opendao

Welcome to the Taobums, opendao, and blessing for having the heart to share the truth here! I am in China at the moment (汉语言文字学硕士生） and actively seeking for an authentic teacher in neidan/neigong, if you have any pointers please share.

I remember about you, awaiting a response from my teacher. For now I can just say that all real schools are very closed, and don't accept foreigners.

Immortal Zhonglí Quan was a teacher Liu Dongbin.

 

Immortal Zhonglí Quan in Ling Bao Bi Fa (灵宝毕法) said that meditation is a very important Inner Alchemy practice.

 

quote pls where he said that Da Zuo "is a very important Inner Alchemy practice".

 

手脚递互，伸缩三五下，使四体之气齐生，内保元气上升以朝于心府"

Cross your hands and legs(Lotus position) .......... let the Chi to be produced in the arms and legs. Internally, keep the Yuan Chi ascend toward the heart.

 

 

盘膝坐 = Lotus position

just curious why you skipped 伸缩三五下?

Well I believe the exception is when one begins the work while still in possession of "superior virtue". Ah to be in possession of superior virtue again..

It looks almost right, but can you elaborate what you mean by "superior virtue"? or just quote if you refer to some book.

But, can anyone here explain how the difference btw how "post-natal qigong" feels like and how internal alchemical meditations and postitions feels like, i.e experientially define this in a nuanced way? What is really the difference between the process of NeiDan and qigong?

the real difference is not about what somebody feels, but about results. The result of the first stage is restored Yuan Jing. What is it exactly and what signs appear - all that can explain a true teacher and then you can compare it with classic texts.

PS: Things have changed since "Understanding Reality" and other "Yellow emperor¨´s guide" was written.

What has changed?

Nothing good. The balance between right and wrong information is the same, but the amount of information is crazy higher (cheap publishing, Internet, new-age etc), so to find something is even more difficult then 500-1000 years ago.

Zhang San Feng in 道言浅近说 said about calm and silence and that calm and silence are the main principles of a true practice.

I know this Zhang San Feng text, it is a 道言浅近说, where Zhang San Feng said about calmness and silence and that calmness and silence are the main principles of a true practice.

I have to admit that I never been to China and never spoke to any traditional teacher of Taoism and thus my opinion is based only on what I have read in books. Your teacher says that all those texts are incorrect translations of Taoist scriptures. It's may be true but I can not just trust you and your teacher. I have reasons for that. First of all we don't know what was the true Wu Lu Pai's method in the past and if it correlates with the method they use and teach you now. We do not know situation in Taoist tradition in contemporary China. There are loads of teachers in Asia who teach methods which can not be proved for their authenticity and people have to trust them. Second, I have nothing against your personal experience and I only study different oriental scriptures and I can see many meditations techniques are described there. It's what I said in my previous post. I can give you many links to the yoga scriptures where regulations of breath are described. As for Taoist scriptures I can refer only to the English translations as I do not read Chines. For example here is

 

http://www.egreenway.com/taichichuan/chang1.htm#Lu

The Writings Attributed to Master Zhang San Feng:

Now about Zhang San Feng. I made some comments before, but now a little bit more. It's good that you read different texts, from different masters. But, as a researcher, you need to understand who wrote a text and for whom. Zhang Sanfeng learnt 2 schools. One of them is VERY special. If you explore that, you will understand that his methods are very unique, even though you can see such words as "Da Zuo" and "breathing". I don't want to talk further about it, because it's a very simple test to understand, if somebody knows Neidan or not (it's not about you). Neidan is simple when there is an enlightened teacher, who explains all such traps and subtle details, but Neidan is complicated and confusing if it is learnt just by books.

 

One can stay away from the mirror of somebody else's level of understanding but it is better to be bilingual to have a higher chance of comprehension. There is always something get lost from translation to translation. Sometimes, even natives have lots of misinterpretations, perhaps, with more or less errors.

I rely on my teacher's knowledge. He is a professional sinologist with 30 something years of experience in translating Daoist scriptures. And he always verifies his understanding through his teacher, who is more then just native. Personally I have more issues with English, this language is hard to be used for Neidan. But you are right, classic Chinese language is an obstacle for many people.

Waidan is a process to manufacture an elixir by external means such as using elements and minerals baked in a cauldron with fire. It may not be related the DDJ directly at all. Waidan was existed during the Warring States.

Can you refer some Waidan books written that time?

And no, DDJ has no relation to Waidan, at least as far as I know it.

 

 

BTW How did you come to this conclusion......???

I wrote about it in other themes. Humans need to restore Yuan Jing to be able to start the transformation. There is one exception from that rule, maybe somebody know it?

If one stays on the small hills, then one will not see what is on top of the mountains.........

 

exactly. Neidan schools are high in the mist of mountains, but people prefer to think that hills are mountains.

 

There is a thing called "cultivation of the mind" at different levels. It is called 道行. The revelation of the level is based on the behavior or how one presents oneself besides verbal expression.

Somebody's level is just a mirror of somebody else's level of understanding.... You remember what Zhan Boduan wrote about a toad and its knowledge?

I agree the idea of Neidan comes from Waidan, that's why they used so many metaphors as mercury, lead and gold, crucibles, cauldrons and bellows.

Tradition says that Waidan came later, but who cares, right? When the first waidang treatise was created? when Lao Zi wrote DDJ?

Neidan is the process of transforming the inherent energetic potentials of the body through purification, combination and transmutation with the aim of bringing about the birth of the immortal.

 

Does that include Qigong? - Yes.

Can it be done without Qigong? - No.

 

So wherein is the confusion? - O_O

Confusion comes from the fact that immortal cannot be born just based on the inherent energetic potential

So even the first step in Neidan needs to change that potential and it's impossible to do with Qigong.

一山還有一山高

There is always a mountain higher than another

 

 

Therefore, who is to say who is the best....!!!

 

We're speaking about the foundation actually. But if you don't know, in the world there are Mountains and there are small hills

Wang Chungyang in 重陽立教十五論 said about a true Da zuo [真坐] and a false Da zuo [假坐].

 

Wang Chungyang in 重陽立教十五論 and 重陽真人金關玉鎖訣 said about meditation [打坐] and that meditation is a very important practice. Wang Chungyang said about sitting in a motionless calm and silence 靜坐 [Jing zuo] and that calm and silence are the main principles of a true practice.

about Wang Chungyang. He taught Da Zuo as a preparatory method to quite the heart. Wang Chungyang learnt Neidan methods from Liu Dongbin, then he taught some people (Ma Danyang etc) these methods, but created a new system for monks based on Daoist, Buddhists and other methods. Now in many Northern Schools Da Zuo is learnt as a basic preparatory method, but it has no relation to Neidan, as shown previously.

Tradition-fakers (hmm, sorry for my French) don't know about it, so easily extrapolated single preparatory method to the entire Neidan legacy and think that it's a "main principle of a true practice".

 

We get Post-Heaven Qi through respiration and nutrition (food). Thus, the source of Post-Heaven Qi is virtually endless, as opposed to the Pre-Heaven energy, which is finite.

Original energy is very subtle and elusive, and usual Qi is coarse and easily changeable. Yuan Qi is very hard to restore. To do it, one must at first find it in ones body and activate

again? No humans can feel Yuan Qi, so following this method it's impossible to do that. See theory to understand why.

Opendao, you always invent something that does not exist and I didn't say.

 

Over the several years, opendao and his friends from wuliupai invents and disseminates lies and slander about me and Zhen Dao Pai, and now he has come to this forum with the same target.

 

opendao, I see no sense to discuss with you.

I asked what is the source of your profound knowledge, so you think you can represent Neidan tradition, claim anything about its methods, and teach others. You confirmed again, that there is nothing except books.

Where is your lineage, where is your teacher? Nothing to say, right? So it's better to cry about "wuliupai" (using a small letter to show your attitude lol), that you're victim ans so on. We've heard it many times. But we can confirm ANY our word.

I asked why Building the Foundation is so different in your school and other lineages, you said nothing again.

There is nothing really to discuss, Master Vitaliy, everything is clear. Write more.

Interesting thing is that Wu Lui Pai derives from Dragon Gate Taoism,

correct

which has Wang Liping as its transmitter.

sad, but there is no any prove for this declaration...

Of course.

 

That is why all the Traditional Schools emphasize the importance of an alive Master, who would be able to shed light on all the nuances of theory and philosophy, and how they both are conceived in a certain School.

Vitalii, can you shed some light on your lineage (complete, with masters at least on some steps) and where we can finally meet an alive Master of your school (except you, of course)? Wu-Liu Pai people has been asking for that for 10 years! But still there is nothing that can reveal our doubts...

 

Original energy is very subtle and elusive, and usual Qi is coarse and easily changeable. Yuan Qi is very hard to restore. To do it, one must at first find it in ones body and activate

To finish about the differences between Neidan and Qigong, I'd like to cite the Teacher of Single Yang:

Most importantly, the way of alchemy increases the primordial jing, qi and shen of the human body, as opposed to qigong, which can only follow the law of nature, whereby the human body always follows the order of creation and destruction (death).

 

Any qigong is just an accessory method in the preparatory phase of Taoist alchemy and any kind of qigong can’t go beyond the preparatory stage of the elixir way.

Link to a full article on our old web-site: http://www.all-dao.com/difference-qigong-alchemy.html

Again: any kind of qigong can’t go beyond the preparatory stage of the elixir way!

We discussed why, and I hope somebody understood the difference between Xian Tian, reversal process of Neidan, and Hou Tian, direct process used in Qigong.

Next week I will try to gather various thoughts about what is good Qigong, and what is a difference between ancient systems and modern Qigong, invented after 1950. It will also cover some questions to me that I couldn't answered yet.

As we could see before, in REAL, orthodox, non-broken lineages (we mentioned Wu-Liu Pai, Yuxian Pai and Zhan Boduan's school at least) there are no Dazuo as the main method. But, for sure, modern interpreters and inventors will continue their dark business to fool people. Just because there is nothing else they can teach and get money for.

Neidan is not Dazuo, and has absolutely other methods to work with Xing (Real Nature) and give the results, described as "purity and calmness".

Ignorant readers, who have never practised any true methods, and cannot even understand, how it's possible to "work with Yuan Qi without feeling it" (it's about fake Zhen Dao teaching), how they can understand the miraculous work of Ming methods, that automatically, without any efforts, as a post-effect, give to a student the "purity and calmness"?

But I think everybody, who has a fate to learn Neidan, already understood all that and will never be fooled by Taoi$$t businessmen.

What is the difference between an immortal in your school and a Buddha? From what I know, Shakyamuni Buddha is called the golden immortal because at one time, he was an immortal who practiced patience. So does that mean that a Buddha surpassed an immortal? I'm asking for opendao's interpretation.

In Wu-Liu Pai Buddha is equal to Xian (Immortal).

Liu Huayang was a Chan monk, then learnt Neidan from Wu Chongxu and was able to understand old Chan scriptures from practical point of view. He realized that the teachings are the same and lead to a transformation to Immortal and Buddha. That is why the school is named XianFo sometimes.

I have no info about that Shakyamuni is "golden immortal". Immortals are different by level though.

Balancing yin and yang, firmness without aggression, flexibility without weakness, firmness and flexibility supporting and balancing each other, "When firmness and flexibility are balanced, yin and yang are in harmony; essence and sense merge, water and fire offset each other. This is what is called the inversion of water and fire." - Liu I Ming

 

You can do this sitting, standing, walking. To say one can't work on Ming while sitting is an absolutist fallacy.

You are not following what I said: There is no Ming work in "quite sitting" of any kind.

"Quite sitting" is a known and well defined method in Qigong (good for heart), in Chan Buddhism (well defined by 6th patriarch) etc. But there is no Ming there, because physically such exercise cannot change anything in Ming, except the fact that you're exhausting your Jing. So you are trying to invent something and then prove it by texts, that were written about other stages, about other methods, or even were addresses to non-initiated people. What's a point of such hard work? Prove to yourself that by sitting you can achieve Neidan results? You can try it without it. It's your health, it's your fate, take a risk and jump.

Just remember about this warning:

"In the world there is a kind of method of practising «alchemy» in the form of sitting silently, muttering the spells or prayers or their own various practices of sitting. Practitioners of them completely don’t understand that it is absolutely useless and does not lead to any result. This sitting (meditation) is called «枯禪» - a withered contemplation, withered Chan. In the Taoism is often said that "the movement causes Yang" and "the immobility causes Yin", "pure Yang is a Xian (immortal)", "pure Yin is a Gui (a devil, a ghost).” If you sit in Dazuo (a sitting practice in the lotus or a cross-legged practice, a meditation), it is a false calmness, the continuation of this process causes Yin to grow, and the longer the sitting will last, the paler and the flabbier the face will become and the more worse the health and condition of body will be. Then the Yang jing cannot be retained in the body and will be scattered outside.

 

The seeker of the spiritual practice! First think about an amount of the jing you have, so you're not afraid to exhaust it by sitting, to die even without knowing that it will happen from your practice, unknowingly destroy your soul by an unreasonable predilection of a profane teaching? If this happens, it will be truly sad!"

 

Therefore, the true alchemy school does not teach the sitting dazuo, the followers of Wu Chung-xu and Liu Hua-yang do not practice it.

 

Remember: the sitting gives rise to yin, and yin leads to the death.

I can accept that, thank you. It's much better than other (much, much longer) texts I've read attempting to deny any form of acknowledgment of 'western' understanding of the body and origins of life.

 

But, (at risk of derailing your interesting discussion) I view DNA as a form of intelligence in itself, much greater than the sum total of it's nucleotides. It's a physical manifestation of an already-present energetic power. And we do get half from Mom, half from Dad, after all The model fits too smoothly into the Daoist model to be coincidence. Ditto the glandular/hormonal systems (note that the adrenal glands are called the 'second kidneys' - Nebennieren - in German).

 

What would the Daoist researchers of old have done with an electron microscope, I wonder? (given that they had the electricity to run the thing of course).

It's interesting, I think that in the future the Western science will get into understanding what Qi is, what is Xian Tian Qi and how all that is manifested in the human body. But for Daoism it's not very important, because if you can have a tool that allows you to "see" such subtle things directly, then why you may need a microscope? That's really exciting and that's what Neidan is all about: to understand how the world works on its real level. It's like you can understand how CPU works and how a picture on display is generated after that.

Thank you Vitali, and for that post.

 

To opendao -- it's not simply absence of thoughts and desires, it's the stabilization of Xing and Ming which can take place from there. People who don't know about Xing and Ming and are unable to recognize internal changes will not get very far at all in neidan, true (and probably neither will I, though not because of this), but if one is able to follow the internal process of transformation, and does not just sit there like a dead log.. this is what I'm talking about as neidan practice which may be part of certain qi gong systems.

There is a problem here: how to follow the internal process of transformation, if there are no methods to start it? You cannot do it by " stabilization of Xing and Ming", all you can stabilize is body and mind, but it's no the same as Ming and Xing. There is no Ming work in "quite sitting" of any kind, that's where all beautiful theories crash usually...

 

If you want to play with semantics, I will play along with you because it's my game......

 

From the Yijing(易經):

先天八卦: early version Buaga

 

後天八卦: later version Buga.

Awesome and correct. So what's next, you can play with Buaga/Buga and prove that they are about lungs?

You know this discussion goes nowhere. It always like this when a guy comes on here and have secret methods but chooses not to teach them. Might as well not go on the website if all you like to do is argue. Brings the leader of their lineage to shame.

Thanks for your fair opinion. But the method is already given, maybe your Dharma eye is not focused....

There is no method without theory, and I pointed out some misunderstandings in the theory. If it harms you because contradicts what you know - sorry about that, but it's not a reason to shut me up.

http://jadeturtlerecords.blogspot.com/2011/05/patriarch-lu-dongbin-lu-chunyang.html

I've read this Buddhist fantasy... There are a lot of misunderstanding between late Buddhists and late Daoists. Both were wrong usually.

 

The Yijing defines:

先天(Pre-Heaven): Prenatal

後天(Post-Heaven): Postnatal

yes, but "prenatal" for what kind of object? You think it's about humans only, but it affects everything in the world. And even for humans, Xian Tian still exists after birth and still works. How come if it's only about lungs and breathing?