Cleary's translations/interpretations

[damdao]

Hi! I was reading this thread

http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?/topic/18847-liu-i-ming-18th-century-taoist-adept/

and a question has arisen. In reading Cleary's translations, and I'm thinking about The Secret of Golden Flower, Awakening to the Tao and Back to the Beginnings, I can see a strong influence of certain topics found in Idries Shah's books about sufism and the spiritual path. Specifically: the importance of living into the society, the integration of spiritual path to a not hermit daily life, flexibility in the practices, psychologic approach to the texts, and the temporary application of practices.

Of course, all of these topics are found in classical daoist literature but the questions are: Are this topics emphasized in classics as Cleary render them? How much and long is his interpretation? Does you know living representants of the points of view illustrated by Cleary such as "integrate the illumination to the life" or "understanding in the marketplace"? My impression is that the monastic approach is most prevalent, but I don't know.

Thanks in advance

Edited December 11, 2011 by damdao

[Jetsun]

I'm not sure if I fully understand the question you are asking but if you are looking for more information about approaches for developing spiritually in normal life rather than as a hermit then there is an approach called the "Fourth Way" developed by G.I. Gurdjieff which is all about using the struggles of normal life as fuel for practice, or rather it was rediscovered by him as he didn't invent it as it is ancient knowledge. Idries Shah had connections to the Fourth Way and tried to claim it consisted of ancient Sufi Knowledge and although it is influenced by Sufism it is not a Sufi path like he claims. As for living representations of this path I can't point you to individual living masters as most of the work is done in groups but unknown to most people there are Fourth Way groups in almost every large city in the world, you just need to know where to look to find them.

 

From Cleary's writings I have only found this working in normal life approach emphasised in Liu I Ming's work while most other Taoist and Buddhist approaches seem to emphasise the importance of going into isolation and retreat, although I do wonder how much Taoism has been influenced by the Buddhist monastic tradition regarding this issue.

[damdao]

Thanks Jetsun for the answer.

I'll try to make clearer my point:

From a literal point of view it seems to me that the monastic tradition is stronger in daoism as well in buddhism. However, Cleary in his translations AND commentaries stresses a form of social commitment in the daoist way, a path not isolated (between others point more related with sufism and Shah's approach).

Bruce Frantzis in speaking of daoists living and doing things into the society call them "leftists".

I know that some of you know daoists around the world, so what is their approach? Is there an echo of what Cleary emphasized or is a construction of him?

[EagleShen]

All of my main Taoist teachers have emphasised the importance of 'living a normal life'. They also have an attitude of balance, ie it's important to spend time in retreat and it's important to bring it back into the world.

[al.]

Hi! I was reading this thread

http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?/topic/18847-liu-i-ming-18th-century-taoist-adept/

and a question has arisen. In reading Cleary's translations, and I'm thinking about The Secret of Golden Flower, Awakening to the Tao and Back to the Beginnings, I can see a strong influence of certain topics found in Idries Shah's books about sufism and the spiritual path. Specifically: the importance of living into the society, the integration of spiritual path to a not hermit daily life, flexibility in the practices, psychologic approach to the texts, and the temporary application of practices.

Of course, all of these topics are found in classical daoist literature but the questions are: Are this topics emphasized in classics as Cleary render them? How much and long is his interpretation? Does you know living representants of the points of view illustrated by Cleary such as "integrate the illumination to the life" or "understanding in the marketplace"? My impression is that the monastic approach is most prevalent, but I don't know.

Thanks in advance

 

Speaking of traditions that encourage living within society, if you haven't already, you might find the life of Lahiri Mahasaya inspiring...

lahiri mahasaya

 

But in regards to Thomas Cleary, although he has made translations of Islamic and Sufi texts, which might suggest he holds this influence in his translations, I doubt that this is actually the case, given his own reclusive tendencies. From my point of view, the different aspects and practices of Daoism are so complex and integrated throughout every layer of traditional Chinese culture that it would be too sweeping to generalize about the monastic or wandering traditions..

 

It's an interesting topic though, as no doubt to reach the same level of cultivation in a city as on the mountain would require greater skill, and perhaps be of much greater service. The virtue of compassion seems to be key here..