The first jhana

[Seeker of Wisdom]

[...]Noting was similar to mantra repetition, TM style. How are you going to still the mind when you are constantly mentally reciting a mantra? Isn't the act of intending a new iteration of the mantra, activating it, releasing it etc all mental processes? And, like it says in "Mindfulness in Plain English" you are even supposed to keep the background (the subject or watcher still). So somehow I don't think noting is a good shamatha practice. It is a better vipassana practice.

I completely agree. Noting is for insight, not samadhi.

 

Noting seems to be a good way to keep the mind in a preconceptual state.

Yes. There's something very Bahiya-suttaish about it. Noting leaves no room for 'me', 'mine', etc. Vision is just vision, thought is just thought, emotion just emotion. Really incredible in its bare simplicity.

 

The problem though with noting for me, is that I can get so deep to a place where there are hundreds if not thousands of thoughts whizzing by so quickly that it is just impossible to note them all. It looks like a large stream of rainbow fishes. Have you ever tried to count or note the number of fish in a large school as they dart on by?

That's when you stop noting. Noting is a vipashyana tool, like breath-counting is a shamatha tool.

 

I still think to hit jhana or absorptive contemplation you have to learn how to hold everything still instead of moving your attention around hunting down the next new thought.

Yep.

[Tibetan_Ice]

Actually, this Dzogchen instruction sounds very similar to "noting practice" to me.

 

In both sutra and tantra what needs to be abandoned are the shackles of concepts and the shackles of attachment. But their manner of doing so is different, as explained above. Some will run away from the poisonous tree, some will try to cut it at its root, and some will take its fruit as medicine. The method of Dzogchen yogins and yoginis is to allow every emotional affliction at the moment of its arising to dissolve into its own natural state of being. There is no attempt to turn the affliction into something positive or to neutralize it by application of antidotes. Over time, through familiarization with the methods of Dzogchen, whatever thought a yogin might have arises as the meditation; but from outside, from the point of view of ordinary beings, the appearance of the fear of suffering and the hope for happiness seems no different. Unlike Dzogchen yogins, ordinary people turn these into solid entities, cultivating them or rejecting them, thus accumulating karma. For the yogin or yogini, whatever appears is released in the very moment of its appearing, so there is never any opportunity to become attached to it. At first, simply by knowing the thought, it is released, just like meeting a long lost friend. In the middle, the thought releases itself, just like a snake unwinding its coil. At the end, the thought releases without help or harm, just like a thief entering an empty house. To comprehend the manner of release is crucial. If we understand the manner of release, we will be free of the bonds of a dualistic mind.

 

So, by simply knowing the thought, it is released. That is from the book called "the Great Secret of Mind". It is part of Longchenpa's instruction.

[Anderson]

In order to truly understand the self liberation you need to be in the natural state when that happens.

Or you, all you do is play with the dualistic mind.

Someone who i respect very much has said that those who play with the dualistic mind and give importance to the temporary experiences of the energy manifestation of their mind will be blinded by the aparent extraordinariness of these experiences and will not descover their true nature for very very long time.

[Ichigo]

Actually, this Dzogchen instruction sounds very similar to "noting practice" to me.

 

So, by simply knowing the thought, it is released. That is from the book called "the Great Secret of Mind". It is part of Longchenpa's instruction.

Thanks for sharing your views!

 

I continue doing the noting practice without the labels... so just "noticing" if you willl

I find that much more comfortable then labling everything and much smoother. usually within 30 minutes I get this buzzing sound and pleasant sensations over the body (not piti)... the flavors are similar to when doing concentration practice but before entering jhana, but still it's different.

 

I am going to keep practicing this as it sounds/looks promising, maybe after a while I will be able to understand what people talk about on dharmaoverground by cycling over the nanas etc...

 

In any case I think the dharmaoverground forum is the best forum out there when it comes to insight and jhana stuff as people actually share their experience and diagnoses.

 

 

Perhaps you crossed A&P, then stalled in dissolution? Your description sounds like that: amazing vibrations -> boring couch potato stage. Not sure where I am on the maps myself, because I've had no really obvious landmarks.

Hmm, it could also be just because I never got to experience that again, trying to replicate the experience, and seeing no results, making it boring

[Tibetan_Ice]

So has anyone read Daniel Ingram's highly recommended book by Sayadaw?

From MCTB2:

 

For details of this practice, see Mahasi Sayadaw’s Practical Insight Meditation: Basic and Progressive Stages (1991), available online at various sites and in book form for very little money. I highly recommend that you read this book; it is short and to the point. Put another way, failing to read Practical Insight Meditation about five times would be basically crazy if you care about gaining insight.

 

 

https://ia801403.us.archive.org/14/items/bub_gb_M2S-7-lWzHIC/bub_gb_M2S-7-lWzHIC.pdf

 

Or here:

 

https://archive.org/details/bub_gb_M2S-7-lWzHIC

 

?

Edited August 21, 2015 by Tibetan_Ice

[Tibetan_Ice]

Ok. I've read "Mahasi Sayadaw’s Practical Insight Meditation: Basic and Progressive Stages (1991) once.

 

My goal is to read it five times too, like Daniel Ingram. ( the pages 32 and 35 are unreadable in the pdf due to some strange font. But, if you copy and paste the whited out garbled text into Notes, or some other text editor, it renders that text correctly)

 

Funny, I've switched to focusing the breath at the abdomen for two meditation sessions today and during the second one, I started to hit first jhana towards the end of it. (By the way, this is something that Alan Wallace said that was not achievable when focusing on the abdomen because the movements and sensations from breathing were too coarse at that location... Learn something new every day)

 

The other thing that I find strange is that in that book, the part of the instructions that says not to focus on the lights seems to be at odds with the typical instruction of using the nimitta as an entry point to jhana, as per Ajahn Brahm and other Theravada teachers. However, I will say that a nimitta/moon of white light is very prominent at the navel area and very easy to see psychically there, so maybe that counts for something..

 

However, when I started to hit the first jhana during my second session, I did notice that the path of motion of the abdomen's movements was turning into a counterpart sign (mental representation of the object of focus). According to Sayadaw, you would note that a few times until it disappeared and then go back to noting the sensations at the lower abdomen.

 

Interesting stuff.

Edited August 22, 2015 by Tibetan_Ice

[Ichigo]

Ok. I've read "Mahasi Sayadaw’s Practical Insight Meditation: Basic and Progressive Stages (1991) once.

 

My goal is to read it five times too, like Daniel Ingram. ( the pages 32 and 35 are unreadable in the pdf due to some strange font. But, if you copy and paste the whited out garbled text into Notes, or some other text editor, it renders that text correctly)

 

Funny, I've switched to focusing the breath at the abdomen for two meditation sessions today and during the second one, I started to hit first jhana towards the end of it. (By the way, this is something that Alan Wallace said that was not achievable when focusing on the abdomen because the movements and sensations from breathing were too coarse at that location... Learn something new every day)

 

The other thing that I find strange is that in that book, the part of the instructions that says not to focus on the lights seems to be at odds with the typical instruction of using the nimitta as an entry point to jhana, as per Ajahn Brahm and other Theravada teachers. However, I will say that a nimitta/moon of white light is very prominent at the navel area and very easy to see psychically there, so maybe that counts for something..

 

However, when I started to hit the first jhana during my second session, I did notice that the path of motion of the abdomen's movements was turning into a counterpart sign (mental representation of the object of focus). According to Sayadaw, you would note that a few times until it disappeared and then go back to noting the sensations at the lower abdomen.

 

Interesting stuff.

I have read Sayadaw book! great book, just like Daniel says, straight to the point... also it clears many doubts about the practice, he sure knows what he is talking about!

 

Yes! I also had success with the abdomen motion attention! if I might say so very fast especially when I tried to see the motions as something pleasurable, the bliss was pouring out so strongly that shifting my attention back to the abdomen was simply impossible...

 

However what I noticed is that when the object is at a narrow spot at the nostrils the mind is much much more quite then at the abdomen... even if willfully I wanted to think something, it would hardly let me... but with the abdomen part I feel that the mind is a bit more active despite experincing so much incredible bliss...

 

One other thing I came to a conclusion is that... long time before many times almost instantly every session a couple of times a day when I hit the first Jhana, my mind would get absorbed and take me to the second jhana where there is no more need to use an effort approach and everything takes care of itself... it's like my mind would slip into it instantly and I didn't have to maintain the first jhana too long to get there...

 

These days I don't get that "slip absorption" automatically, and it's not like my concentration or practice style or life style changed for it to affect it in such a way...

 

I have read many post on the dharmaoverground, and also Daniel Ingram himself mentions that once one reaches stream entry with the noting practice, the concentration practice can bring one to experience the Jhana states much faster and almost instantly upon a sit...

 

I hate bringing science to spiritual topics, but if I had to theorize, the mindfulness practice does something neurologic/or opens some kind of pathway or whatever and makes it for one easier to slip into these states without much effort in the first place.

[Tibetan_Ice]

Thanks for your comments Ichigo. Very interesting!

There appears to be two different practices going on. One is concentration/shamatha and the other is noting.

I thought that you get to the jhanas through the concentration practice. In noting practice you are supposed to note everything, and somewhat quickly too according to Daniel Ingram.

So are you doing concentration practice or noting?

[Ichigo]

Thanks for your comments Ichigo. Very interesting!

There appears to be two different practices going on. One is concentration/shamatha and the other is noting.

I thought that you get to the jhanas through the concentration practice. In noting practice you are supposed to note everything, and somewhat quickly too according to Daniel Ingram.

So are you doing concentration practice or noting?

yeah I get the Jhana through the concentration practice. Sometimes I am doing the concentration practice before starting the noting practice, but I think I will skip that and just do the noting practice so I can put more time in that.

 

From what I understand the vipassana jhanas are a bit different then the concentration ones:

 

http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/dharma-wiki/-/wiki/Main/vipassana+jhanas+

 

In that case, one reach them with insight meditation such as noting...

 

Some sessions when I did the noting practice I did feel bliss and joy and a very well sense of being... so maybe I am wrong and maybe not but that might be the the first vipassana jhana as mentioned.

 

Daniel M. Ingram:

The First Vipassana Jhana is the version of the First Samatha Jhana that instead of dwelling in some aspects of stability and the standard jhanic qualities of concentration, effort and bliss, instead looks at the insight-oriented aspects and attains to the following insight stages:

 

 

on the 2nd vipassana jhana there is this A&P event that one can drop on, usually these experiences are suppose to be mind blowing and memorable, which can also result sometimes in bliss 24/7 for a while as well

 

 

Here is a list by Daniel everything one can experience on a A&P event

http://integrateddaniel.info/the-arising-and-passing-away/

 

Still many stuff on the wiki for me especially things related to insight are really hard to understand for me, I will just continue practicing and see where it takes me

[Tibetan_Ice]

Thank you for all the links, Ichigo! It has taken me a bit of time to read them all and do some research.

I did not realize that there were also vispassana jhanas, but apparently it is true, a later development in the Buddhist timeline.

And, I can see now that the noting practice and the procedures in shamatha practice are different.

 

I found this about the difference between the jhanas. This monk seems quite knowledgeable..

 

 

 

Aside comment: rapid noting like Daniel Ingram suggests, up to 10 times per second is at the other end of the spectrum from trying to fix the concentration on one object and keep it there, isn't it? It reminds me of striving to become superconscious.

 

Thanks again for the discussion and links.

Edited August 23, 2015 by Tibetan_Ice

[Tibetan_Ice]

I have found an excellent writing about the stages of jhana ( although now I don't see much difference between shamatha jhana and vipassana jhana other than you examine it).

 

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/pesala/Pandita/html/jhanas.html

 

This is a really good summation and well worth the read.

[Tibetan_Ice]

I went back to focusing on the feeling of the breath at the nostrils. Since I am on vacation, I have been meditating three times a day sitting, and two times a day walking. I focus on the sensations in the feet during the walking meditation, trying to note and maintain my awareness solely on the feet.

 

Today I read Webu Sayadaw's writings here:

http://www.bps.lk/olib/wh/wh375-u.html

And this one too:

http://www.bps.lk/olib/wh/wh384-u.html

 

He is a proponent of continual practice of anapanasati, focusing at the air flow as it enters and leaves the nostrils. He is also an advocate of doing that practice 24 hours a day! Even instead of sleeping! According to him, if you lay down to sleep, you have given up. What a concept...

 

Anyway, today was my first attempt to continue the practice during the breaks. After I had finished my supper, I decided to do some focusing on the sensations at the nostrils while sitting with eyes open in my recliner. During the day's meditations (and the previous three days') I had no success at arriving at the first jhana. I might have been trying too hard or not hard enough, I don't know. I did notice today that during my first two meditations, my left nostril's breath flow was more prominent than the right nostril's. So, I started to focus on the sensation of the air passing by the nostrils. I noticed that the right nostril's air flow was now more prominent. I tuned into the sensation at the right nostril and BAM, I hit first jhana. The rapture started up within 3 seconds. I was amazed. Here I was, sitting in my recliner, eyes open, not really trying hard at all, mind very active with thoughts and I was getting a good strong sensation in the right nostril accompanied with rapture.

 

It was hard to believe. I mean, the last meditation in the afternoon was so tough. I had many thoughts and visions popping up and just couldn't seem to focus. I'd put in lots of effort and could attain some stability for about two or three seconds, then I would lose it. I thought that the rest of the day would pretty much be a write off.

 

Now here I was, focusing on the sensation at the right nostril for a few seconds and feeling the whole root chakra area, lower pelvis become consumed in rapture. It was so easy, I played around with it. Point at the feeling in the right nostril, feel the rapture. Notice that thoughts were still occurring, eyes were even open... Point again, more rapture, even more intense. As I played with it, the rapture was gaining in intensity. The rapture was also staying long after the initial focus and release at the nostril.

 

Now I believe that it may be true that once you gain access to a jhana, you can recall it at will. However, it has taken a while to get to that point.

 

Then a strange thing happened. I suddenly remembered a segment of a previous life, wherein I was a homeless person pushing a shopping cart next to this large bridge. The main city was below and I was accompanied by a female friend (also homeless), who for some reason I believe is also my friend in this current life. I didn't think you could get memories of previous lives on the first jhana, I thought you had to get to fourth jhana to be able to do that. Learn something new every day.

 

In my final analysis, I think that the ease of getting to first jhana was somehow related to the fact that the right nostril's air flow was more dominant than the left nostril's air flow, because the other three times I had achieved first jhana had been by focusing on the sensation in the right nostril, on the inhale (when I was using the focus at the nostrils technique).

 

I'm also curious about why it is easier to activate jhana from the right nostril...

Edited August 29, 2015 by Tibetan_Ice

[noonespecial]

Is like having an orgasm that lasts and lasts and lasts!

 

Once you understand the difference between awareness and knowing, and learn how to stabilize and concentrate the knowing into a focused beam, fixed on one spot, you will see what I mean.

 

im intrigued.

[Anderson]

I went back to focusing on the feeling of the breath at the nostrils. Since I am on vacation, I have been meditating three times a day sitting, and two times a day walking. I focus on the sensations in the feet during the walking meditation, trying to note and maintain my awareness solely on the feet.

 

Today I read Webu Sayadaw's writings here:

http://www.bps.lk/olib/wh/wh375-u.html

And this one too:

http://www.bps.lk/olib/wh/wh384-u.html

 

He is a proponent of continual practice of anapanasati, focusing at the air flow as it enters and leaves the nostrils. He is also an advocate of doing that practice 24 hours a day! Even instead of sleeping! According to him, if you lay down to sleep, you have given up. What a concept...

 

Anyway, today was my first attempt to continue the practice during the breaks. After I had finished my supper, I decided to do some focusing on the sensations at the nostrils while sitting with eyes open in my recliner. During the day's meditations (and the previous three days') I had no success at arriving at the first jhana. I might have been trying too hard or not hard enough, I don't know. I did notice today that during my first two meditations, my left nostril's breath flow was more prominent than the right nostril's. So, I started to focus on the sensation of the air passing by the nostrils. I noticed that the right nostril's air flow was now more prominent. I tuned into the sensation at the right nostril and BAM, I hit first jhana. The rapture started up within 3 seconds. I was amazed. Here I was, sitting in my recliner, eyes open, not really trying hard at all, mind very active with thoughts and I was getting a good strong sensation in the right nostril accompanied with rapture.

 

It was hard to believe. I mean, the last meditation in the afternoon was so tough. I had many thoughts and visions popping up and just couldn't seem to focus. I'd put in lots of effort and could attain some stability for about two or three seconds, then I would lose it. I thought that the rest of the day would pretty much be a write off.

 

Now here I was, focusing on the sensation at the right nostril for a few seconds and feeling the whole root chakra area, lower pelvis become consumed in rapture. It was so easy, I played around with it. Point at the feeling in the right nostril, feel the rapture. Notice that thoughts were still occurring, eyes were even open... Point again, more rapture, even more intense. As I played with it, the rapture was gaining in intensity. The rapture was also staying long after the initial focus and release at the nostril.

 

Now I believe that it may be true that once you gain access to a jhana, you can recall it at will. However, it has taken a while to get to that point.

 

Then a strange thing happened. I suddenly remembered a segment of a previous life, wherein I was a homeless person pushing a shopping cart next to this large bridge. The main city was below and I was accompanied by a female friend (also homeless), who for some reason I believe is also my friend in this current life. I didn't think you could get memories of previous lives on the first jhana, I thought you had to get to fourth jhana to be able to do that. Learn something new every day.

 

In my final analysis, I think that the ease of getting to first jhana was somehow related to the fact that the right nostril's air flow was more dominant than the left nostril's air flow, because the other three times I had achieved first jhana had been by focusing on the sensation in the right nostril, on the inhale (when I was using the focus at the nostrils technique).

 

I'm also curious about why it is easier to activate jhana from the right nostril...

As Tibetan Ice has reported me to the admin i was asked to remove or edit my post.

To those who are wandering what kind of person i am, i can tell them with the highest degree of certainty that i am not Mutsuk Marro's brother and neither her male verssion.I just enjoy sanctioning delusion from time to time.

Edited September 3, 2015 by Anderson

[Tibetan_Ice]

Just reading a book called "Breath by Breath" -Rosenberg. Very interesting... He says:

That connection gives you much more motivation to practice. If you can get intimate with the state of sukha, so that it is very real to you, it becomes much easier to get back to it. You just sit down, notice a few breaths, and you’re there. That isn’t an ability that develops quickly, but it may develop over time, through practice.

 

It is nice to get affirmations from the external world.

 

I also found this quite interesting... From http://www.lionsroar.com/entering-the-jhanas/

 

It is interesting that jhanic bliss is being equated to kundalini and tummo types of energy. That resonates with my experiences...

 

Piti can manifest as rocking or swaying, or it can be intense so that you are actually vibrating to the point where it is visible to others. It can manifest as heat and get very, very warm. Hopefully it has a pleasant aspect to it. Most often, it manifests as an upward rush of energy, often centered up the spine. I’ve talked with people who practice kundalini yoga, and it seems that piti is the same energy. I’ve talked with people who practice tummo, the Tibetan practice of generating heat, and I was told that this practice also involves generating the same sort of energy. It’s a known, widespread phenomenon that is used in different ways. Here, it is used to grab your attention and take you into a concentrated state. The arising of piti also has the nice side effect (for most people) of generating sukha, and, as one comes to see, sukha is the principal component of the second and third jhanas.

 

Edited September 5, 2015 by Tibetan_Ice

[Tibetan_Ice]

Update:

The last month has been interesting.

Since it was quite hard to establish the first jhana by focusing at the feeling of the breath as it touches the nostrils I decided to try Bhante Vimilaramsi's practice of Recognize, Release, Relax, Re-smile and Repeat. It is an interesting technique. When you realize that you have drifted off of the object of concentration, you release the distraction, relax the body and mind, smile and then go back to the object of meditation.

 

At first, it takes a while to incorporate the R practice and I found I was using any distraction to perform the R sequence. That in itself was quite a distraction. After a few days of practice I started to get e hang of it and I started hitting the first jhana regularly. Out of ten meditations, I hit first jhana seven times!

 

Then I became bored with it. Well, not quite as bored as wondering how I was going to get past the bliss and ecstasy to progress further. I couldn't figure it out and I was getting the feeling of not having enough vispassana. I was not gaining any new knowledge.

 

So, I decided to go back to Alan Wallace's technique of Awareness of Thoughts, like a lighthouse, undisturbed as the waves of thoughts come crashing against the shore. I spent the last two weeks doing that style of meditation as my "twice daily".

 

However, yesterday, I felt that I was making no progress with that technique. Basically, I can sit there and watch conglomerates of thoughts appear, stay for a while and then dissolve. What I learned is that some of the conglomerates of thoughts are nonsensical, seem to have no relation to me, my life or anything really. The other thoughts and conglomerates of thoughts seem to be all the relevant issues going on in my life during the last couple days, and these slowly are replaced with the new batch of experiences and issues that each new day brings. It seems endless and I don't have allot of confidence that gradually they will become less and less. It seems that they become more and more, the deeper I get.

 

So, today i decided to go back to breath meditation. Except this time, I decided to do Ajahn Brahm's method of "focusing on the part of the mind that knows the breathing cycle" rather than trying to maintain awareness of the feeling of the air as it passes through the right nostril.

 

I was going to focus on the location in the mind that "knows when one if breathing in" and "knows when one is breathing out".

 

I started the meditation and when I focused on the place where the mind knows that one is breathing in, it looked very clear and bright. Instead of the usual white-light representation of the counterpart sign which resembles a stream of off-white light that moves up and down with coordination to the breathing cycle, I found that the area that "knows" when I am breathing in and out to be very colorful and full of images! It was like being in the middle of three dimensional thoughts and little scenes surrounded by very clear space. I think this was probably an effect of the previous weeks' form of meditation of "watching thoughts"... the effect seems to be cumulative.

 

Anyway, I went with it and focused on that part of the mind in conjunction with "knowing when I was breathing in and knowing when I was breathing out". That particular location is closer to the center back of the head, in almost a straight line up from the center of the spine. It is like being in the center of the vertical shaft of the central channel (sushumna).

 

After a few minutes of practice, a bright star appeared in the little clear space where the colorful thoughts were located. Then, I hit the first jhana. The bliss started gushing out. It was very intense. I wondered how long I could take it (again). I stayed in this state for 40 minutes and then decided to stop. I had allot of joy, realizing that I didn't have to use the "nostrils" technique to reach first jhana, and the joy was more noticeable. Not only that, but the form of consciousness that I had achieved was clearer and more colorful than any previously accomplished jhanic states. I think I am getting closer to pure consciousness due to the greater clarity, the clearer detail and the lack of whitish pale cloudy mental formation.

 

One observation is that when the breath goes in, it is like there is a flow of energy up the central channel from the center of the medulla to just below the top of the head, and then on the out breath it reverses. Also, I can now hit first jhana just by placing my attention in exactly that location. Don't know how long that will last...

 

So, it seems that it has been beneficial to quit one practice and do another for a few weeks, and then return.

 

And, it seems that Vimilaramsi's technique is a good one. I did not believe it when I read that by using his technique, people were advancing in leaps and bounds, achieving jhanas much sooner than the "normal" practice practitioners. Now I believe it to be true. Jhanas are linked to relaxation and positive emotion so it is good to train in that too.

Edited October 12, 2015 by Tibetan_Ice

[Tibetan_Ice]

[Ichigo]

Hahaha! nice coincidence! since yesterday I started practicing Bhante's technique, I yet haven't tried it with the breath the whole sequence of releasing, smiling, back to object, I did it on his metta practice which he recommends the most, even more than the one with the breath... I soo get it what you mean when you first start practicing this sequence of his and how it became a distraction by itself... I have read many people swearing by his technique that they have done more progress than practicing another vippasana technique for years... hopefully I will get the hang of his technique as fast as possible.

 

Not gonna lie I am still a little bit skeptic about this whole metta practice, even though yesterday when I started practice with quite a skeptical mind, I did feel some energy stuff happening inside of me and at some point I felt my smile coming up automatically because of the nice feelings (not jhana factors)

 

But hey, he tells students to give it a try for a few days or weeks, he doesn't talk about years of trying it and than if it doesn't work to stop it. no, he tells everyone to give it a fair chance with results coming up in mere days.

Edited October 14, 2015 by Ichigo

[Ichigo]

W-O-W

 

I just tried the 6R with the breath sensation at the nostrils almost with every distraction applying 6R, and very fast I was knocking on 1st Jhana's door!, this concludes that the distractions doesn't matter nor does following the breath for a long time (without distraction), in fact may even speed hitting jhana faster!

 

This technique is going on my list permanently!

 

Also, after 20 minutes of this, I went to do the noting technique, and my mind's speed and accuracy was Amazing!!!! I don't know if this has to do with bhante's technique, but my mind feels very clear just like he suggests in his videos!

 

Bhante about Breath Meditation

 

PART: 1

 

PART: 2

Edited October 14, 2015 by Ichigo

[Tibetan_Ice]

Hi Ichigo,

Thank you for your posts. It is very nice to have someone else confirm that the practice works.

Yes, I've noticed that the 6R technique really helps to clear up the space in the head. I am getting to the point where the clarity is like swimming in an ocean of paints, each thought is a multicolored string, with breath meditation.

 

The interesting thing is that on a video I was watching about Bhante Vimilaramsi's retreat, he claims that 50% of his attendees reach nibanna during the retreat. Now, that is with the metta practice and smiling as much as possible to your spiritual friend. It is hard to believe. That same result was mentioned on Dharmawheel and everyone just dissed it. It is too bad that people are imprisoned by their beliefs.

 

Yes, I too will keep the 6R technique in my repertoire.

 

Thanks again for your comments.

[Tibetan_Ice]

Here is a good talk about nimittas by Ajahn Brahm.

 

[Ichigo]

Long time ago I came across this post on the dharmaoverground

 

http://www.dharmaoverground.org/discussion/-/message_boards/message/3722283

 

haven't paid too much attention to it before, but today I have reread this post and some other posts on another forum (he seems to be quite knowledgeable and knows what he talks about, very honest with himself)

 

The technique is more or less similar to bhante V, only without the smiling part and relax, btw they never explain to you how you even relax that tension in your head, everyone makes their own idea up on how to do it, but that doesn't make it correct.

I take my words back on permanently putting the 6R into my routine, first of all, he claims that with breath meditation the result takes 6 times longer to come, also I don't like metta practice, I don't feel any of this is real or speaks to me... second, forcing a smile, just isn't comfortable for me...

 

Now I am all in for having a practice with a combo of concentration and insight together, with the possibility to hit Jhana, and as I am already doing the noting practice, might as well use this guy's combo, which the mahasi tradition does more or less too...

 

The only thing I am unsure about with his technique, is that you only label distractions/sensations when it pulls your mind completely off the breath? because that's how it's done with bhante V... but he says that if you notice things entering your awareness but you are still on the breath, you don't apply the 6R...

 

So I asked this guy on the forum (he has been inactive for years) about this, hopefully he will get the message somehow

 

PS: I don't like the dhamawheel forum, I feel they are too closed minded, trying to proof each other always with arguments without trying to work on themself to some level

Edited October 23, 2015 by Ichigo

[Tibetan_Ice]

Hi Ichigo,

I think he answered your question in his post from that link to dharmaoverground (right at the bottom):

 

...

 

There is no noting of the breath going on. The only thing you should be noting are sensations that CAPTURE your attention, or get in the way of your focusing on the breath. Do not note things if they do not take your attention away from the breath. When focusing on the breath, you should do so just as you would with concentration practice, do not note the breath.

 

Imagine that when you note something and let it go, it disappears. Thoughts are like objects. As your breath is an object. Complete absorption is that of only 1 object. You would have successfully noted all thoughts in combination with being so focused that they simply do not come up anymore, and if they do, you note them so they go away. If you do not note them and simply ignore them, then they only grow in strength. The more absorbed concentration grows, the less thoughts will pop up. The less thoughts that pop up, the more quickly concentration will become absorbed. Hitting a Hard Jhana with this technique can usually be done in under 20 minutes.

 

The catch is, as your concentration deepens, so will the strength of your thoughts, and thus will your ability for those thoughts to capture your attention. You WANT the thoughts to capture your attention, because this is the only way to note them in a manner where they will not come back.

 

If you go out of your way to find sensations and note them, then you are obviously not concentrating on the breath and you will not enter the Jhana. As your concentration deepens, the energy of your awareness will increase. It is through this which more and more thoughts can capture your attention. Your primary task should be to focus on the breath. Thoughts are obstacles. When obstacles get in your way, note them, and let them go, then go back to focusing on the breath.

 

Do not note them if you do not know they are there. The only way you will know it is there, and the only way you will know that you need to note it is if you become aware of its existence while focusing on the breath. If you were to search for these thoughts, that would imply that you do not have current awareness of their existence.

 

You can only ignore something if you know it is there. So don't ignore thoughts. When you're concentrating, you're not ignoring the thoughts that you don't know are there. If you don't know they are there, then they simply fade away. If when you are focusing, you come to KNOW of the existence of a sensation, then that is what you note. This is the act of mindful concentration.

 

You basically keep noting that which is noticed in your attention, but do not go searching for them. If you are searching then you are not concentrating. Sometimes powerful sensations will arise that will enter your field of awareness, these are the things that you want to note. Things such as a buzzing noise in your room.

 

As clarity of mind increases so will your awareness of the sensations that arises. When your awareness/mindfulness of sensations is high, and concentration is strong enough, then anything you note should only arise once or twice during the sitting. Soon sensations will stop arising all together, mindfulness will be at it's peak, there will be no thoughts, and concentration will be very solid.

 

This is not full insight, nor full concentration, but a merging of them so that they become 1. Concentrate on the breath. Only note the things that enter your awareness. Try to be mindful, yet focusing on the breath only.

 

 

Imagine you are in a room of flies, and that you are concentrating on a particular part of the room. There are flies everywhere, but you don't go looking for them. When a fly enters your field of awareness, then catch(note) it. This is akin to noting a thought. When you catch it, it's done. You basically keep focusing on that field of awareness until no more flies/thoughts enter it. Combining these 2 things together, your concentration will begin to become absorbed with the thing that you are being aware of, and flies/thoughts will gradually stop entering your field of awareness.

 

This post is a little long so I tried to make it as clear as I could . Ask if you have any more questions.

 

Edit:

The goal to have a well developed Mindfulness as well as a well developed Concentration.

 

Mindfulness is developed by noting thoughts that capture your attention.

Concentration is developed by focusing your attention on a single object(preferably the breath)

 

You want to do these things simultaneously in such a way that they do not come in conflict with each other by your intentional action. Concentration is never stopped by intentional will, it is only interrupted by thoughts that capture your attention. You then use mindfulness to stop those thoughts and resume your concentration.

 

Regarding you aversion to smiling: Joy and happiness are jhanic factors, meaning that are part of the recipe that makes up the conditions for the first jhana to arise. That being the case, does one not have to cultivate joy and happiness or some form of positive emotion in order to succeed? I have had good results by adding the "loving of the breath" to my routine. Also, in Kunlun, they emphasize the "inner smile". If I think of this in terms of the layers of the body, one has to bring in the emotional body in order to break through or connect the sheaths of the body. I know, for example, that just a rush of love from the heart is enough to reveal the other planes that exist over top of this reality so it is all linked and powerful.

 

When I add the inner smile to my routine, the mind gets allot clearer much faster. That clarity comes from the heart. There is a large pool of it surrounding he heart. It is like a pool of clear luminous blissful water.

 

So there are a few ways to add positive emotion to meditation.

 

I'm not trying to sell metta meditation, I think the 6R practice is useful. But I will say this... When the heart expands with bliss, it does totally wipe out the mind. It is way more powerful than the mind.

 

Not sure if you wrote to someone on Dharmawheel or Dharmaoverground... If you do get a response would you mind sharing it?

 

[Ichigo]

Hey!

 

Thanks!

 

Since the dharmaoverground message thing is bugged I tried contacting him at

 

http://www.yogaforums.com/forums/members/siro-11629.html

 

Which shows he has been inactive for at least 2 years

 

Yeah, I have read that post about the noting part... at first I thought I got it by reading this line:

 

 

There is no noting of the breath going on. The only thing you should be noting are sensations that CAPTURE your attention, or get in the way of your focusing on the breath. Do not note things if they do not take your attention away from the breath.

 

The catch is, as your concentration deepens, so will the strength of your thoughts, and thus will your ability for those thoughts to capture your attention. You WANT the thoughts to capture your attention, because this is the only way to note them in a manner where they will not come back.

At this phrase I can translate it in the way that the distractions will capture or PULL my attention completely away from the breath and then note that distraction and come back to the breath...

 

Now later on there is this line

 

 

You basically keep noting that which is noticed in your attention, but do not go searching for them. If you are searching then you are not concentrating. Sometimes powerful sensations will arise that will enter your field of awareness, these are the things that you want to note. Things such as a buzzing noise in your room.

 

Imagine you are in a room of flies, and that you are concentrating on a particular part of the room. There are flies everywhere, but you don't go looking for them. When a fly enters your field of awareness, then catch(note) it. This is akin to noting a thought. When you catch it, it's done. You basically keep focusing on that field of awareness until no more flies/thoughts enter it. Combining these 2 things together, your concentration will begin to become absorbed with the thing that you are being aware of, and flies/thoughts will gradually stop entering your field of awareness.

I get the part of not looking for stuff to note, however here I feel it implies that even when you are STILL on the breath and distractions or sensations arise, even though they don't PULL your attention off the breath, you still not them...

 

So I am unsure which is correct... if it were the second one, I would be noting the whole time, because even when on the breath one might sense the smallest sensation entering your awareness field and focus on the breath would be greatly reduced...

 

If the first one is correct, well then it's like that of Bhante V, where you only note stuff that pulls your focus from the breath completely...

Edited October 24, 2015 by Ichigo

[Ichigo]

SO I tried the technique!

 

Within around 5 minutes piti energy started to pervade my body! I like when it hits the chest/heart area, it's soo blissful!!!

Anyway!, I focused on the bodily bliss, it grew stronger, then I got excited that the technique actually works and about reporting it here , then it faded away... then it took me some minutes to calm myself down, I continued the practice (30 minutes in total)... near the end bliss started to rise again, I almost got a full blown jhana absorption! almost!, everything (the background, eyes closed) became super bright, bliss became heavenly, (however that's only before the absportion takes place, when it takes places you are actually bathing and completely blissed out in bliss, that's the so called 2nd Jhana, when you don't need to put effort in anymore) that's the absorption I am familiar with and always had before (in dharmaoverground they call it hard jhana), for me that's the real jhana, when it actually goes all the way and pervades your entire body and mental with bliss energy without directing any effort into the breath, but just being with bliss, that even when you try to think something, it will be very hard... it's always good to use bodily bliss as the object, but only when it becomes stable and strong enough, then it will take one all the way to an absorption

 

Anyway great session! even now as I write this my feeling of well being is over the top, yeah!!!!

 

PS: it's funny, the whole session I almost or at all didn't feel the breath sensation at the nostrils spot, yet coming back to that spot and trying to feel the breath there seems enough for it to work as well...

 

PS2: about the noting, I actually don't note verbally, on whatever distracts me from the breath, I just become aware of it for 1 or 2 seconds like he said, and then returning to the nostril spot to watch the breath over there...

 

EDIT: short second season, piti energy arised not more then 2-3 minutes!! almost instantly as I laid down, most of the season I just stayed with that energy, feeling all fuzzy and blissful!!

 

I am barely even on the nostrils/breath, distractions are raping me from all directions

 

Anyway, I am going to stop reporting until I get a full absorption, else I will get distracted by reporting this and that during practice haha

Edited October 24, 2015 by Ichigo