opendao

it is true that i have no inclination to go back and dig thru old posts to prove my point. if you remember our last exchange of messages, it was the same thing; i watched you insult a new member here (she no longer posts here and i cant say that you ran her off the board) i dont follow your posts but for some reason when i do, either by unlikely coincidence or whatever, i watch you insult members here and i will always speak up about that. otherwise i leave you alone. it isnt that i am defending vitali's school, i have no experience with it. i dont like seeing schools or members attacked and insulted is what i am trying to get across to you. anyways i said my piece fwiw, take it or leave it

Thanks not to hide now as in previous time.

I understand what you're talking about but you really didn't follow what that lady wrote (and she disappeared about a few months after that conversation, showing her real intentions, you need to figure it out first before making any conclusions and accusing me personally). So it seems you jump in without really understanding the context.

Same as your friend Aetherous: "It demonstrates a lack of virtue to disparage other traditions."

Then he started to insult me and the school I'm learning in. But in my article about Learning from Immortals there is not a single word about "other traditions". Moreover, no words about Wu-Liu Pai, so the word "other" has no any sense... And no any comparison or even hidden thoughts that "our school is unique"... However he can insult and tell that I have no virtue, salesman, doing "sleazy marketing", do "false advertising" etc without even bothering to prove. And you zerotao did like it...

Also, I heard many times some obvious insults to me personally just because I told some things that are against somebody's worldview or theories they keen on (like in the beginning, various qigong vs alchemy threads, GrandmasterP etc), and after every single post now we can see an evident trolling from Taoist Texts ("marketing meme" at least).

So if you really against insulting, trolling and want to play a role of a police officer here, then maybe it has sense to figure out what's happening first... 

I see there is a lot of confusion about Wu-Liu Pai or me personally, that people didn't want to discuss for years. That's why I'm answering all that. But maybe you guys are tired and on the Daoist forum there is a small chance to talk about Daoism and the questions raised in the article?

Instead of teaching me what to do, just do it by yourself, it'll be the best example for many, including myself. Hope for understanding. Cheers.

well relationship is a big word. It was more of a one-night stand, when she started asking for more money i left.

your humour is so recognisable, dear arhont.

 

-You assert that I'm a liar, that your school is legitimate while others are not...I assert that when you point your finger there are three pointing back at you. My reason for responding is your unacceptable attitude...unlike you, I'm not selling anything or representing any school.

 

So basically just emotions and willingness to teach? No probs then, but it doesn't make your words valid anyhow.

Last question: did you inform anyone about your health issues and concerns?

seems like you are resorting to one of your old tactics, to insult  members here and do it dismissively as you have done numerous times since your arrival on this forum. another tactic you use frequently is to say that some member said things that they never said, you use this tactic to take the conversation to where you want it to go. these tactics of yours, pushing a false narrative by posting someone said things they never did 

There are no proves, and you know that. In general, I carefully weight words before putting them here or elsewhere. If I told something you don't like - argument. Last time you couldn't, because it's impossible to map XYP's theory to Daoist classics. But I had no any intention to insult you or anybody personal. And I respect people who stopped spreading false views, as you did. However, I don't like false schools like Vitalii's zhen dao, they brainwash people and it's obvious. You have an ability to see it and think critical, so it looks like you just have personal offences which I tend to apologise, you were a good man on a wrong side of things.

I've called for you to be banned, opendao. You don't have my permission to post private emails in a public forum.

I also don't like what you do, but you have a freedom to say what you say.

I removed that part for now just in respect of who you used to be.

I do not know if I can exact share personal experiences of those students and results and there is many reasons for that. As a trust, I would not like to those people to portray me as person who brags about things, secondly I can say whatever I like and the only thing you have to either believe me or disbelief me which also have no any value to the true understanding of those things. The best is to meet those people personally and then pass the judgement. and yes wu liu pai have very specific way till you need pass to go into higher teachings. Those daogongs and shengongs are like cleaning the temple and washing the windows, at first you do not feel or do not see any value of that as we are not living in traditional chinese world but western materialistic "quick everything" world so we do not understand meaning why we should do that - like in my school I often questioned why I need this stupid math or this and that? Only if you mature enough to understand those things they started to have meaning. So if you would like to know and I guess you know Chinese and seem more knowledgeable then I'm you should have no problem to get into contact with such students and masters of lineages (travel to white cloud temple). They are very approachable if you have right attitude and respect towards them but forget about learning methods. I waited 3 months before learning two basic ming-xing methods from long men pai with many talks and stuff like this before being accepted to small things or to know a little more. Many people want to learn those methods but they go on, brag how great they are and look down on other people and teachers. In the book "At the left hand of the god" which is just about yogic/hindu cultivation you have perfect example of this when the guy learned him rare methods of vajroli and then he would just puff gone, not giving credits, use people and their money etc. Many people think "Oh i would do that" but when you started getting into knowledge and litter power here and there you can easily switch sides without regrets without strong foundation. That why most schools cultivate compassion, respect and heart matters first as the "feeling" of goodness towards people and ourselves is needed feeling which fills up the place for egoistic need of power and dominate over others for feeling of fulfillment. Sorry if that sounds as missing sharing the results of those people but I'm not feeling right doing it on public forum - especially if it's not that hard to reach out to those people in those days.

very well put together. Obviously traditional Chinese approach is different from western, esp approach in united states. And as I told before it proved its efficiency. Let's don't forget that in the west there was alchemy, "european alchemy", and where it is now? So for all students we clearly state: real alchemy is a long process, a lot of challenges on the way, don't expect to get it fast and so on. But people tend to skip this part, thinking they are special, talented or they have a lot of quick alternatives... Human nature, it is so.

I think one result is precisely that. 

Even if we are beginners we learnt a lot about traditional understanding of daoism (in contrast with the personal approach that is widespread in the West where people with only a superficial reading of the Daodejing teaches daoism).

So, after practicising and some discussions I think that the new students are able to recognize (at least to some extent) the alchemical tradition either in Daoism or in others paths.

And this is no small achievement in a field in which everyone thinks he has the right to spread versions of schools tottally divorced of their source and aims.

yes, that's the goal and so far it works fine: those who are able, they start to research deeper. For many people the main obstacle is that they even don't know that some things exist. So they don't try to pursue them.

Hmm. Well, the back-and-forth comments aside, I am still wondering how the methods work.

 

They have been described as balancing post-heaven in order to cultivate pre-heaven energy/resources. I thought that was what most forms of qigong/neigong had done. With the Taoist Yoga, we balance the post-heaven energy with the quick-fire methods that are meant to refine generative force by circulating it in the microcosmic orbit. There are a prescribed number of rotations that seem to have celestial significance.

 

(I don't know any of the specifics on that point, but the 36 or 365 turns seem like they are meant to basically counteract the type of unpackaging of energy that can take place in a day. Likewise, it seems to aim to reverse the downward cycling so that you are a day or so ahead with refinement each time you do the practice and, with this, you build up refined energy so as to smooth the post-heavenly energy system).

 

Granted, this will fill and stabilize the physical and post-heavenly level of functioning and does not constitute full transmutation. But, after this is established, there is also the selectively reversed cycling so as to purify with the slow fires. It is described as raising positive fire and lowering negative fire (these were generated during the microcosmic orbiting) and it works to further refine the post-heavenly so as to approach the pre-heavenly.

 

Now, I am slightly confused. It was described (by you) that Taoist Yoga will will burn pre-heavenly to preserve post-heavenly. I don't quite see how it burns pre-heavenly. Not unless the pre-heavenly is somehow engaged when "the light is turned around" and the gaze is inward. Then again, since this is done so that the faculty of the third eye can be used to move and refine the body's resources, I don't know what resources it might require in order to do what it does.

 

But, all of this aside, if the alchemical methods of the Wuliu Pai are unique and unlike any of the other schools out there, how is the direct pre-heavenly cultivation engaged? Just going from the Taoist Yoga works (and the topical explanation that I had read), it doesn't seem like it is that different.

good questions. Can you put them somewhere else (there are some WLP related threads, for example), because in this thread we have a lot of off-topics already? Thanks.

I'm confused about this marketing meme Taoist Texts keep talking about viz Daode school. Personally I dont see it. But maybe I'm missing something? 

Looking back at my paypal receipts, it was actually a number of months that I trained with these guys. 2-3/2015, 6/15, then 9-11/2015. This salesman here said I "failed"...in actuality, I passed (there were actually "tests" to enter the yuxianpai training), but withdrew due to having poor results both from daogong and especially shengong.

The sales tactic during the training was definitely one of trying to keep getting monthly payments. Daogong training was supposed to take one month at most, but it was drawn out 2-3 months...this was entirely due to the teachers giving out further practices slowly, or teaching slowly (feeling the need to refine basic practices), and not due to any student's inability to learn or perform well enough. I reluctantly continued past one month, despite the false advertising...then when negative results came on more strongly, withdrew.

 

 

The stick in this picture is the admonition that all other schools are false, that one's health can only be improved with this one Russian school's teachings, etc...the carrot just out of reach are the promised results (which no one is even clear about).

first of all, we never told that "all other schools are false" and "one's health can only be improved with this one Russian school's teachings". So it's just statements out of nothing. 

Second, the school is legit and students, who didn't fail initial challenges, did get very good results in improving their health, so out of few dozens we had only 2 people left due inability to learn (health issues, not because of our practice, but because of their previous practices or lack of healthy life style). Few people stopped for various reasons, including doubts, but then decided to resume.

Obviously you failed to understand some basic things and failed to get results from the practice. That's what I'm telling about.

Even the simple fact that Daogong needs 2-3 years to master. That's why its teaching slowly online, however in the beginning we tried as in regular groups - results were very poor from our standard. We're very keen on achieving the initial balance with this practice first, based on our teaching experience. 

As I told you lied about "false advertising". Now you're lying about reasons of leaving. This from your email, in Sep 2015, when you decided to leave:

[personal email removed by request of Aetherous, however I''ll post it if he won't applogize for misleading statements he made]

Obviously you're lying now about health issues here on forum, because you have a reason, while in the email you told the truth, because you had no reasons to lie. Shame? Ethics? Truth? No, Aetherous has no interest it that. Next time you're confused or don't understand something: ask and don't disgrace your name by false statements without any support.

This is what the shell game operators say:  'Dude you quit after the first round! Don't be a quitter! Play more, you will win!"

arhont, I know that's what you hear every month, so definitely you know better about miserable life of shallow people who lie even to themselves.

What are the results specifically? 

just list everything you don't have dear arhont, including your inability to translate chinese texts 

I am interested in and read about the visual (vision) signs of the development of yangshen.

If I understand correctly, the practitioner actually sees the yangshen develop.

He sees a golden light which then accumulates and grows into the form of a human body of golden light.

In case that the practitioner didn't cultivate Ming, the light and the developing body of light he sees are not golden but white (or silver), which means that he develops a yinshen, which is not desirable.

Is that correct?

Golden light, "aura", "nimbus", is a sign, visible by other people (no special skills required), when Yangshen returns to the body. So it's one visible result of Yangshen. With Yinshen there is no golden aura. Good start )) But what's a chance to see such event? What are requirements for Yangshen to exit? Where it's usually done?

The link contains a lot of critique but it doesn't open a gateway to suggest another better kind of learning process.

 

When I read this diatribe, my heart shuts down. That's all I need to know.

 

The most evident result that someone is part of a "true lineage" is that they have transcended these petty divisions and are a lot more in their yuanshen heart space.

ok, at least something about results... Can you provide the source of such definition?

And about "better kind of learning process": can you share any example of such "gateway"? It would be very interesting to hear about results of it as well.

Criticism of false views is a traditional way to teach (see classics). The fact the Tradition is alive proves that the way is correct. If there is no distinguish between false and true, then there is no way to find a Teacher to learn "from heart-to-heart". Not many people can distinguish without critical thinking, so the major way is through explanations.

Could you explain how "visible" or "demonstrable results" concerning these two factors

look like or can be demonstrated or experienced?

I'd prefer if people can elaborate it by studying texts... There are physical signs, some of them are known only by students, others sound so fantastic that I prefer not to write about them here... But even in English translations they are not hard to find. Please try, I'll help.

I know Wu Liu Pai is legit lineage. First thing I saw their "mysterious" teacher Dymitri. Second I know students who have great results and attaining high stages. (like human immortal under Dimitri) All their students are very legitimate people and do not share their methods to public. Most of them are pretty well spoken and pretty well cultivated from basic steps. So they are definitely real school based on my research on Dao schools (which I'm actually seeking to click-in). The cons of this school that it's pretty traditional and you can not jump in into alchemy without doing their daogong (which is alchemical qigong) and you need to follow laid up path - this can be pro or con depends of person character. You need to learn Russian really and be have real De in the heart. They want pass methods to the true students and highest teachings to people but you need to be 'that' person how have good qualities. I would say this school is very elite. Like Harvard or Yale of the regular schools so obviously other will be looked a little down spreading their (false or so called false) teachings - which sometimes can be reasonable as we have control fake doctors but we do not have control in fake school. They are part of 白雲觀 so anybody who claim this school is false just shows that sadly have no idea about Daoism besides personal judgement. I really like to read Wu Liu Pai materials. Criticism of other schools is important to bring what is the best out of them. I'm just researcher on lineages but I can tell this one is definitely most authentic. If I would have more money/knowing russian I would definitely jump into this school. skype sessions are also pretty con because those things you can learn on video (like daogong) etc. The only thing I can say that this school need better management in general. Rather the build walls I would build bridges and trust other people little more so people can start with alchemical methods without worry. All the best for Wu Liu Pai.

Thanks. I really see a lot of efforts made to know about us (yeah, it's hard, I know  ).

Good luck in your search and feel free to ask questions: we're planning to provide more materials, but prefer to focus on the practice, teaching students and research, so when we see some inquiry - we react. If nobody is interested, then there are a lot of things to do. Obviously 100000+ followers are not in our agenda, so for now we have a good small structure where people can learn. Yes, slowly and steady, starting with basics. But they can do it remotely and without learning Russian.

I really suggest do no underestimate the preparatory methods (Daogong and Yuxianpai's practices) - they can help ordinary people to get a good destiny to learn the alchemy. In any traditional School !!! And they are very good to fix various health issues too. Daogong cannot be named "alchemical qigong", but its internal mechanism is based on the alchemical approach and knowledge, not on Qigong. So there are important differences.

I never mentioned 'Daoism'.  Dao is infinite paths... I mentioned paths. 

And I mentioned other Traditions as well, where correct Method exists or has been at some point in time....

not to Dawei, but in general:

Do you think our School haven't elaborated all that? Again:

There is a Tradition of the Alchemy. The roots of it are very ancient, before China and Egypt. But historically mostly it was preserved in China. We know a few Schools in China who has preserved such methods. We know some Schools that preserved less efficient and not so ancient methods. We know some other Traditions in other countries. But all of them share the same methodology and have the same results.

Yes, Wu-Liu Pai is one in this list, and it's possible to get personal results. But there is no way to read it as we are the only true school. There others and I'd be happy if you can find more, and I'm pretty sure that different people need different schools. But results are important, so not every school is worth trying.

What I said stands.

 

Some of us don't appreciate sleazy, con-artist marketing tactics at this forum, which include saying that everything else out there is fraudulent except (what a coincidence) your school, which (what a coincidence) has a hefty price tag. Having had a tiny bit of experience in your school, learning some of daogong and shengong, I am assured that the glorious advertising and promotion is false. It's just another school which does its own unique thing. If people like it, good for them.

 

Enough with the condescension toward other traditions, which you have no experience in.

So emotional... Are you in a good health? Those students who've started with you are much more balanced now... 

Just a coincidence, they continue, but you failed after a month. 

About your accusations. So you say that our "promotions and advertising" are false. What did we promise to you and didn't do?

Second. I have no interest in any marketing. School's abilities to take new students are limited, and the number of perspective students is not much higher... The reason I'm writing is different, however you're so tired then cannot see anything else. Maybe because in your culture there is nothing else? 

Now imagine if you know a TCM doctor, who has invented a new energy meridian, trying to heal say cancer, but there is no result.

Moreover, such a charlatan trying to brainwash you, that the sickness is not a sickness, but a sign of fortune or "it'll gone on its own".

Do you need to learn his obviously fake method, or it's enough to see that there is no result?

And if you see a harm out of such method, do you need to go an try it on yourself first?

Or maybe it's better to treat it as a crime and inform people? So let me inform people.

If you prefer not to listen, you're tired, boring or whatever - then just ignore and feel free to try as much schools as possible. Maybe in 1001 you'll get a success, who knows...

But telling lies is not virtuous at all, so it's weird to hear such things from you about people who respected your willingness to learn and helped as much as possible. Have a good health.

Retracted

Why? It's an important thing to understand, why in Daoism it looks so for you, while in Buddhism it looks different for you... But if retracted then retracted. Maybe it's not a proper time yet. Cheers.

I'm not sure if you already said it before, but what are the demonstrable results in your school that you speak of?

It was discussed a few times here and there... Shortly speaking, yangshen and tianxian. 

Can you?

It's not so easy to find someone who has visual signs of achievements. Basically, it's as hard as to find a true Teacher.

I've seen some interesting things, for me it's important that other know such things exist, so they can research further.

Again, no criticism, I'd love to see discussions on it, criticism free on all ends.   I think it can be very instructive to everyone to know how rigorous it is, ie how long daily sitting lasts.  Seemingly little things like breathwork during meditation.  Cultural things, how it interprets Buddhism and any unusual beliefs that add to cultivation in unique ways. 

Probably later. Let's come to some understanding about results first and respond to critics 

for thelerner:

Feel free to criticise Wu-Liu Pai as being fake, people desperately have been trying that for 15 years   But there is a simple fact: results in the School and its western branch are good enough to be sure to say what works and what not. And we're open for any critical approach from hard-to-find people with similar or greater results.

for Dawei: you have an illusion of alternatives in Daoism, but long term practical researches show that there are no "other systems": or you understand the Tradition and get results, or you are sideways. There are a few Schools in Daoist Tradition, some in Chan Buddhism, some in other parts of the world, so it's not limited to one school. But the Method is the same. And Results are the same. So when "other systems" don't follow the methodology and don't get the milestone results, they are obviously out of the Tradition. Even if they resonate with your energy, it doesn't mean they have any value. Especially for newbies here...

for Aetherous:

Disparage other Traditions shows obviously lack of good, but telling truth about fake homemade "esoteric systems" is what all great Teachers in the Daoist Tradition did. As a westerner you don't like it, and I can understand why, but it's just a part of our cultural code. All Traditions are based on the ancient cultural code, it has a practical sense. Keyword is "sincerity", try to see from this angle.

~~~~ ADMIN NOTICE ~~~~

 

We can disagree but your ever-present desire to insult other's traditions/practice/path veers far from the kind of exchange we would otherwise welcome at TDB. 

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

So you think that by allowing the insults of the Daoist tradition and by supporting those, who intentionally do that all the time, it's possible to make TDB better? No surprise after a few years here, but still sad to read that...

Because to lie about the teaching is the same as insulting it.

To twist sacred texts to get fame and promote own ego is insulting for all the real Dao followers.

To have no arguments and fool people about Dao is insulting for all its practitioners as well.

But I'm happy that the words of Liu Huayang did scratch something in you, because my only desire was to bring a small glance of the traditional Daoism at TDB, as an alternative to various forged and false teachings. And I know for sure many people caught that glance, and I really respect them for that, whatever way or school they follow. Maybe somebody could do it more peaceful, but so far nobody would do it....

Thank for all participants for a nice discussion. I learnt a lot, and hopefully I gave you some food for thoughts as well.

---------------------------------------------

Last thing, for Marblehead:

In Buddhism the Dharma is the same as in Dao. As in all other true Traditions.

The End