Plattfform Zin

[Tao99]

Zen Master Hui-neng, generally speaking (paraphrasing) describes Zen in the Platform Sutra as follows: ..

What is practicing Zen ? To practice Zen means to be mentally unperturbed in all outward circumstances, be they good or otherwise, from within Samadhi. To practice Zen means to manifest the emotional imperturbability of the natural mind nature

Edited January 29, 2010 by Tao99

[findley]

Hmm, Daughter 'Zen'. Look at that picture ! She is so fashionable !

 

Even in Taoism, though, there is an over-emphasis on the subtle.

 

In the first chapter of the Tao te ching, there is roughly said:

 

'Rid yourself of desires to observe it's secrets; yet always allow yourself to have desires to observe it's manifestations'

 

I like to say to myself, 'I will have my cake, and eat it to'. -Don't forget to live your life, or you will have it spent facing a goddamn wall!

 

I like to practice out in public places, amongst other people. It pronounces my bodily being, in the reflection of all the people who are trapped in their worldly existence. (if that makes sense...)

 

Thanks, Tao99 ; )

 

Hey--

 

Do you think they see the wall?

[Tao99]

it does look like a cereal box, so sheik!

Edited January 29, 2010 by Tao99

[Magitek]

I don't get it, are you paraphrasing him? If so give why not give us the straight quote!

 

Don't like that picture, why would anyone wear glasses when facing a wall?

 

I don't think Rinzai would like that picture either. From the Zen Teachings of Rinzai:

 

27 . Followers of the Way, when I say that there is no Dharma

outside, the students do not understand and deduce it is necessary

to search within themselves. Then they sit, leaning against a wall, tongue pressed to the upper palate, and remain so

motionless. That is what they take for the patriarchal gate of the

Buddha-Dharma. What a great error! If you take the state of

immovable purity for THIS, you acknowledge ignorance as your

master. An old master said: "To get lost in the depth of the dark

cave, is surely a cause for fear and trembling."

[Tao99]

oh no sorry, i never said this represents all of Zen, or even all of the Platform Sutra. It's just a "taste of tranquility" which is interesting but not nearly the whole of Zen.

 

This is just my take on this small part of of the Platform Sutra, and you shouldn't take it for more then that. It's all just my personal ramblings, based on someone asking about Zen in another thread.

 

However, to clear up any confusion, here's a small part of the Platform Sutra from whence its derived, and link. you're mileage may vary:

 

"Learned Audience, it has been the tradition of our school to take 'Idealessness' as our object, 'Non-objectivity' as our basis, and 'Non-attachment' as our fundamental principle. 'Idea-lessness' means not to be carried away by any particular idea in the exercise of the mental faculty. 'Non-objectivity' means not to be absorbed by objects when in contact with objects. 'Nonattachment' is the characteristic of our Essence of Mind.

 

"

http://www.angelfire.com/realm/bodhisattva...form-sutra.html

Edited January 23, 2010 by Tao99

[Zhuo Ming-Dao]

Don't like that picture, why would anyone wear glasses when facing a wall?

 

I don't think Rinzai would like that picture either. From the Zen Teachings of Rinzai:

 

 

You are right. Of the two major schools of Zen practiced in Japan, Rinzai Zen practitioners face toward the center of the room and Soto Zen practitioners face toward the wall while doing zazen. The reasoning in Rinzai is that you train your mind to be able to accept all things while in zazen so that you can carry the state of clarity into the world. The reasoning behind the Soto practice is that you want to eliminate as much outside distraction as possible in order to perfect your shikantaza.

 

Remember that in both of these forms of zazen, the meditation is done with open eyes, so the question of visual stimulus is very important.

 

In the end, a Rinzai practitioner (like myself) would not dislike it, it is just a question of skillful means.

 

And as for the glasses, I will tell you from personal experience that it is often better to just leave them on. The moment that the bell rings to end the zazen you might have to read from a sutra, get up and do meditative walking, prostration, and so on. The time it takes to take the glasses on and off all the time is not really worth it when you trying to keep up with the fast transitions of monastic life, where idleness is not a virtue.

[findley]

Really??

 

So zen monasticism is not chill, relaxed, and convenient ? Would you be hassled if you just lounged about all day, doing your own thing, whenever you pleased?

 

Strict ? ! ugh . . Why ? ? I think living a normal life on your own would be more conducive to cultivating the primal essence, if that is the case.

 

I wonder if there is a place I could go, where nothing is expected of me other than cultivation. . . and where traditions, methods, and rigid routines do not dominate your worldly existence. Worldly existence is nice! you should not deny it or make it suck !!

[contrivedname!]

one thing that is interesting about hui-neng is that he both existed within the monastic tradition, while at the same time refuting it (or aspects of it). he even went so far as to tell some students that sitting meditation will not help you realize essence of mind (upaya perhaps?). for me, the most interesting part of this sutra are the different situations with various students and the methods hui-neng uses according to their dispositions.

 

 

 

Whether you face the center

Or face the wall

What is it that obscures you original face?

 

 

 

Chris

[Zhuo Ming-Dao]

Really??

 

So zen monasticism is not chill, relaxed, and convenient ? Would you be hassled if you just lounged about all day, doing your own thing, whenever you pleased?

 

Strict ? ! ugh . . Why ? ? I think living a normal life on your own would be more conducive to cultivating the primal essence, if that is the case.

 

I wonder if there is a place I could go, where nothing is expected of me other than cultivation. . . and where traditions, methods, and rigid routines do not dominate your worldly existence. Worldly existence is nice! you should not deny it or make it suck !!

 

Ha! At first I thought you were being sarcastic. This is the nature of all monasticism, be it Buddhist or Taoist or Christian or otherwise. This lifestyle is set up so that the monks and nuns have every minute of everyday throughout the year planed out without any real down time. The Rinzai Zen tradition is designed, in fact, to limit everything, even your amount of sleep (to ~3-4 hours), while the practice itself pushes you into a corner. By having all of your options stripped away and by forcing your mind to stay in single pointed concentration while working over impossible problems (koans), eventually you bring your mind to the breaking point, where you either fall into zen sickness or break free into enlightenment. These are the only options open to you. It is a harsh system, but keep in mind that the model was finally developed and perfected by the samurai caste, and they were not exactly the touchy feely, do-what-feels-good type.

 

Monasticism brings order to your life so that you can devote yourself to your practice. It removes the question of self-discipline and the ever changing whims of desire (in wanting new knowledge, new techniques, etc., without mastering the ones available to you).

 

If anyone is curious about what this lifestyle looks like, read the book Novice to Master: An Ongoing Session in the Extent of My Own Stupidity, by Morinaga Roshi. It is a fascinating, quick read on the life of a modern, awakened Zen master and how the monastic system (and his own perseverance) pushed him to his enlightenment.

 

 

 

What you are interested in, Findley, is the life of the mendicant priest, who wanders from place to place experiencing life and cultivating himself without any attachments to the world around him. Traditionally, though, this lifestyle only worked after you had gained the self-disciple that came with several years of monastic life. When lay people tried to live this lifestyle they tended to just become lazy, homeless vagrants because normal life does not often provide the conditioning of the will necessary to cultivate to such a high degree oneself while immersed in the world.

 

one thing that is interesting about hui-neng is that he both existed within the monastic tradition, while at the same time refuting it (or aspects of it). he even went so far as to tell some students that sitting meditation will not help you realize essence of mind (upaya perhaps?). for me, the most interesting part of this sutra are the different situations with various students and the methods hui-neng uses according to their dispositions.

 

 

 

Whether you face the center

Or face the wall

What is it that obscures you original face?

 

Excellent post! Is that your poem? The play on words is wonderful.

[contrivedname!]

thanks, yeah it is, i just made it up on the spot

[林愛偉]

one thing that is interesting about hui-neng is that he both existed within the monastic tradition, while at the same time refuting it (or aspects of it). he even went so far as to tell some students that sitting meditation will not help you realize essence of mind (upaya perhaps?). for me, the most interesting part of this sutra are the different situations with various students and the methods hui-neng uses according to their dispositions.

Whether you face the center

Or face the wall

What is it that obscures you original face?

 

Chris

 

 

His disciple did say once, to another "learned" high level cultivator, that just sitting there isn't going to do any good for you. (Not an exact quote.) Yet, he said this to have the cultivator get up and meet the Patriarch, to go and further his cultivation. I believe the converesation was something like, What are you doing? I have entered the great stillness. Oh, well, if you have entered the great stillness, how have you gotten out of it? Where did you enter it? If you entered it, then your entering would not be still, for you would have had to enter the stillness. That entering would have made the stillness, no more still.

The conversation was something to that effect. It was to say that even though you may attain states in meditation, if you are thinking you have entered a state you most certainly have not. So, Hui Neng's disciple saw that the man was wasting his time meditating and experiencing states, and advised him to seek proper guidance in cultivation. To go seek out the 6th Patriarch of the Chan school.

 

Given certain conditions, a stanza would be spoken, or a method expounded, but that method may not be for everyone. Patriarch Hui Neng most certainly did not refute the monastic tradition. If that was the case, he would have never went to Nanhua monastery to shave his head and accept the precepts.

 

 

Peace,

Lin

[Tao99]

A Day in the Life of a Modern (Soto) Zen Monk at a Temple in Japan - EmptyMind Films ---

 

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[contrivedname!]

His disciple did say once, to another "learned" high level cultivator, that just sitting there isn't going to do any good for you. (Not an exact quote.) Yet, he said this to have the cultivator get up and meet the Patriarch, to go and further his cultivation. I believe the converesation was something like, What are you doing? I have entered the great stillness. Oh, well, if you have entered the great stillness, how have you gotten out of it? Where did you enter it? If you entered it, then your entering would not be still, for you would have had to enter the stillness. That entering would have made the stillness, no more still.

The conversation was something to that effect. It was to say that even though you may attain states in meditation, if you are thinking you have entered a state you most certainly have not. So, Hui Neng's disciple saw that the man was wasting his time meditating and experiencing states, and advised him to seek proper guidance in cultivation. To go seek out the 6th Patriarch of the Chan school.

 

Given certain conditions, a stanza would be spoken, or a method expounded, but that method may not be for everyone. Patriarch Hui Neng most certainly did not refute the monastic tradition. If that was the case, he would have never went to Nanhua monastery to shave his head and accept the precepts.

Peace,

Lin

 

hi lin,

 

i wasnt thinking about the dude who said he was "entering samadhi" though that is an example of what i meant by referencing upaya, and stating: "for me, the most interesting part of this sutra are the different situations with various students and the methods hui-neng uses according to their dispositions". i was thinking more along the lines of "when it is alive it will sit when it is dead it will lay. a set of stinking bones, how could it establish success" or something to that effect, but there are quite a few instances where he down plays the importance of meditation (perhaps because so many during his time were fixating on this practice). i dont think he was completely refuting monastic tradition in the sense that he was trying to destroy it or subvert it, what i meant was he refuted certain aspects of it according to the situation (some folks may need to be pushed towards monastic life while others should probably steer clear of it, again upaya). so i think we are actually saying close to the same thing .

 

he may have taken precepts, though this doesnt mean he didnt attempt to refute peoples attachment to them, this is a verse he spoke to an assembly:

 

"The Patriarch added, "Learned Audience, those who wish to train themselves (spiritually) may do so at home. It is quite unnecessary for them to stay in monasteries. Those who train themselves at home may be likened unto a native of the East who is kind-hearted, while those who stay in monasteries but neglect their work differ not from a native of the West who is evil in heart. So far as the mind is pure, it is the 'Western Pure Land of one's own Essence of Mind'."

 

Prefect Wei asked, "How should we train ourselves at home? Will you please teach us."

 

The Patriarch replied, "I will give you a 'formless' stanza. If you put its teaching into practice you will be in the same position as those who live with me permanently. On the other hand, if you do not practice it, what progress can you make in the spiritual path, even though you cut your hair and leave home for good (i.e., join the Order)? The stanza reads:--

 

For a fair mind, observation of precepts (Sila) is unnecessary.

For straightforward behavior, practice in Dhyana (contemplation) may be dispensed with.

On the principle of gratefulness, we support our parents and serve them filially.

On the principle of righteousness, the superior and the inferior stand for each other (in time of need).

On the principle of mutual desire to please, the senior and junior are on affectionate terms.

On the principle of forbearance, we do not quarrel even in the midst of a hostile crowd.

If we can persevere till fire can be obtained through rubbing a piece of wood,

Then the red lotus (the Buddha-nature) will shoot out from the black mire (the unenlightened state).

That which is of bitter taste is bound to be good medicine.

That which sounds unpleasant to the ear is certainly frank advice.

By amending our mistakes, we get wisdom.

By defending our faults, we betray an unsound mind.

In our daily life we should always practice altruism,

But Buddhahood is not to be attained by giving away money as charity. Bodhi is to be found within our own mind,

And there is no necessity to look for mysticism from without.

Hearers of this stanza who put its teaching into actual practice

Will find paradise in their very presence."

 

i like cleary's translation a bit better, but cant find that one online

 

What Hui-neng refuted was neither monasticism nor laity

He refuted that which obstructs peoples mind

While obscurations may take many forms

In essence they are of the same root

When the root has been cut, what are the use of myriad methods?

 

IdiotMan

[Sunya]

hey,

 

where did you get that Samadhi equals the Naturel State or Buddha Mind?

 

Samadhi is of Indian origin and it refers to concentrative absorption.

 

A Day in the Life of a Modern (Soto) Zen Monk at a Temple in Japan - EmptyMind Films ---

 

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube-nocookie.com/v/6pllQ_-ZxEA&hl=en&fs=1&rel=0"></param><param'>http://www.youtube-nocookie.com/v/6pllQ_-ZxEA&hl=en&fs=1&rel=0"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube-nocookie.com/v/6pllQ_-ZxEA&hl=en&fs=1&rel=0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

 

what a wonderful video.

i'm really in awe of monks, i don't know why. i think many Westerners would watch that video and think why would anyone want to do that? but I.. feel a connection to that lifestyle. I must have connections with monasticism previous lives. though in this life, I'm not sure if I would do that. but who knows.

[Tao99]

I got this particular usage/level directly from the Platform Sutra, and Japanese Zen in general. Maybe instead of nature I should have said natural mind condition (eg., at moment of birth = Essence of mind, pure or tranquil mind), empty of all personal content and personality ("self/ego"), a condition described as Samadhi.

Edited January 23, 2010 by Tao99

[contrivedname!]

an interesting point is that Thomas Cleary translates Samadhi in platform sutra as Stabilization.

[Tao99]

an interesting point is that Thomas Cleary translates Samadhi in platform sutra as Stabilization.

yep

Edited January 29, 2010 by Tao99

[Tao99]

Empty Mind Films

 

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="

name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="

type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object> Edited January 23, 2010 by Tao99

[Non]

but what if you also in the process call "emptying the mind of good and bad" "good" and being "caught up" in it, as bad?

 

ok.. I undersatnd there's a difference between doing and judging something as good and bad. Ie, it doesn't mean that just because you are not doing it, that you think it's 'bad'.. you just might find it useful for a particular practice.

 

its just... ti seems like they ARE saying that it's bad to label things as good and bad and good not to label things good and bad, which is contradictory.

Edited December 29, 2009 by Non

[Tao99]

closed

Edited January 29, 2010 by Tao99