opendao

At first, a person needs to learn how to work with [Post-Heaven] Qi, because if one doesn't feel and work with [Post-Heaven] Qi, there is no way for one to do it with [Pre-Heaven] Qi."

Therefore, at first people learn:

- basic Qigong,

- basic breathing techniques,

- Dao Yin and other methods, which can help to improve the circulation of Qi,

- methods for accumulation of usual [Post-Heaven] Qi,

 

and then:

- method of transformation from usual dantian into alchemical dantian;

- how to make dantian integral and structurised;

- method, which can help to find and feel original [Pre-Heaven] Qi etc.

sorry, but no, it is written differently:

1. ”Building the foundation” [筑基]:

- basic Qigong,

- basic breathing techniques,

- Dao Yin and other methods, which can help to improve the circulation of Qi.

- methods for accumulation of usual [Post-Heaven] Qi.

 

2. Inner Alchemy:

- method of transformation from usual dantian into alchemical dantian;

- how to make dantian integral and structurised;

- method, which can help to find and feel original [Pre-Heaven] Qi etc.

So there are only Post Heaven methods in 筑基, and very strange things in Inner Alchemy (I can return to them later).

That's just what I mentioned: you use Neidan stage and terminology but give only Post-Heaven methods.

Yes that is a good approach. I just gave everyone a fair warning not to get into a fight.

ok, got it.

I tried my best and sum up it here: http://thetaobums.com/topic/32430-neidan-vs-qigong/

Some people misunderstood classic texts and start to build their own systems, based on false assumptions. It leads to a very important issue, discussed many times in the Daoist books: Neidan (Inner Alchemy) vs Qigong (or similar practices with many different names).

The main difference between these two is that they work with absolutely different substances.

Neidan works with Yuan (Primordial) Jing, Qi and Shen

Qigong works with Post-Heaven Jing, Qi and Shen.

Qigong methods are well known: standing and sitting meditation, dynamic exercises, Dao Yin, various work with imagination. There are many books and video about it.

Neidan methods are kept in secret. It creates a false illusion that it's possible to use Qigong-like exercises to get the results, described in Neidan books.

For example, let's discuss the first stage, Building the Foundation. At this stage in Neidan, in spite of the school, students restore Yuan Jing, using special, Xian Tian (Pre-Heaven) based methods. To understand that, you need to be accepted as an indoor student in any orthodox school, that preserved methods to restore Jing.

Let's see now how Qigong practioners understand the Neidan texts:

 

Zhang San Feng said: 凝神调息，调息凝神, 八个字，就是下手工夫 - "Concentrate the Shen [spirit] and regulate and harmonize the breath, regulate and harmonize the breath and concentrate the Shen is the first step to Gong Fu [mastership]."

Any Neidan practioner can understand, based on the experience, that Zhang Sanfeng couldn't mean here that somebody needs to use "regulate and harmonize the breath" as the method. Because there are explicit warnings against that. And we see that nowhere in the text Zhang Sanfeng writes about HOW, and using what methods, somebody is supposed to regulate the breath. From the practice we know that Neidan methods regulate the breath as a post result. And that the key to understand this part.

 

存心者，坚固城郭，不使房屋倒坍，卽筑基也 - "Preserving the heart-mind means, construction and strengthening of the city walls, so houses will not collapse, this is Building the foundation."

This is used as a prove that Building the Foundation phase has Qigong-like method, described as "Preserving the heart-mind". Again, knowing what this stage is about, by experiencing it directly, we are able to understand that "preserving the heart mind" is a result of the stage, but not a practice.

Yes not being insulting is a skill I would very much appreciate. Having just had a similiar school vs. school here I'm going to give you a fair warning that as a warden I'm in a trigger happy mood for recommending such posts to be moved to the pit.

I don't see here any school vs school approach. There is a theory A and theory B. One is about using Houtian methods at Building the Foundation stage. Theory B is against it. I gave my support to theory B, my opponent made his proves to theory A. Any probs here?

Anybody is free to join and tell his/her opinion based on personal understanding, texts knowledge, experience etc.

You are convinced your school has the right interpretation but here on TTB no school is given preference. If you wish to represent your school here why don't you start your own thread to introduce your school instead of attacking other schools?

I'm pointing out some issues with the common, not specific to any particular school, theory of Neidan. And it's more fair, because then such problematic issues can be discussed in a proper context. But I'll think how to make it not so harmful for somebody's ego.

When did I say that 筑基 is a part of non-Neidan process? You should pay more attention to wordings.

I said: ”Building the foundation” [筑基] - is a part of Daoism, which contains many methods, not only Neidan".

What methods of Daoism, except Neidan, are contained in 筑基? There are none. See below about text quotes.

In these texts it was clearly and intelligibly said: regulate and harmonize the breath (调息), use Post-Heaven breathing (后天呼吸) and Nourish Post-Heaven (培養後天). All these methods are Post-Heaven/Hou Tian work, but not Pre-Heaven/Xian Tian.

Second time: they are not methods, they are RESULTS.

It seems that the only way to get it is to practise. Then it becomes obvious that Zhang Sanfeng couldn't mean what you see in his words...

But I'm open to counter arguments if you have any, maybe you can prove that Zhang Sanfeng taught his students how to "breath in, breath out"?

When was it ever said that it gives the same results?

"1. ”Building the foundation” [筑基]:

- basic Qigong,

- basic breathing techniques,

- Dao Yin and other methods, which can help to improve the circulation of Qi.

- methods for accumulation of usual [Post-Heaven] Qi. "

筑基 - is a widely known initial stage of Neidan, where people work with Yuan Jing and they do it using Xian Tian techniques only. In any known orthodox school.

But here we see only Post Heaven under 筑基, it lead us to a wrong conclusion about possible results of Post Heaven methods mentioned.

I gave you concrete texts that prove that you are wrong.

Not really. Third time: there are no methods in classic texts. Only results and some subtle guidelines for indoor students.

You say: "There is a huge mistake here", "you don't have right experience", "you just don't know" ...

But actually these words do not have any evidence, and among your statements there is no solid argument proving that you are right, so they have no sense.

When somebody tries to prove that 2+2 = 5 and pretend to be a math teacher, then I don't see a necessity of "solid arguments" to just say that "you just don't know", and "there is a huge mistake here".

And personally I'm very thankful to people when they say it to me, because it moves me forward. I don't want to repeat my mistakes over and over again, and especially I don't want to mistakenly teach others.

Zhang San Feng said: 调息须以后天呼吸，寻眞人呼吸之处。古云：后天呼吸起微风，引起眞人呼吸功。

 

"While regulating breathing, one should use Post-Heaven breathing to find a place where a true breathing takes place. In ancient times, there was a saying: “Post-Heaven breathing gives rise to light wind, which leads to the true breathing.”

How to "use Post-Heaven breathing"? Why do you think Zhang Sanfeng meant any Qigong-like exercise?

In the "24 Secrets of Elixir Methods" (丹法二十四訣) by Patriarch Lu Yiming, it was said:

第一訣 [修補丹房] 培養後天，堅強色身。培養後天第一端

 

"Secret number one [Repair and cultivate of elixir house] is:

Nourish Post-Heaven, and, by doing so, strengthen the physical body [which is elixir house].

Nourishing the Post-Heaven is the initial point of departure [in the alchemical art]".

How to "Nourish Post-Heaven"? Why do you think Lu Yiming meant any Qigong-like exercise?

Pre-Heaven can affect Post-Heaven, and that the right way of Neidan, everything else is Qigong that will NEVER give you the same results and same direction.

People interested in Dao are eager to find Pre-Heaven methods, because it is one of the most valuable secrets in this world

You are wrong [see explanation below].

 

 

 

Dao Yin, Qigong and Tuna (breathing techniques) are not Neidan, but a part of the "Building the foundation” [筑基].

”Building the foundation” [筑基] - is a part of Daoism, which contains many methods, not only Neidan.

Really? Can you prove it by any quote of the classic texts, where 筑基 is a part of non-Neidan process? For sure, all other parts of the process have also be there (Jing to Qi, Qi to Shen etc).

It looks like you don't understand the meaning of 基. It's not just something like a house foundation or a practice to prepare somebody to something. It is used from very ancient times to highlight exact changes in the body, and these changes are Ming by their nature.

Dao Yin, Qigong and Tuna can help one to improve the circulation of Qi, accumulate usual [Post-Heaven] Qi, make body flexible and strong etc. They are very important for beginners.

Ok, so you're agree that Dao Yin, Qigong and Tuna are not Neidan, then they are not Ming Gong (by definition). My question was about Ming, but obviously there is nothing in your curriculum that has any similarity to Ming practices. That is why you have a wrong meaning for 筑基...

At first, a person needs to learn how to work with [Post-Heaven] Qi, because if one doesn't feel and work with [Post-Heaven] Qi, there is no way for one to do it with [Pre-Heaven] Qi.

It's not true. You just don't know other methods.

Zhang San Feng said: 凝神调息，调息凝神, 八个字，就是下手工夫 - "Concentrate the Shen [spirit] and regulate and harmonize the breath, regulate and harmonize the breath and concentrate the Shen is the first step to Gong Fu [mastership]."

There is a huge mistake here. You follow the way of translators who have no experience, no true teacher and no lineage. Because your teacher had to explain you how to read classic texts. Because Wu-Liu Pai has a true transmission of Zhang Sanfeng knowledge and we learn his texts, I can just tell you that in the phrase there is nothing about HOW somebody will "regulate and harmonize the breath"! You need to understand that methods are not revealed in classic texts!

 

Breathing techniques play a very important role in “methods of building the foundation”. In fact, correct, deep and quiet breathing helps to create us conditions under which the inner balance, harmony and inner peace can be achieved as quickly as possible. If breathing is not regulated, then to achieve these results will be very difficult, and in some cases even impossible. Therefore, this important stage of practice needs to be taken seriously and worked out well.

In Neidan all such things as inner balance are created using Neidan's methods, which don't use breathing techniques. Your opinion just means that you've never practised any Ming exercises and don't understand how they work.

Zhang San Feng said: 凝神者，收已清之心，而入其内也 - "Concentrate the Shen [spirit], means to collect one’s purified heart-mind to enter into the inside."

 

Zhang San Feng said: 大道以修心炼性为首 - "The most important task in the Great Dao is to cultivate the heart-mind (Xin) and to refine the Original Nature (Xing)."

 

Zhang San Feng said: 存心者，坚固城郭，不使房屋倒坍，卽筑基也 - "Preserving the heart-mind means, construction and strengthening of the city walls, so houses will not collapse, this is Building the foundation."

Same problem as before. In the last quote, 存心 ("preserving the heart-mind") is a result of 筑基 ("building the foundation"), but not the practice that can be used.

Neidan is a very ancient, but well defined and exact science. The classic texts have been created by supernatural people for their students, not for everybody who wants to start a new sect. That is why there are many levels of protection, there are traps and even some parts are mixed up. Only a true teacher can lead you through all these difficulties! So don't throw out parts you don't understand or if they contradict your previous knowledge. Diligently work, ask and finally you'll be able to make this puzzle The cost of any mistake here is very HIGH!

Neidan is just a general term for internal elixir. Xian Tian(先天) and Hou Tian(後天) are only descriptions of the sequence of event. Xian Tian(先天) means prenatal and Hou Tian(後天) means postnatal. Indeed, there was no prenatal practice of internal elixir before birth. Then, how could there be a postnatal practice of alchemy.....!!!

Sorry, but in Neidan these terms have different meanings.

Can you please prove your statement by explaining it from a logical perspective?

In "conventional" Neidan practice, usual Houtian methods are not used. Because Xiantian methods affect Houtian much better than usual Qigong.

Qigong-like exercises are used in some schools to prepare for Neidan practice but nobody tries to convince people that they are already practicing Neidan (Dao) methods. But even with such exercises there is a very important difference.

And nobody uses San Bao theory for Qigong, because Three Treasures are treasures only if they are Xian Tian. If they are Hou Tian, then they are "poisoned" and cannot be used for the practice.

And Neidan stages are set explicitly: Jing - Qi - Shen.

If you disagree, you're welcome to quote any classic text.

Attention will be given to the following Minggong practices:

1. ”Building the foundation” [筑基]:

- basic Qigong,

- basic breathing techniques,

- Dao Yin and other methods, which can help to improve the circulation of Qi.

- methods for accumulation of usual [Post-Heaven] Qi.

 

2. Inner Alchemy:

- method of transformation from usual dantian into alchemical dantian;

- how to make dantian integral and structurised;

- method, which can help to find and feel original [Pre-Heaven] Qi etc.

"Building the foundation" is a part of Neidan (=Inner Alchemy). Do you know what is the result of this stage? Do you believe it's possible to achieve Ren Xian level using Daoyin and Qigong?

I ask all that because it's a very common mistake to substitute Pre Heaven by Post Heaven, replace Xin by Mind and Ming by Body. Many schools do that, and I've heard it many times even in China, but it's just so wrong. They don't understand the important difference between Pre Heaven and Post Heaven. But even in DDJ it's described explicitly... Now thousands practice Qigong, but who can achieve Ren Xian level, as it is defined in Neidan? Maybe something important is missed?

Just to be clear: I have nothing against Qigong, I practice it by myself and I teach others. But the results cannot be the same as in Neidan. So I don't understand why people try to use Neidan terminology to describe Qigong.

I've read all those several times over and have never found them to be in conflict with what is considered to be "conventional" Hou Tian practice.

Just one small thing: there is no Hou Tian practice in Neidan

De is the Light. Dao is the Way.

Dao and De are used in DDJ in many contexts. So depending on the context, De can be first or last. If De is the root then it is about practice, where we need De to attain Dao (part of reversal process). If Dao is first then it is about natural way how De appears.

Just my 2 cents

 

Daoist retreat in Kyev from 02 until 11 January

 

The main focus will be on the analysis of practices of Mastership of Human Immortals (小乘人仙功), especially to sitting in a motionless calm and quiet (静坐 – Jinzuo).

 

A short description of the retreat:

 

- Xinggong as a basis of spiritual development in Daoist tradition;

- Basic Xinggong practices and detailed theory about how and why a person needs to improve the Heart of Nature.

- Understanding the Minggong practices and how to use them in combination with the Xinggong practices.

You mention a very important thing: Ming Gong practices. But I don't see what exactly you understand as Ming Gong. Will you teach any of such practices during this retreat?

opendao,

 

Where do you get your information from? It'd be cool to read a book with the path more clearly laid out like this.

There are some books translated to English. You can start with this one: http://www.goldenelixir.com/jindan/wm_stages.html

There is no lack of information, but now everything is mixed with anything, so it's hard to find the truth. If you can read Chinese I would recommend to start with Wu-Liu Pai compendium. But without a teacher it is still hard to grasp. Neidan is a really complex science

San Bao are interdependent.

 

If you nourish the JING it will nourish the QI. If you nourish the QI it will nourish the SHEN - Hou Tian Xiu

If you nourish the SHEN it will nourish the Qi. If you nourish the QI it will nourish the JING - Xian Tian Xiu

Such ideas are common in modern Qigong that tries to look as Neidan and uses the same terminology. But it has to be clear, that in Neidan (in ANY orthodox school), the transformation to Yangshen is possible ONLY using Xian Tian. This difference is highlighted by many teachers of the past, and I don't see any reasons to doubt what they wrote in classic books.

And Three Treasures all have to be Xian Tian as well, and they are explicitly named as Yuan Qi, Yuan Jing and Yuan Shen. There is no Hou Tian practices in Dao, even in the beginning. Using Qigong (=Hou Tian method) people can attain only Gui Xian level (= Yin Shen = ghost). That's the most. And it's not easy, it's not just a fantasy OBE.

Whats a good book/ source on the different stages of practice?

The teacher is the best source. Now you know what questions to ask when you meet any masters

About books, I cannot recommend anything... The classification I wrote is from Zhong Lü Chuan Dao Ji (鐘呂傳道集/钟吕传道集; Anthology of the Transmission of the Dao from Zhong[li Quan] to Lü [Dongbin]). But you need to make a big work to parallel it to a more known scheme of cultivation: foundation, Jing to Qi, Qi to Shen, Shen to Dao and so on.

 

Religions - faiths are culturally generated things , I doubt very much that individuals would arrive at them all by their lonesome at all so society is likely the generator of the things not spiriual insight of the individuals themselves.

All true traditions were created by individuals based on what they learnt from their teachers. After that, the society came to work and made from the practice a social toy called "religion" ...

Interesting. Here is another question I have that I feel is better to ask here than start another thread for:

 

What is the relation of consciousness to the Dao or how is consciousness viewed in Daoism? For example, is it the case (as in many Indic traditions) that our "true nature" is actually Dao? Are the practices in Daoism such as zuowang or internal alchemy used to integrate our limited egoic consciousness into the Dao, thereby achieving immortality/freedom/bliss, etc. etc.?

Consciousness is not an object in Daoist practice (Neidan). It's called 識神, "spirit of knowing". It has to be eliminated / transformed.

True Nature is a Xing 性, one of the objects of the practice. Another is Ming 命 - fate or life. Only by the dual cultivation of Xing and Ming a person can attain Dao. Our "limited egoic consciousness" cannot be integrated into the Dao, because by itself our consciousness is an obstacle on the Way.

 

It seems to me there is something wrong with the logic. How can a formless called the real person.

here is a Chinese text for Huainanzi quote above:

能反其所生，故未有形，謂之真人。

perhaps the logic is correct, because 真 = "true", not "real" in the context. Formless here could mean invisibility, I think, but even invisible person is still a person

 

Let me make it real simple to understand by comparing with two religions, Buddhism and Taoism.

In reality,

1. The ultimate goal of a living Buddhist monk is to become a Buddha.

2. The ultimate goal of a living Taoist priest is to become a Zhanren(a real person).

agree

A Zhanren is a living person who tries to keep his body in good health with no sicknesses from Taoist cultivation. By Taoist cultivation, it means that Taoists are in celibacy, eating special diet, and practice chi kung to preserve their bodies for longevity. In reality, if a Zhanren can live over 100 years, may be considered to be an immortal. In mythology, an immortal is when the soul left the body and rose to heaven.

Both definitions are not really fitted into the traditional point of view. You can compare with Huangdi Neijing :

余聞上古有真人者，提挈天地，把握陰陽，呼吸精氣，獨立守神，肌肉若一，故能壽敝天地，旡有終時，此其道生。

(sorry, don't have English text, but it's from the first chapter).

Is it about celibacy? Diet? Do you know any modern Qigong that allows to get the longevity of Heaven and Earth?

What I want to know is whether or not Taoism has the equivalent to what various Hindu philosophies call jivanmukta, what Buddhists often call enlightenment, or what often was known in Western traditions as gnosis. Does Taoism have a notion of a transcendent liberating experience that is equivalent to the highest knowledge, the fulfillment of the meaning of human life, or an attainment of a deathless state/unity with the Absolute?

This is a good question, because goals can tell something interesting about the teaching.

I would say Daoism speaks about different stages of the practice. The highest goal is Tian Xian (Heaven Immortal), that is usually described as unity with Dao and Emptiness. Nothing stays on Earth (see the story about Bodhidharma's shoe). The absolute knowledge is achieved at the previous stage - Shen Xian (Spirit Immortal). The fulfillment of the human life can be achieved even on the Earth Immortal stage, but the meaning - on Shen Xian only.

I always thought that was the case and that was what Lao Tzu and Zhuangzi were getting at with the notion of "attaining the Tao", but I've had people tell me that this is mere "Buddhist interpolation" or a misunderstanding of Taoist soteriology. Of course the way I've read the TTC/Zhuangzi and what translations I could find of other pre-Buddhist Taoist works leads me to believe that is the goal thus precluding any notion of Buddhist interpolation, but perhaps I am wrong.

 

Perhaps a way to clarify the question would be this--is Taoism compatible with the so-called Perennial Philosophy or the Traditionalist School of thought?

If we define Tradition as something that is passed from an eternal source, then yes, Daoism can share this idea and that is why lineages are so important in Daoism. But even Genon's philosophy has many other ideas, so it's hard to say is it fully compatible or not. You need to know completely both ways to do such work

Hi,

I'm from Quanzhen school, Ma Yu's branch. Live in Vancouver, Canada. Would love to share some info about traditional Daoism and get new knowledge from similar minded people.

Cheers.