opendao

These angry masters are faceless but they sure are foulmouthed.

keep trolling, keep lying, keep confirming that every word I said is true about you.

Hehe, one of these two has not updated their sales manual.

 

So which is it? Every one who practices neidan must look young or some may not? This is one confused sales team. But desperate for commission, one can see it;)

"masters" are not "everyone who is practising neidan". It's crystal clear for everybody except blind retarded morons.

I don't know what this Dao really is.

But I think that we could tell if one follows the Dao or not, by the results that he gets.

Right, the question for most of the reasonable people here is what results are signs of the correct practice, and what are not.

I described some traditional approach. People don't like it because no teachers on Facebook meet such criteria 

Why do immortals have to fit into our thoughts of what an immortal's is or should be?

obviously they don't have and will never follow human desires. But immortals should fit into what immortals wrote about immortality, right?

Every legit school of Dao has a lineage of xian-immortals. If the lineage is broken, and today there is no one to meet, then there is a big chance that methods are not correct any more.

so you guys got nothing

 

Schedule:

If you would like to join our classes or you have any questions please send your request to [email protected].

 

Lol, for how much you guys are not selling these for here?

 

so...nothing?

yes. less thinking, more forking over.

Again you missed something important. I'm not surprised though, you definitely is unable to read carefully. Any texts.

Daogong and Dao Shu from Yu Xian Pai school are preparatory methods. Nobody promises that your old fat ass will become just fat again. Nobody says you'll learn it online from immortals. So it looks like you're fooling yourself just to troll others. What are you selling except confusion and geriatric grumbling that all people around are stupid, bad, greedy and so on? If you know nothing and have nothing useful to say, then it's better to keep silence, because obviously your opinion has no value.

Neidan is about immortality. If in the school there are no immortals, then the risk to stay in ever confused troll mode is inevitable. There are 2 limits: learning from an immortal directly, and learning from talkative old charlatans like Taoist Texts.

Obviously between these 2 limits there are a lot of shades of grey: "teachers" who learnt Dao from immortals, but haven't finished and started to teach own schools based on incomplete methods or wrong understanding. Teachers who are in process of learning the initial steps, but the head of the school encourage them to teach some initial methods they are already good at. And many other situations. 

But I really believe that it's impossible to learn Dao without understanding what Dao is about. It's a question of intention, it's a question of choice what to learn, where to go, who to speak, how to read, what to ask and so on.

"If one does not know to which port one is sailing, no wind is favorable" (Seneca)

Daoism teaches us to live within our natural constraints.

It's not the only thing it teaches. And not the most important one.

Between humans and Dao is everything within the constraints.  But there is a difference between living in the Manifest only and trying to live in the Mystery only.  A nice harmonization between the two is recommended.

That's correct, but it's one aspect of the relation. What is another one? There are several places where Lao Zi speaks about it.

In all such nice philosophical discussions there is one big problem: they don't take into account what Daoism teaches about various relations, possible between human and Dao. What are they?

There are a lot of discussions about Daoism, but very rare there is any understanding what Dao is and was for Daoists.

Few quotes from various Daoist texts:

Dao is empty, but things have forms.

Dao is the source of all things.

Dao has no form, it can be given but cannot be taken, it can be gained but cannot be seen.

"The way", "principle" is just one level of understanding, very basic.

For practising Daoists it means more then just a way of practice, but also a substance and final result of the Dao cultivation:

In the Universe the most valuable are Dao and De, the most difficult to receive - human, for humans the most difficult - to receive Dao and De in own body.

How could anyone "reach" "the Dao"?

 

As if we said the "way" of making a sandwich.

 

It's not a "thing", this "way" of sandwich making.

 

How do we reach it?

probably it's impossible to attain Dao until we stop understanding it just as "Way"...

Master Wang Li Ping delivered a paradigm shifting and very potent lesson prior to one of our sessions regarding the immortal fetus practice and the image he drew was identical, minus the small/fine details.  Breath is inextricably linked to consciousness and body/mind process.  What a great image.  Thanks for the blazing reminder.

So Wang Liping teaches that such image with the immortal fetus exiting the body has anything related to the breath, consciousness and body/mind process?

 

We've discussed this in the DDJ sub-area... but I finally came to the opinion to take the words very literally:

 

Bu Ren:  Not Ren... thus, leaving Ren untranslated but which is a hallmark of Confucian thought as humanness or benevolence.

 

Thus:  Not [Enter anything you can conjure]

Bu Ren here means that higher virtue is not based on Ren-Humaness principle. 

Humanness-Ren is how people (should) understand moral and treat each other. So it's a human level. It's a custom. It's a ritual in its core.

In contrast, Bu Ren doesn't mean that there is no morality (=amorality), it means that the highest virtue is based on other principles then Ren.

I am sincerely curious about this -- how old are you, opendao? How old are the teachers in your school? Hundreds of years? Thousands? How many are there at this point?

There are some at the point of what I told before, that's why I told what I told before. Other info is confidential or irrelevant (my age).

And you're not very attentive, I didn't tell there are any reasons to live very long (in this world). There are more pleasant things to do...

I wrote that sick, old and dying teachers don't know Dao.

But "young looking old alchemist" is a hint that something is right.

Sorry, no pictures and any proofs are not a subject of the open forum. Just because it's the way it is. None of the immortals will chase you with documents dated 1765 to get your attention 

I like your wu 武 approach. It is firm and stable. It attempts to keep things in their correct positions.

 

It also leads to contention (䷅), and people follow you around just to poke at your authoritarianism, like lichen growing on a cliff face. Naturally ䷅ is in effect in the cantong qi cycle now - day 2 of the new moon, hexagrams 5 and 6.

 

Zhuangzi speaks on this type of thing frequently. There is no absolute right or wrong. Everything may be perceived as right or wrong from some perspective. After every yang there is yin, after every yin there is yang. So expressing an absolute right or wrong-ness will usually call forth the polarity.

 

However great a teacher is, there are students they will not be able to reach. However complete a school may be, it has yet to grow and change. However assured one's position is, stating it may still cause more harm than good. Even as I do here. What do I really know in the end?

This is your position based on your understanding and experience. Teachers thinks differently based on different position and experience. So for you true words bring more harm, for them - more good. Right and wrong don't depend on the perspective for them. Yijing for them is not a book of personal excuses to "wisely" be weak. And so on. Maybe because previous generations wasn't scary to tell the truth?

I think it was Joseph Needham who did a reconstruction of an hypothetical Chinese original for the tabula smaragdina.

Yes, it sounded very Chinese for him... not only for him though. Even if it's just a coincidence, it shows parallels very good.

I can not read the chinese text in the second image. But I can read the imagery, the greek, the hebrew, the latin on the first. The western image has a load of cosmological symbolism. You can trace all them back, through greek alchemists from late antiquity, to even older times when the word "alchemy" didn't even exist.

 

I you follow the clues, that are very well hiddden in plain sight, you'll find yourself reading a greek poem advising to follow the Dao, and talking about many other things you'll find daoists parallels with.

Nice. The alchemy everywhere was based on the same principles. It looks like it was one art long long time ago in the past... 

What greek poem?

Sulphur, mercury and salt are three things...both images show the same thing

No, it's not the same, though it's about the same process. But the phases are different, and accents are different.

Sun, Moon and Fetus, which is Xing + Ming = Daotai in Daoist tradition.

On Daoist picture the characters are Jing - Qi - Shen, it's a picture of San Bao: 3 treasures.

anyway, it's irrelevant: there is nothing physical in Neidan.

Thank you for the clarification. I think many of us here get caught up on absolutes, either in goals or in methods, while in reality there are many shades and layers.

 

It is nice to hear there may be schools that retain much of the completeness.

 

I think it is tricky though. When one hears "this school is complete, while most others are not" it can create a hierarchy in people's minds. Of course that is not the emphasis here.

so what do you suggest if it is the case? Lie and say that other schools are complete and good?

Twist and say "every school has something to offer"?

Say nothing and hide in mountains?

Sages prefer to tell truth, if it creates wrong associations for wrong people, then sages look at that as on something unavoidable. They care more about good people. Good people see that the things are not equal, and differentiate clearly. 

Jing is not a physical thing, I think you will find it is. Jing is the physical substance from which the neidan tradition proceeds.

No. Jing used in Neidan is not a physical substance. And it is of the same kind as the Spirit-Shen and Dao at the end. 

If Jing is a physical substance, then it's affected by duality, corrupted, not pure, not a "treasure-Bao" and cannot be used in the alchemy at all.

Search for "false elixir" and "sexual Jing" to get the difference.

In western alchemy both the external and internal elixirs are physical things.

 

What is the difference between this image of sun and moon joining in the abdominal area 

http://36.media.tumblr.com/571274f8f2ba7aecc2c5349b3f55ede0/tumblr_n69mx6EOBa1rtynt1o1_1280.jpg

 

And this image

http://xingshenzhuang.ro/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/meditazionetaoista.jpg

The difference is in 2 merging into one and 3 joining on Daoist picture. The idea is similar, but none of the pictures show any physical things.

East and West but both talking about the same thing, only difference is that Western Alchemy does not talk about Dao so its clear dao has nothing to do with what they are searching for.

Tabula Smaragdina

Even in Waidan text Jindan is the fine powder scraped from the lid of the crucible, explain how you can scrape the Dao from the lid of a crucible and make pills from it?

I'm speaking solely about Neidan, where Jindan term is widely used.

But the waidan method is similar, ingestion of the powder has the same effect as internal Dao cultivation. Again, it's a popular idea in Daoist texts in schools that have all 3 methods of cultivation.

I get the sense that it is more common for people to focus on the spiritual stages of alchemy. Perhaps with the goal of spiritual freedom. Or perhaps these stages are more accessible for learning and guidance. I believe it has been said that the ming methods are more hidden, or perhaps have been lost in the past. As in ming 性 and xing 命.

 

It does seem curious that, while quite healthy, many masters do still appear to be under the influence of aging. It also is written that one allows one's "incense stick" to run its course, "ascending" to the realms beyond after shedding one's physical shell. In this sense I wonder if the goal for alchemy needs to include complete reversal of the ming to a youthful state, or just enough replenishment and refinement of the ming for the needs of completing the elixir. It would appear that many of the side-effects of alchemy include unlocking any number of siddhis, which of course are not the point. Does replenishing the skin to the state where it feels newly born and smells like flower blossoms assist in the goal of alchemy? Does scar-tissue prevent immortal ascension? I doubt one's hair color influences creating the jindan directly, but is it possible for one to have enough of what could replenish the hair color in order to create the jindan, without having been circulated in the proper ways necessary to return the hair color? Or perhaps it is related to how far one is able to refine their elixir?

 

So I am curious - is reclaiming youth in the fullest sense necessary, or does it depend on where one's goal is set? Though I doubt any of us here can claim any authority on this subject.

 

Personally I'm not one for shortcuts. If one is humble and sincere, one will find what one needs and one's destiny will come into alignment. In some cases it might take longer (lifetimes) than others, but that is no reason to stray from the dao.

There are different achievements in Dao cultivation. Depending when person starts, and what is the destiny, probably only some partial results are possible. The speech was about high level masters and how not to be fooled by charlatans, who sell us just "spiritual methods" because they have nothing else to offer. The full system is almost lost everywhere, water downed, almost extinct, but it's not a reason to stop looking for the complete truth.

Yes, it's possible to speed up some levels, even die on some levels to continue in new life, but it's not considered as a pure method, but as an incomplete method. Ancient Dao was very precise in its technology, and the condition of skin or hairs don't depend on the goal you set, but solely on the method you practice. That's how it's explained in a school, where such results exist, so probably it has some authority to share.

Like I said my main study has been western Alchemy, I have only dabbled in a few Chinese text but its clear the waidan tradition is exactly the same as western alchemy. There are only very small differences but the theory behind it is the same. Western alchemists often had no teacher, they have a few old books they read over and over, they pray to God to enlighten them...and one day they get their wish.

Yes, I heard this phrase about Western alchemists many times... Still waiting for any results compared even to Waidan... Keep us informed, but don't rush to make parallels between 2 teachings you only read books about.

Real alchemy is a secret thing anyway, anyone who tells you they will openly teach it doesn't know it.

it's true. But it's just an excuse to not searching.

There may be some confusion here between a Taoist and an Alchemists.

 

A Taoist is searching for the no-thing (the Dao)

 

An Alchemist is searching for something (the Jindan)

 

They are both searching but not for the same thing, many people are searching for different things.

no, there is no such confusion. Great Dao is Jindan: http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/40441-waidan-and-early-neidan-vs-later-neidan/?p=673423

"Empty yourself of everything.

Let the mind rest at peace.

The ten thousand things rise and fall while the Self watches their return.

They grow and flourish and then return to the source.

Returning to the source is stillness, which is the way of nature.

The way of nature is unchanging.

Knowing constancy is insight.

Not knowing constancy leads to disaster.

Knowing constancy, the mind is open.

With an open mind, you will be openhearted.

Being openhearted, you will act royally.

Being royal, you will attain the divine.

Being divine, you will be at one with the Tao.

Being at one with the Tao is eternal.

And though the body dies, the Tao will never pass away."

 

Above is what is meant to attain the Dao, notice it says "And though the body dies, the Tao will never pass away". The goal of attaining Dao and Alchemy are not the same. The Alchemists goal is to attain the medicine, the jindan, the Taoist wants to attain the emptiness of the dao...two different goals. One is the goal of alchemy the other is the goal of Taoist yoga/meditation.

The phrase describes the same result as what Neidan texts describe as tianxian.

Master of the Jindan tradition teach that early Daoism didn't imply that merging with Dao is equal to "destruction, dissolution into nothingness" as you wrote elsewhere.

And alive masters of the Jindan tradition (The School of Great Dao of the Golden Elixir of Wu Chongxu and Liu Hua Yang) teach that the last stage of the alchemy is called 练虚合道 - "melting of emptiness and unity to the Dao".

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Same about elixir as a "physical thing". 

You wrote: "The idea that either of them is trying to convert a physical thing into a non physical thing eg chi is incorrect."

It's incorrect, right. Neidan doesn't work with physical substances on any level.

You: "I meant is that the Jindan the naidan practitioner is trying to brew within himself is a physical thing just like the elixir the waidan practitioner is trying to make."

This is not correct. Jindan is not a physical thing, and its ingredients are not physical either, but exactly what you are trying to say is not Jindan: xiantian jing-qi-shen.

What Neidan texts you base your strange opinions on?

I have studied alchemy for many years, mostly western alchemy and the old text. Because of that I know that most of these modern books which claim to teach alchemy are pure rubbish, they haven't got a clue. You also have people teaching alchemy classes who dont know what alchemy is themselves. In our modern times alchemists are so rare there are probably not more then a few on the whole planet so your chances of meeting one is practically zero.

so you haven't met but think that by books you can become one?

I have sad news for you: in the history of Neidan / Jindan / Dao cultivation there was no one who could do that.

Many tried, many are trying now, but it's all waste of time.

No teacher with results - no school producing such results. Time is yours.

And what about ethic ? There is also a big difference between willing to live long and healthy for one's own benefits of having a good and full life and wanting to go beyond mortality in order to fulfill a cosmic role.

 

Being a good human is a good thing, many do not even achieve that. Following a boddhisattvic path is a different thing. It depends on whom sake we practice for. Us or all sentient beings. (I don't have the terms to express this in daoist terms, buddhists words will have to do the trick )

really good point. The inner sincere willingness to help people is the "virtue"-De necessary to find a teacher and attain Dao. And Buddhist words are good, many Daoist masters used them in this context. 

I don't usually like to quote myself, but I feel it has more sense to write it here:

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we need to define, what is happiness really?

Buddhism says directly: "no struggling". So the idea is to save all beings out of struggling.

Daoism is more moderate about it, but in Dao De Jing the idea is similar: the king can save its people through own Dao cultivation, meaning he has to achieve the level when his own De saves people out of struggling.

The same idea is in Orthodox Christianity: "Save yourself, and thousands will be saved around you" (Seraphim of Sarov).

How it can be possible? The answer is simple: the Dao cultivation grows De and makes it miraculous. That's the only way to help people and make them really happy.

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We've discussed the meaning of De and "virtue" somewhere. That's how the ethics and De are really connected.