How to determine someone's level of enlightenment?

[goldisheavy]

If you think like this, then you will not be able to apply wisdom in a nuanced fashion through conceptual elaboration.

 

Then, how about, wisdom is a product of consciousness? How about that, does that work for your personal sensibilities?

 

No, that doesn't work either. Wisdom is a result of recognizing unskillful beliefs by being mindful and observing the effects beliefs have in day to day life. So wisdom appears in consciousness, but wisdom has specific conditions leading to its arising. If you just say wisdom is a product of consciousness, you're failing to mention these specific conditions that are necessary for wisdom.

 

Consciousness is much too general a term. Consciousness is accommodating and flexible. It's fine with ignorance and it's fine with wisdom. Consciousness doesn't lean toward wisdom. Wisdom is a personal choice. If you choose to be ignorant, consciousness will support you just as happily.

 

Wow, this old dog can't learn new tricks, can he?

 

What are you talking about?

[Informer]

By considering your subjective experience an ideal mode of determining the nature of things as monistic. You are basically taking the subject that is you and expanding it universally through saying, "I'm not the body, but I am more what made the body, and more what made that body, so on and so forth to the big bang" and considering it proof of an experience of an ultimate ineffable substratum as a self existing Alpha, which you might call Tao that is also Omega. So, through subjective idealism, you have rationalized your experience of intuition as proof of monistic idealism (ultimate oneness). Which is basically taking the small self clinging and applying it to a non-conceptual state of mind where you felt "one" with everything calling that the ultimate Self of all things?

 

For me, Tao just means the way of mutually dependent co-origination of all phenomenal arisings without a self, neither individually, except relatively, but also not a Self universally. I'm more from a Buddhist camp view point though. So, I wouldn't know exactly how you internalize the term Tao and I bet it will deepen as you deepen your self awareness over the time of practice as it will for me.

 

Nope, more I as an individual being a single aspect of a greater spirit which connects to us all. Simply energy, and a culmination of all of the elements entertwined. There are many aspects upon realizing the true self. Each aspect has a coinciding chakra that acts as a gateway to that element. Until you reach the third eye of intuition, you cannot even ponder enlightenment in my book. Some may call it upper Dan Tien. Once this chakra is activated it is a gateway to the greater self. So spirituality/enlightenment isn't about science or big bang or anything like that for me. If anything I would attempt to use spiritualit to define aspects of the objective world.

 

What I know is just an interpretation of my own experiences. There is a great source of energy within the third eye/upper dan tien. Divine energy.

Edited July 18, 2011 by Informer

[goldisheavy]

Ok, I'm just going to repeat what I said before to you GIH, as it is very important.

 

Intention precedes all states. That is basically what you are saying.

 

That's not what I am saying. If intention preceded a state, then there would be a moment of intent, followed by a moment of the result of intent. I don't propose this at all.

 

Instead in each state intent is immanent. Think of intent as a direction. The car drives in a certain direction at all times. It's not true that first there is a moment of pure direction, followed by a moment of pure driving. Instead every driving moment is characterized by direction.

 

The effect of intention may not be complete control, but even then that effect of non-complete control is completely controlled by this intent. Correct?

 

What do you mean by the bolded "completely?"

 

Actually, a speaker can't exist without sound. Sound is the whole reason speakers were invented.

 

I can switch off my speakers when I don't want to wake up my wife.

[thuscomeone]

The mind is intentional through and through, although the effect of intention does not enter the extreme of complete control. All things are always in a state that reflects the state of intent.

"All things are in a state that reflects the state of intent." Intent always come first according to you. Whatever state arises comes from intent. Thus all states are completely controlled by something. Completely meaning that there is no state which isn't intended. What is in complete control? You tell me.

 

You are proposing that there is something which is directing and determining. What is that?

 

Right, and if there weren't sound that you played through the speakers for you to turn off, there would be no speakers.

 

One who claims to understand DO should know that.

Edited July 18, 2011 by thuscomeone

[Informer]

Why do you guys think that people believe that thier way is better or the best? Because they actually begin to feel the aspects, yet only know the way they were taught. Then people decide to argue over meaningless semantics.

 

 

What is real is what is inside,

 

Who cares how it is described.

[goldisheavy]

Your enlightenment is mere concept pushing,

 

You are wrong.

 

it merely scratches the surface. Trust me GIH. Listen to what I have to say, it's worthy of hearing.

 

I always ask people to question what I say and never to take my word for anything. Instead you tell me to listen to you unquestionably. You exhibit an attitude of a devil when you do this.

 

You do not teach meditation techniques and mantra techniques,

 

That's not strictly true. I mostly teach people mindfulness and inquiry, but once in a while I recommend a meditation technique (especially if I think the person is overly agitated or anxious). There are tons of people around who recommend meditation. I don't lift the entire burden by myself. Instead I look around and find what's lacking. Meditation instructions are not lacking. Inquiry is lacking. Severely.

 

I don't teach mantras, that's true.

 

mantras that have been used by beings who became enlightened masters that have walked the Earth thus by using them you are creating a karmic connection to them. A liberating karmic connection so powerful that you have no idea what I'm talking about because your experience is limited by it's lack of true practice and attainment.

 

Actually my practice is extremely sincere, and because of that, it's as true as it can ever be for anyone anywhere. So there is no doubt whatsoever that my practice is true. My practice is not the same as your practice because if I did the things you did, it would be pretentious for me.

 

You also don't teach yogic techniques which help the body cells change their vibration and hold the state of rigpa with clarity through the physical apparatus.

 

Err... I teach that rigpa is non-physical and that all the physical appearances are just merely appearances without any kind of physicality behind them, underpinned instead by habit. Because of this, there is no way I can teach what you describe, because I'd be teaching people to be ignorant if I did that. I don't teach ignorance.

 

You also don't teach visualizations which bring the mind into non-conceptual states of wisdom which can lead to the Jalus. This is a compassionate manifestation for the sake of elongating ones connection with physically present beings beyond the 3 dimensional appearance of ones personal body.

 

I do teach visualization from time to time, but not for the purpose of emanating a rainbow body. If you understand the meaning of what I teach, you'll be able to eventually transform the mental habits responsible for keeping the body appearance solid, thus emanating a rainbow body. But this will only happen if it's your true sincere intent. In other words, I give people all the tools they need to manifest anything they can ever want. I tell people about the wish fulfilling gem, as well as why and how it fulfills all wishes at all times. There is no need to confuse people with techniques. Once people understand the principle of manifestation, they can come up with their own techniques, like a boss.

 

Seriously, you are deeply lacking in anything other than a good dose of concept pushing.

 

Not true.

[thuscomeone]

You teach people? Who?

[Vajrahridaya]

 

What is real is what is inside,

 

Who cares how it is described.

 

That would be subjective idealism, not recognizing interdependent origination/emptiness.

 

It all depends upon how you define liberation. If you think it's just a good inside feeling, then that would not be insight into the nature of self as inter-dependent, but rather that subjective experience is idealized as ultimate. Which it is to a degree, otherwise you wouldn't have the capacity to discern between what increases and deepens insightful joy and what does not, but what gave you the possibility to have this experience to begin with?

Edited July 18, 2011 by Vajrahridaya

[xabir2005]

Yes, I am better than any lineage in the specific ways I described. Lineages might be better than me in some other ways. For example in a lineage you can find a bigger community than in me. If the size of the community matters, then it's an advantage of the lineage over me. I have no problem admitting such things.

don't flatter yourself.

 

You are only "better" than the true lineages in your arrogance.

[goldisheavy]

"All things are in a state that reflects the state of intent." Intent always come first according to you.

 

Intent doesn't come first. Intent is the directional property of phenomena. If intent somehow came first, it would need to exist in a state that's separate and disconnected from its result. That's not logically sensible and it contradicts my personal experience of intentionality.

 

Whatever state arises comes from intent.

 

States are intentional but they don't come from intent. I don't like the "come from" formulation.

 

Thus all states are completely controlled by something.

 

Control by itself is already too extreme a term. Complete control is extreme beyond any doubt. The word I would use is influence.

 

Completely meaning that there is no state which isn't intended.

 

Yes. However intent doesn't result in perfect control. In other words, if I hold my arm out, it will shake a bit. I can't perfectly control my arm. Still, my arm goes out as intended for the most part when I decide to hold it out.

 

Intent in our day to day usage is strongly conditioned by beliefs and habits. So there are limits to what we can sincerely intend. You can't intend something you don't believe is possible. While all things are possible in theory, in practice beliefs obscure and hinder this. But even if one knows all things are possible, there is still habit to deal with.

 

What is in complete control? You tell me.

 

Within your field of awareness all things are manifestations of your intent. Those things are not perfectly controlled, but they generally reflect your intent.

 

It's like a flock of sheep that generally follows the herder's prompting even if you don't control each individual sheep. That's the general principle. This example shows the difference between control and influence. But this example should not be taken literally because in this example the herder is an animal on par with the sheep. Intent is not an object on par with other objects. This is the limitation of using examples. While I demonstrate one property by example, I obscure another.

 

It's not how people ordinarily feel because human intent is conditioned by beliefs about being human. In other words, you can only do things you believe humans can do, because you believe yourself to be a human actor. Since you think you are a human actor, your intent acquires some limitations inherent in that belief.

 

You are proposing that there is something which is directing and determining. What is that?

 

I don't understand your question here.

 

Right, and if there weren't sound that you played through the speakers for you to turn off, there would be no speakers.

 

That's true.

 

One who claims to understand DO should know that.

 

My point was that speakers don't always emit sound. Sometimes they emit sound and sometimes they do not. Mind is not like that. Mind cannot sometimes fail to cognize something.

Edited July 18, 2011 by goldisheavy

[Vajrahridaya]

You are wrong.

 

Ok, I don't know what you do offline.

 

I always ask people to question what I say and never to take my word for anything. Instead you tell me to listen to you unquestionably. You exhibit an attitude of a devil when you do this.

 

That would be an extreme interpretation.

 

 

That's not strictly true. I mostly teach people mindfulness and inquiry, but once in a while I recommend a meditation technique (especially if I think the person is overly agitated or anxious). There are tons of people around who recommend meditation. I don't lift the entire burden by myself. Instead I look around and find what's lacking. Meditation instructions are not lacking. Inquiry is lacking. Severely.

 

Sure for plenty.

 

I don't teach mantras, that's true.

 

You stated with a sense of absolutism, "Your masters are fakes" So, I regret to inform you that you came across as a fake in that moment.

 

 

 

Err... I teach that rigpa is non-physical and that all the physical appearances are just merely appearances without any kind of physicality behind them, underpinned instead by habit. Because of this, there is no way I can teach what you describe, because I'd be teaching people to be ignorant if I did that. I don't teach ignorance.

 

That's not Rigpa. Rigpa is also physical. It's the directly cognized or aware insight into the nature of things as Dharmakaya, Sambhogakaya, and Nirmanakaya. The realization of emptiness (dharmakaya), the energy of it's realization (sambogakaya) and the expression through conceptual and rigid formations as a physical body (nirmanakaya).

 

I do teach visualization from time to time, but not for the purpose of emanating a rainbow body. If you understand the meaning of what I teach, you'll be able to eventually transform the mental habits responsible for keeping the body appearance solid, thus emanating a rainbow body. But this will only happen if it's your true sincere intent. In other words, I give people all the tools they need to manifest anything they can ever want. I tell people about the wish fulfilling gem, as well as why and how it fulfills all wishes at all times. There is no need to confuse people with techniques. Once people understand the principle of manifestation, they can come up with their own techniques, like a boss.

 

While diminishing true lineages with actual people who have actually attained the Rainbow Body? Thus, you are just barking here, self protecting and not actualizing anything of what you've said. What students of your lineage of expression have attained the Jalus?

 

Not true.

 

Not proven otherwise to me at least. I don't know you offline though. But, the way you talk of my teachers and their lineage, is quite reflective of lack insight on your part.

Edited July 18, 2011 by Vajrahridaya

[thuscomeone]

Ok, you don't like "come from."

 

So would you say that there is an "intender" (something which is doing the intending) and an "intent"? Can these be separated?

 

I have a hard time understanding many of your posts. Your consistent obscurantism ("it's not quite this...it's not quite that") makes it difficult to figure out what you are talking about; to pick out the point you are trying to make.

 

When you say that "all things in the field of awareness are manifestations of your intent" you are supposing something which is in control. It is controlling the contents of this field. My experience has led me to believe the opposite.

Edited July 18, 2011 by thuscomeone

[goldisheavy]

The ability to transmit Rigpa and the practices that help mantain this level of insightful awareness.

 

I am a master then. I can point out rigpa. In fact I am pointing it out all this time in this thread.

 

As for maintaining rigpa, once you see it, it maintains itself. It's like once you know that the sky is above and the ground is below, you don't need to do a practice to make sure the sky remains above the ground. It would be completely contrary to the realization of rigpa to try to maintain it. In rigpa all things are maintained naturally. In other words, rigpa maintains everything, including you as an object of perception and your world. It would be preposterous to try to maintain it. So rigpa as primordial awareness is like this.

 

But rigpa as knowledge or insight is maintained by simply remembering the knowledge. If you remember the knowledge from time to time, you won't forget it. If you understand the importance of knowledge and the consequence of forgetting it, there is very little chance you'll forget it, because you will most likely think that if you remember one thing in your whole life, rigpa will be that one thing to remember.

 

You spend much time speaking from a conceptual point of view that is best defined through the Buddhadharma, while never actually having delved into it's practice

 

That's false.

 

through genuine lineage.

 

All lineages are false. None are genuine. You have been deceived.

 

You consider yourself to be a Master of it's essential wisdom,

 

Wrong. I consider myself to be the master of my own wisdom, which I also believe is beneficial to many other people. When I teach people I tell them: you too be a master of your own wisdom! I don't think my wisdom belongs to any lineage. In fact, the situation is the reverse. Various lineages have usurped wisdom which is mine in the first place. I have reclaimed my wisdom and crushed all the lineages who have presumed to make my wisdom secret contrary to my wishes. The secret-keeping and/or exclusivist lineages are thieves who have no place in my field of awareness.

 

without regard for it's genuine practices of Mantra, Mudra, Visualization and Yoga. Since you are without disciples, you should be able to attain the rainbow body at your time of death if you are such a master of the mysteries as exposed by Dzogchen but without it's living lineage, none the less.

 

The main requirements for attaining the rainbow body are as follows:

 

1. One must understand the nature of mind, including the non-physical nature of all appearances, habits, beliefs, intentionality, and so on.

 

2. One must be willing to let go of being an ordinary human. In some sense a person manifesting a rainbow body is a nonhuman person.

 

3. To the extent the relinquishment of the human identity is necessary, one must also relinquish humanity as a whole. Being sentimental about humanity on the whole while thinking one has let go of one's identity as a human in personal terms is a great folly. Being human means nothing without humanity as the context.

 

If you have these 3 prerequisites, you have to practice various ways to loosen up mental habits of rigidity. I can give such practices, but I usually do not, because if you understand all there is to know about mind, you'll know what these practices are without having to hear of them from me. Still, we can discuss these if there is interest, but these kinds of practices are crazy from the ordinary point of view.

 

Having students makes no difference. Being near death makes no difference except it helps one to be more sincere in letting loose. Someone who is not near death still has doubts unless the person is exceptional. Exceptional people don't have to wait to die to realize rainbow body.

 

If you stay trapped in critical thinking, you're lost buddy.

 

On the contrary. Critical thinking is what eventually melts all the rigid and fallacious conceptual structures. Without critical thinking you lack the tools to do the heavy lifting required to realize the rainbow body.

 

It's a safe arrogance that's better than your self arisen arrogance. At least the reasons for my arrogance are beyond myself. One cannot say the same about your arrogance.

 

The reasons for your arrogance are not beyond yourself. You are responsible for your arrogance, but like a child you refuse to take responsibility.

 

Sure, and this is where critical thinking can be good, but where critical thinking can be bad is when one is just critical without thinking about it's bitter causes from within.

 

Lineage also holds secret various teachings and methods in order to maintain the purity of these teachings and practices so that they don't get abused by people who are just not ready for these methods, and people who would actually be harmed by applying these practices.

 

This is 99.9% bullshit. I'll grant you 0.1% truth for that claim.

 

Like Vajrayana Yantra Yoga practices, should really be learned directly from a master, otherwise these practices can lead to harm.

 

Anything can lead to harm. Even inaction can lead to harm. Good intentions can lead to harm sometimes.

 

Also, Highest Yoga Tantra karmamudra practices should be learned from a master in order that they don't get polluted, like they have already in neo-tantra groups that just use it for the sake of elongated sexual satisfaction.

 

Again, you take the negative road, I'll take the positive road. I have not experienced this in the lineages I've practiced through. So, your statement is a mute point according to my personal experience and merely conjecture based upon reading some "shit" and not actually practicing lineage transmissions.

 

Thus, you are ignorant when it comes to talking about lineages and are merely a critic without any direct experience to base your criticisms on.

 

Vaj, you know it's personal with you. You know that when I criticize the lineage I am threatening an important part of your personal identity. This is why you react so traumatically. If you really had faith in your lineages, you wouldn't defend them as if lineages were soap bubbles. Of course you know soap bubbles is what they are. They teach you that themselves, if you are willing to pay attention.

[goldisheavy]

You stated with a sense of absolutism, "Your masters are fakes" So, I regret to inform you that you came across as a fake in that moment.

 

When you think I am fake, there is no danger at all. Danger only arises when you think other masters are real.

 

That's not Rigpa. Rigpa is also physical.

 

Rigpa is not physical. Nothing is physical.

 

While diminishing true lineages with actual people who have actually attained the Rainbow Body?

 

You are taking these things on faith, are you not? Have you been in the presence of someone who has attained rainbow body? No, you have not. Why can I be so certain? Because you don't have the necessary intentionality and mindset to meet such a master. For example you believe rigpa is physical. Secondly you don't understand the mirage-like nature of lineages and you cling to them as if they were your body. In this sentimental state of mind there is very little chance for you to encounter a magical phenomenon like a rainbow body.

 

But I'll tell you some good news. You are obsessed with the rainbow body, so you are likely to attain it at some future point. You seem to genuinely want to experience having a rainbow body. As you probably know, you can't attain a rainbow body if you don't think it's impressive or interesting or otherwise worth experiencing.

 

Thus, you are just barking here, self protecting and not actualizing anything of what you've said. What students of your lineage of expression have attained the Jalus?

 

I don't have a lineage. I just discuss what I know and if someone learns something, good. If not, that's good too. Don't you think it would be hypocritical of me to criticize lineages and then to have one of my own?

Edited July 18, 2011 by goldisheavy

[goldisheavy]

Ok, you don't like "come from."

 

So would you say that there is an "intender" (something which is doing the intending) and an "intent"? Can these be separated?

 

There are people. You are a person. As a person you experience intentionality in a way that's different from me as a person. Whether or not you are able to see an "intender" within your person is a function of your intent. If you like you don't even have to be a person, but since I am talking to you, you most likely consider yourself to be a person. Finding an intender within your person or failure to find an intender are both imaginary intentional experiences.

 

I have a hard time understanding many of your posts. Your consistent obscurantism ("it's not quite this...it's not quite that") makes it difficult to figure out what you are talking about; to pick out the point you are trying to make.

 

There is a reason for this. You're trying to get at something which is not obvious and which resists crass categorization efforts. You lean toward simplistic caricatures and simplifications of truth, and that's unfortunate.

 

When you say that "all things in the field of awareness are manifestations of your intent" you are supposing something which is in control. It is controlling the contents of this field. My experience has led me to believe the opposite.

 

The one who is supposing such things is you and not me. You're the one who always tries to insert words into my mouth. In large part that's the reason for my so-called "obscurantism."

Edited July 18, 2011 by goldisheavy

[Vajrahridaya]

I am a master then. I can point out rigpa. In fact I am pointing it out all this time in this thread.

 

As for maintaining rigpa, once you see it, it maintains itself. It's like once you know that the sky is above and the ground is below, you don't need to do a practice to make sure the sky remains above the ground. It would be completely contrary to the realization of rigpa to try to maintain it. In rigpa all things are maintained naturally. In other words, rigpa maintains everything, including you as an object of perception and your world. It would be preposterous to try to maintain it. So rigpa as primordial awareness is like this.

 

You should go study with a real living Master, a master from lineage with teachers who've actually attained the Jalus, talk to them directly and see what they say about all this intellectual rummaging.

 

 

But rigpa as knowledge or insight is maintained by simply remembering the knowledge. If you remember the knowledge from time to time, you won't forget it. If you understand the importance of knowledge and the consequence of forgetting it, there is very little chance you'll forget it, because you will most likely think that if you remember one thing in your whole life, rigpa will be that one thing to remember.

 

It must be integrated into every nuance of one's personal being through visualizations, which may arise spontaneously that illumine the unconscious and the subconscious and physical movements that integrate and ground it's reflection through the physical cells.

 

 

That's false.

 

Ok, who are your Buddhist teachers then? You just read some books and gained some knowledge, thinking you've mastered the perspective?

 

 

All lineages are false. None are genuine. You have been deceived.

 

You have dear fellow. You poor, poor soul.

 

So, your lineage of personally ascertained information and your lineage of personal experience has illumined that fact for us, has it? You poor deluded fellow.

 

Wrong. I consider myself to be the master of my own wisdom, which I also believe is beneficial to many other people. When I teach people I tell them: you too be a master of your own wisdom! I don't think my wisdom belongs to any lineage. In fact, the situation is the reverse. Various lineages have usurped wisdom which is mine in the first place. I have reclaimed my wisdom and crushed all the lineages who have presumed to make my wisdom secret contrary to my wishes. The secret-keeping and/or exclusivist lineages are thieves who have no place in my field of awareness.

 

Wow, how deluded you are by personal pride. It's quite sad. You do have such potential though.

 

The main requirements for attaining the rainbow body are as follows:

 

1. One must understand the nature of mind, including the non-physical nature of all appearances, habits, beliefs, intentionality, and so on.

 

2. One must be willing to let go of being an ordinary human. In some sense a person manifesting a rainbow body is a nonhuman person.

 

Intellectual musings.

[Vajrahridaya]

3. To the extent the relinquishment of the human identity is necessary, one must also relinquish humanity as a whole. Being sentimental about humanity on the whole while thinking one has let go of one's identity as a human in personal terms is a great folly. Being human means nothing without humanity as the context.

 

Actually one of the pre-requisites for attaining the jalus is for the sake of all sentient beings.

 

If you have these 3 prerequisites, you have to practice various ways to loosen up mental habits of rigidity. I can give such practices, but I usually do not, because if you understand all there is to know about mind, you'll know what these practices are without having to hear of them from me. Still, we can discuss these if there is interest, but these kinds of practices are crazy from the ordinary point of view.

 

Having students makes no difference. Being near death makes no difference except it helps one to be more sincere in letting loose. Someone who is not near death still has doubts unless the person is exceptional. Exceptional people don't have to wait to die to realize rainbow body.

 

Oh... ok.

 

 

 

On the contrary. Critical thinking is what eventually melts all the rigid and fallacious conceptual structures. Without critical thinking you lack the tools to do the heavy lifting required to realize the rainbow body.

 

 

"They take copper to be gold. Bound by discursive thought"

-Mahasiddha Saraha the potter.

 

 

The reasons for your arrogance are not beyond yourself. You are responsible for your arrogance, but like a child you refuse to take responsibility.

 

No, what I meant was that the reasons for my confidence is due to lineage beyond myself. The realizations of those that have come before me that I can depend upon to help guide me, both through practice and conceptual elaboration.

 

It was a metaphor. While your confidence comes only from your own private bag of blind tricks you tell yourself is truth. You look at a master, and criticize without direct insight. Damning that which offers you help.

 

 

This is 99.9% bullshit. I'll grant you 0.1% truth for that claim.

 

Nah... I know what I'm talking about. You on the other hand do not. You stand alone, not supported by the mahasiddhas that have come before you even considered spirituality.

 

Anything can lead to harm. Even inaction can lead to harm. Good intentions can lead to harm sometimes.

Sure, if acted on without wisdom.

 

 

Vaj, you know it's personal with you. You know that when I criticize the lineage I am threatening an important part of your personal identity. This is why you react so traumatically. If you really had faith in your lineages, you wouldn't defend them as if lineages were soap bubbles. Of course you know soap bubbles is what they are. They teach you that themselves, if you are willing to pay attention.

 

This right here magnifies for me the assumptive quality in your intellectual musings. I don't have to defend my teachers. They have enough enlightened students and real teachings going around with far more merit in this moment than you could muster in your whole life thus far. I do just want to offer a different perspective from your own as you cause harm steering people away from true lineages and real techniques beyond this intellectual concept pushing that you do. But, I do try to help you get over yourself, but as you might be too far gone, at least some others can read these refutations of your self proclaimed nonsense and get something from them.

 

Please if you want to really learn how to manifest the body of light and if you really want to learn about Rigpa people. Go to true masters like this... Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche Who's two direct teachers attain the Jalus (body of light) as genuine proof of the validity of his teaching lineage. Steer away from new age lineage damning pundits like GIH if you want something more than a nice discussion online.

Edited July 18, 2011 by Vajrahridaya

[thuscomeone]

There are people. You are a person. As a person you experience intentionality in a way that's different from me as a person. Whether or not you are able to see an "intender" within your person is a function of your intent. If you like you don't even have to be a person, but since I am talking to you, you most likely consider yourself to be a person. Finding an intender within your person or failure to find an intender are both imaginary intentional experiences.

 

 

 

There is a reason for this. You're trying to get at something which is not obvious and which resists crass categorization efforts. You lean toward simplistic caricatures and simplifications of truth, and that's unfortunate.

 

 

 

The one who is supposing such things is you and not me. You're the one who always tries to insert words into my mouth. In large part that's the reason for my so-called "obscurantism."

I never put words into your mouth. I'm trying to figure out what in the you know what you're talking about. Everytime I ask you something, you avoid a clear answer. You either can answer or you can't. I'm beginning to think you don't even really know what you're on about.

 

Your ideas of "intent" and "mind" seem to be just that -- ideas, abstract concepts which have little grounding outside of your head. You say, oh well, they resist categorization. I call BS. You can either express what you mean or you can't. If you know in your heart what you believe to be true, you will be able to find words to express it/categorize it clearly.

 

But then some of your posts contain half-truths, so I keep coming back.

 

The truth is very simple. Much more than you are making it out to be. Generally, whenever I encounter posts such as yours, which are, in general, long diatribes, I know that there won't be much wisdom in them. I prefer simplicity.

 

Truth is completely obvious. It's just like looking all around for your keys and then finding them in your pocket.

 

I don't know if you've read "Siddartha" by Herman Hesse, but there is a part in there in which Siddartha meets the Buddha.

 

The Buddha tells Siddartha that he is clever, but warns him not to be too clever.

Edited July 18, 2011 by thuscomeone

[Informer]

That would be subjective idealism, not recognizing interdependent origination/emptiness.

 

It all depends upon how you define liberation. If you think it's just a good inside feeling, then that would not be insight into the nature of self as inter-dependent, but rather that subjective experience is idealized as ultimate. Which it is to a degree, otherwise you wouldn't have the capacity to discern between what increases and deepens insightful joy and what does not, but what gave you the possibility to have this experience to begin with?

 

I would say my mother/father atleast inadvertantly, and the universe, other than that I can't say I know what gave me a possibility, I can only assume at this point.

 

What do you think granted that possibility?

 

Perhaps you could repeat the question differently, I am not sure I understand what you are asking.

Edited July 18, 2011 by Informer

[Vajrahridaya]

When you think I am fake, there is no danger at all. Danger only arises when you think other masters are real.

 

More relatively real than your truck load of manure.

 

 

Rigpa is not physical. Nothing is physical.

 

How can nothing be physical? Nothing is nothing. But, I know what you mean. Everything is physical, and everything is also not physical as well. Simultaneousness!

 

You are taking these things on faith, are you not?

 

No.

 

 

Have you been in the presence of someone who has attained rainbow body?

 

Yes. A famous one, post attainment.

 

No, you have not. Why can I be so certain? Because you don't have the necessary intentionality and mindset to meet such a master. For example you believe rigpa is physical. Secondly you don't understand the mirage-like nature of lineages and you cling to them as if they were your body. In this sentimental state of mind there is very little chance for you to encounter a magical phenomenon like a rainbow body.

 

I don't say rigpa is physical, I'm saying it includes the physical, if you would have actually read what I stated instead of assumed anything like you have above. You really don't know me, nor the depth of my realization. You are quite ignorant to me dear brother, you need help. Genuine help. I've seen far more than you can realize right now based upon the lack of your vision.

 

 

 

I don't have a lineage. I just discuss what I know and if someone learns something, good. If not, that's good too. Don't you think it would be hypocritical of me to criticize lineages and then to have one of my own?

 

It's hypocritical to criticize lineages that have actually attained something you have no idea about, and say that you can teach the same.

 

You are a baboon, swinging from a tree, thinking he has in his hand something more than a tree trunk.

[Vajrahridaya]

I would say my mother/father atleast inadvertantly, and the universe, other than that I can't say I know what gave me a possibility, I can only assume at this point.

 

What do you think granted that possibility?

 

Meditate on it.

[Informer]

Meditate on it.

 

It was nice to run into a wall, I appreciate it. Are you sure it is something knowable?

Edited July 18, 2011 by Informer

[Vajrahridaya]

It was nice to run into a wall, I appreciate it. Are you sure it is something knowable?

 

A wall?

 

Yes, you can know. There are powers of perception that arise through meditation and yogic contemplation that allow you access to higher forms of cognition which transcend the limits of the 5 physical senses.

 

I'm just saying... study the teachings of living and passed on masters, practice their teachings.

[Informer]

Could you please rephrase what you are asking?

[goldisheavy]

You should go study with a real living Master, a master from lineage with teachers who've actually attained the Jalus, talk to them directly and see what they say about all this intellectual rummaging.

 

We can do this the other way around. Have all your so-called "masters" come to me and see what I have to say about all their posturing, anti-intellectualism and secret-keeping.

 

 

It must be integrated into every nuance of one's personal being through visualizations, which may arise spontaneously that illumine the unconscious and the subconscious and physical movements that integrate and ground it's reflection through the physical cells.

 

Nonsense.

 

Ok, who are your Buddhist teachers then? You just read some books and gained some knowledge, thinking you've mastered the perspective?

 

You're trying to situate me within the framework of Buddhism. You're failing. The reason for your repeated failure is that my wisdom is my own and I like Buddhism not because I learn from it, but only because it most closely resembles my own innate wisdom. Do you understand?

 

You have dear fellow. You poor, poor soul.

 

So, your lineage of personally ascertained information and your lineage of personal experience has illumined that fact for us, has it? You poor deluded fellow.

 

 

Wow, how deluded you are by personal pride. It's quite sad. You do have such potential though.

 

 

 

Intellectual musings.

 

Boring.