate blissfulness and transformation of body. Even the Surangama Sutra talks about the different levels of phenomena when tackling the skandhas one by one.

 

Without jhana, it becomes a Sevenfold Path. It's not a Theravada thing - all branches of Buddhism follow the Eightfold Path - whether it's Vajrayana, Theravada, Mahayana or Zen.

 

I do believe that even Dzogchen or Mahamudra practices that are 'purely mind' also have chakra teachings or 'graduated teachings'. They eventually lead through jhanas as well.

Edited June 26, 2017 by taoguy

[X2471990]

Ok that's a big question I'll start with this. cuz I fell like you mixing in so many different things here. Enlightenment in Buddhism is turning karma into Bodhi. Do you know what it means to have right thought, right action, right speach. I'd be more then happy to clearify it, but I'd like to see where your out so I can give you the right info. So what do these things mean what does it mean to have right speach etc? I'll get to the depression and what not after we clear this up.

[taoguy]

8 minutes ago, X2471990 said:

Ok that's a big question I'll start with this. cuz I fell like you mixing in so many different things here. Enlightenment in Buddhism is turning karma into Bodhi. Do you know what it means to have right thought, right action, right speach. I'd be more then happy to clearify it, but I'd like to see where your out so I can give you the right info. So what do these things mean what does it mean to have right speach etc? I'll get to the depression and what not after we clear this up.

 

Haha well, the fore-runner is Right View. Having right view, the middle-path, not attaching to self or no-self, not attaching to speculative views, etc - we enter a state of casting away 'false-thoughts', supplemented by right mindfulness, eventually entering right samadhi.

 

Right intention, speech and action have two modes in my opinion. Firstly, it is unguided by wisdom - for the sake of production of merit (or a cleaner state of mind for easier mindfulness and samadhi). Secondly, after entering samadhi, right intention, speech and action flows outwards naturally as Hui-Neng taught in the Platform Sutra.

 

I'm not too sure about karma itself turning into Bodhi. The Buddha taught in the sutras, saying that the Noble Eightfold Path produces "karma that is neither bright nor dark", eventually leading to liberation. Transformation of karma definitely occurs when changing the current flesh body into the Blessed Body (using reward body chi). But this can only be fully completed after realization of the Dharmakaya.

 

But Bodhi itself is completely separate from karma. It is uncreated, undestroyed, unchanging. To say that it is subject to life and death is equivalent to a self-sentence into the Avici hell after merits burn away - because of the slander of Bodhi nature (Surangama sutra).

 

The view of Dzogchen or Mahamudra is that Bodhi itself has never 'disappeared'. It is ever-present.

 

I'm not sure, but perhaps you meant the transmutation of karmic seeds in the Alaya consciousness to the Tathagata storehouse. Might be a language limitation. I am able to speak chinese if that is better for you.

[X2471990]

Your never gonna get there with all this info. Sure you have a lot of book knowledge on this but, your makeing a fundamental error. I honestly feel if I told you anymore I would be doing you a disservice. The eight fold path is really simply put about manitaing a state of samhadi in all aspects of our lives. Here is a perfect example of haveing a cup to full. You need to become empty to experience Jhana your not empty cuz if you where you wouldn't be here. So go get empty and hey you may not even need this form anymore for guidance.

[X2471990]

You need to simplify whit all this knowledge have you obtained peace of mind under any circumstances only you can answer that for your self I don't need to he answer. You gotta become empty.

[taoguy]

3 minutes ago, X2471990 said:

You need to simplify whit all this knowledge have you obtained peace of mind under any circumstances only you can answer that for your self I don't need to he answer. You gotta become empty.

 

I may say all this... but in my practice I do not dwell on them... Once I say them, I've already let go. These are all just 'book knowledge'. But they are still essential, like instruction manuals. Otherwise I would never have reached deeper states. But still I realize the immense value of the jhanas in taking one across the river, so I'm not sure why you would reject jhanas as a necessary bridge to enlightenment.

Edited June 26, 2017 by taoguy

[X2471990]

I never rejected them I just never emphasized them. 

[X2471990]

This form looked as if you wanted to know how to reach Jhana. What exactly are you looking for by this post just people's personal experience? And keep in mind iam not a Buddhist 

[taoguy]

1 hour ago, X2471990 said:

That's not what is meant by false dharma: the Buddha himself warned against jahnna and your interpretation of karma from a Buddhist stand point is in correct. I wrote a arrival on this called Buddhism karma and the great sunyata under the Buddhist section you might find that useful.

 

23 hours ago, X2471990 said:

If you want to reach Jhana concentrate on this very second in existence and remove identification with all thoughts. Completely concentrate on the arising and falling of breath. Please know from a Buddhist perspective that Jhana and getting  attached to this is samamsara yes these states are a part of that path but there are not the goal. Nor are they needed to obtain enlightenment. I posted a form it's titled Buddhism karma and the great sunyata I recommend reading if your interested in Buddhism. Understand the Buddha taught with a open hand there where no secrets so be mindful of people question your motive with Buddhist practices

 

I am not sure if I misinterpreted you, but if I have, do forgive me. Just quoting above what led me towards that interpretation.

[taoguy]

1 minute ago, X2471990 said:

This form looked as if you wanted to know how to reach Jhana. What exactly are you looking for by this post just people's personal experience? And keep in mind iam not a Buddhist 

 

Yes, it initially started with an intention to hear people's experiences. But it also had a subconscious intention (now that I realize due to Spotless pointing out) that I was also looking for some kind of guidance to advance in jhanas and beyond.

[X2471990]

And the reason I don't emphasize them is simply because enlightenment in Buddhism and that believe it or not was never a word used by the Buddha it came into play much later. But in Buddhism a Buddha is someone who has turned karma into Bodhi. I don't emphasize Jhana to do that nor do I reject it.

[X2471990]

Well if you know how to enter the Jhana then why not use the same tequinique and see if you can stay in that state for a longer period of time. You need more momentum. I personally do not have the momentum to reach Jhana anymore but I have become able to reach deep States of meditation where my conciciousnes leaves my body. Yet not of that is enlightenment. A Buddha is someone who has turned karma into Bodhi.

[X2471990]

Deep inner acceptance is what I emphasize to attain enlightenment as well as self awareness and a upright response to what is also know as compassion. And there is a reason I do this because many people may have a hard time understanding all the Jhana and deep meditation. Some of the most enlightened people I know where at one point some of the most degenerative. They are more enlightenmend then any monk I have meet and they don't know what the word Jhana even means. When someone is in pain I do not so you must enter Jhana I say try to find acceptance and inner surrender to what is. 

[X2471990]

Buddhism is about finding the end of suffering, if you think you need Jhana and all that that's fine I can only tell you from my direct experience not what a book says that's be translated and rewritten. And my direct experience is that yes I have entered Jhana and all of that for many it's needed experience of something beside the physical world and a means to gain awareness before the senses but I think me and you have a different view in enlightenment. I think you may view more of a monk as enlightened where I view the person who has been through hell and back survived has bettered there self lives through spiritual principles and can accept everything for what it is and enlightened. 

[taoguy]

13 minutes ago, X2471990 said:

Well if you know how to enter the Jhana then why not use the same tequinique and see if you can stay in that state for a longer period of time. You need more momentum. I personally do not have the momentum to reach Jhana anymore but I have become able to reach deep States of meditation where my conciciousnes leaves my body. Yet not of that is enlightenment. A Buddha is someone who has turned karma into Bodhi.

 

Because I realized what I thought was 'jhana' was not the authentic jhana described by enlightened masters such as Nan Huai Jin. It must be not only joyful, but literally a state that elevates you to the same living alambana/realm or jing-jie as a rupa-heaven deva, and that is something beyond the human realm itself.

 

Having a bit of joy itself is not jhana. I used to think it was jhana but I was just pitifully ignorant. By inducing highly concentrated states I could go into highly blissful states and joy to the point my body relaxes and I can no longer feel the body. But give it just 2 days and the feeling disappears. When I did this, I was also able to either maintain lucidity in sleep and also a few times managed to 'OBE'. But to be able to sustainably do it at a high level, I need higher vitality, which draws energy from the belly center. Also, there was too much 'brain center' and not enough heart, so I was unable to unify will and aspiration together. But all of these were just 'gong-fu', and gong fu fades when you do not sustain it.

 

It's true about compassion to open up the heart. I only truly understood both the heart and belly centers in their role and I guess they were the missing links to my will-only approach that did bring me into states with a lot of light, visuals, joy/bliss and OBEs. 

Edited June 26, 2017 by taoguy

[X2471990]

Someone like that may not have experienced Jhana but has turned karma into Bodhi so that's where my lack of emphasize on Jhana is

[taoguy]

Just now, X2471990 said:

Someone like that may not have experienced Jhana but has turned karma into Bodhi so that's where my lack of emphasize on Jhana is

 

Can I suggest that you put all of your sentences into one single post because it can be quite difficult to read and reply to.

[X2471990]

so what your saying is that none of this gave you lasting happiness 

[X2471990]

I think you need to move away from all this and start turning karma in to bodhi 

[X2471990]

That is what the Buddha did the Buddha was not a deva or a god. And the historical Buddha when he sat under the bodhi tree after years of practicing Jhana and all this meditation did exactly that turned his karma into wisdom and abided in a state of equanimity