opendao

It is rather pertinent that the same exact character you point to in the same exact novel blows up somebody's heart with his bare hands because the guy was acting too out of line. Talk about a stark counterpoint to your argument.

 

The perspective you suggest is not practical for somebody who really wants to learn. Daoists I have met have no trouble speaking very directly to those they're willing to teach.

 

Thus,

 

On the one hand, if a student comes to a Daoist teacher and declares, "I have discovered that holding my breath as long as I can and thinking about the space inside of my navel will surely make me an immortal," the teacher may simply nod and say, "ok."

 

But on the other hand, if the student describes his or her "discovery" and then asks the teacher for his or her opinion, there's no sensible reason to think that a Daoist teacher wouldn't simply say, "well, I'm afraid you're incorrect."

 

Simple, straightforward, down to earth, pragmatic.

 

Right. Similar words we hear very often from Taoist Teachers in China. This is the only approach that works, not abstract ideas about doing nothing and emptiness. 

道可道, 非常道

​There is a goal? Does this mean I need to score? There is something to understand? This is very confusing.

 

When did Tao become knowledge, acting, agendas, goals, high or low ,have or have not? No wonder sages have nothing to teach.

 

​This all sounds like something that happens when the Tao is lost.

 

I am right and you are wrong who would like to be the judge? If you agree with me that would be awesome. If you disagree with me how can you be a fair judge. 

 

My me is so full of me i can not even see everything that is not me which makes me and everything.

 

I give up, I am going to make some soup with these opposites and drink it. one dash of wrong one dash of right, Oh...the soup is me. I mean an apple 

Only in their fantasies and get rich quick  schemes.

funny words out of non-Chinese folks making rush promotion of a Taiwanese lady as an "authentic source"...

I can't say I agree that the chinese have the one inroad to comprehension and experience of dao.

 

Dao is eeeeeeverywhere... even in my toilet. 

 

edit to add:  ironically though, I think our toilet was made in China... go figure

I am thankful for your effort to advertise Chinese daoism culture.

 

But if you can listen to a native speaker of Chinese.

 

You will learn more and misunderstand less of dao.

If you really want to teach us and reduce misunderstandings, maybe you will finally stop attacking others, return to the topic and tell us the Goals of your Dan Dao practice? Like a plan. What to do first, what to do next.

Opendao, could you please clarify the above for me. Are your insults directed at somebody in particular or at everybody on this forum in general?

they are directed to no-sense arguments and trolling.

It's obvious for all not-so-huge-ego people.

Just to help you:

it seems foolish arguments are over, and stupid trolling confirms that...

thanks Arkady for a great lesson on careful and attentive translation of Daoist texts.

It shows again how every word is important, and when neglected such mistakes easily confuse people.

"Without texts one can't find a Teacher, without a Teacher one can't understand texts"

This is the thing - a master with high level of development and a great harmony sense will not write first good texts and then some irrelevant sh..t. smile

If the harmony is developed then everyone who can feel sees that the master is great.

Rgds, Ilya

It works the same with anything people do. Any writing can tell a lot about its author and his or her level.

And by reading good texts it's possible to learn how to attune to the author's thoughts, because great texts are like a Camertone - they create an example of harmony.

Some people here are so desperately trying to promote themselves by slandering traditional Daoism. 

That's the certain negative advertisement to begin with.

I am a traditional Dao practicer. And I can read these traditional Chinese old texts directly. I also read a lot of articles and did a lot of practice.

 

I agree Lui Dongbin, Zhongli Quan, Zhang Boduan is the right apples. But I don't agree that Wu Chongxu, Liu Hauyan are right apples.

 

They are not the same. Please don't mix their names together.

 

Thank you.

If the schools of Neidan must exercise forcefulness and cultivate disharmony to protect themselves, does this mean they have abandoned the teachings of Lao Zi and Zhuang Zi?

 

it is so when we speak about those who proved many times their inability to read texts, as in the example above. Imaginary goals, based on textual misunderstanding and lack of attention, make no harmony. 

Idiot question: How to learn "WISDOM"?

 

What does it look like?

How do you know you have one?Or not?

 

What is WISDOM in different traditions?

What are texts on WISDOM in different traditions?

 

What does WISDOM look like?

 

Why is it important?

 

Meow...

In Taoist tradition wisdom is not something learnt from books or by extensive thinking.

Real wisdom comes from spirit-Shen, Yuan Shen, innate spirit. But naturally it's weak and silent, so Shi Shen, the mind, takes over the control. Many people believe that if they "shut up" their mind, by means of meditation, for example, then Yuan Shen will be able to control the life. But it doesn't happen really. Because Yuan Shen is weak, it's Yin..

The way to obtain wisdom is to use Ming, innate life force, to empower Shen, make it Yang. Then the ability to see and understand things directly, as well as explaining them, will grow. That's what is wisdom really. Chinese tradition speaks more about De in this context.

Without Ming practices, everybody has an access to this innate wisdom, but very rarely. It's called intuition or conscience (honesty).

hmnn, what are you against chanting or showers?  Try both, if you want I'll give you pointers but I get the feeling it'd fall on deaf ears.  Once a person falls into the 'Only I am practicing the real thing.  Everyone else is living in delusion' learning nose dives. 

 

I've seen many people with the same attitude, study for years, then switching from old real thing, to new real thing.  Not every wants to be a monk or master, let them find there own way.

 

I admire the hardcore, but the elitist who looks down on other arts, and householders.. can become a fundamentalist trapped in dogma.   Who'd probably go further if they kept an open mind. 

That's exactly what I told: open dogmatic mind and see another side of the tradition.

If (and only if is strong) you want to pursuit other goals.

this question carries an inherent assumption...

 

that their method of practice is something one is interested in or trying to learn.  If one has no interest in their paradigm of mixing Daoism, Buddhism, and Confucianism as a practice, then it is almost moot what they are telling you about what you are practicing.   My observation is that very few at this site are interested in this as an active practice.   My observation is that most follow much earlier/more ancient energetic, magic and/or natural methods.

Some people here are really looking for more than simplified modern qigong from muddy sources.

And if they are interested in Dao as a goal, with high level results of Shen transformation, then their attitude towards Daoist schools and classics defines clearly the possibility of such high level results.

By neglecting later texts, explaining the ancient method more clearly (for modern people), with explanations of unity of various teachings, such students just intentionally limit their possibilities. Their understanding is very low.

Hmnn, what if they said what you are doing is wrong?  I haven't studied those guys, I take it they're all dead and probably being human don't have perfect agreement with each other.  If masters of mussar or H'oppo'no'no said what you're doing is wrong, how strongly would you take it?   Obviously they're acknowledged masters and you're not.  So..

 

While I admire those who follow traditional systems, I do think there are traps in them, ie cultural conditionings and dogmas that work against them.  As an (ex) martial artist I admire those who preserve the old systems, yet to be balanced and to cut out the cultural time wasters, I prefer training with those who've gone deep into tradition systems and found the 'heart' of them and teach from there; sort of the Jeet Kun Do (Bruce Lee's) philosophy. 

 

These are excellent teachers who have read and studied the classics and understand there strengths and limitations.  They don't argue translations in the classics because there aim is not to produce scholars but deep cultivators.  

 

More personally, I'm into keeping it simple these days.  I've got kids, responsibilities.  Going deep can wait.  Long Walks in nature, medium sitting, some energy work, a chant now and then in the shower.  Good enough, for me, right now.  A lazy householder. 

There is another side. As example, take Taijiquan practitioners. 99% of them don't understand the art and cannot use it. But there are masters who know, and their abilities are way behind fantasy stories we can read... And they teach texts to their students, because there is something in Taoism that have to be transmitted through texts. And they do argue with no-sense translations and shallow approach of "tai chi" people. Because it's the only way for their students to achieve the goal of Taijiquan. This is a real tradition, not a water-down imitation.

It's up to you: limit yourself intentionally or pursuit other goals. I think the main thing is for people to understand that there is a choice. Not everybody wants just chant in a shower ))

Western parody on taoism make people weak and without any goal at all...

I've got times where my chi produces to much heat resulting in swaety palms/foots, lower self-esteem, restless sleep, too much thougts etc. 

What helps me quite a bit is shaking, tapping the body here and there and directing the chi to ming-men and the foot area and storing it in LDT. But it seems to me that directing chi with the mind in itself produces some kind of heat. So my question is: Are there any exercises/meditations or herbs/foods or other things that are able to cool down the body?

maybe, as an option, just to stop "directing chi with the mind"? especially, if it produces so much heat.

Proper chi movement shouldn't produce the heat as you describe. In contrast, thoughts have to calm down, sleep - improve and so on.

Where are you getting that from books? What exactly is the problem I ought to be looking out for and what is the nature of the deviation?

 

If you can explain the nature of the problem and how one ought to correct it I'll be grateful for your help!

I'm not aware of any english book explaining the nature of deviations in qigong and neidan or even listing them... 

The problem is in using intention, attention and imagination. And most of the exported variants of Taoist arts are based on them, so obviously their evangelists try to avoid speaking about potential issues they have no idea how to solve...

Neidan uses San Bao, Three Treasures: Jing, Qi and Shen. But Three Treasures have to be Pre-Heavean, or they are impure and cannot be used.

When one reads about LDT or small heavenly circle in popular "neidan" books, intention is focused on getting such things, attention is focused by such intention and it's not very hard to imitate anything you want inside of own body.

However any tool our mind can use - intention, attention, visualization, thoughts etc - is impure and is based on Post-Heaven Qi. So such results have no value for the alchemy, for the further transformation of the body and spirit.

What you describe as a technique you use is a qigong technique. Qigong uses postures, breathing or mind to control post-heaven qi. Its role is to heal and make life better and happier. Qigong cannot bring any of the results of the Neidan-alchemy.

Taking this into consideration, if you have no Neidan teacher yet, it's better to focus on balancing your Qigong, so it stops creating deviations.

Deviation here means lack of qi balance, first of all. Good, ancient qigong (yangsheng) variants don't use mind, but use other methods to control post-heaven qi and bring it to a balance.

Why any mind work is not desirable for Qigong? Because it creates an opposite result, it dis-balance qi, and it's unavoidable (that's how our heart-mind works). Online "gurus" love it, because such dis-balance creates fast and impressive sensations. But we can understand that such home-made "schools" only teach how to press gas and break pedals at the same time... sensations are strong, but vehicle will be broken quite soon...

To sum up, there is no way to learn Qigong or Neidan by books or videos. Human nature has constant tendency to jump to extremes and choose the most dis-balance way possible. Only knowledgeable and patient teacher can help.

In your case I'd suggest to stop reading and doing, and start walking more outside (park, forest), until all the effects are gone. Then find a teacher and start learning any ancient qigong without mind work: zhang zhuan, simple tai chi movements, 5 animals etc. For that you might need to travel, but I really think that traveling expenses are nothing comparing to the issues one might have by doing wrong things (like telling I'm fake and poser :-)

The other day I meditated for about 20 minutes and the heat in the LDT took this route -- LDT>diaphragm>heart>diaphragm>LDT>diaphragm>heart etc. eventually they seems to merge together and then the heat dropped to the perineum and I did actually feel my body had become more supple after that happened.

 

Then maybe the next day I felt heat in my forehead and thereafter it felt like a dent was forming there.

 

Are there any references to that in neidan?

yes, usually such things are considered as dangerous deviations in Neidan.

I really suggest to find a real (not online) teacher and correct your practice before continuing.

My understanding is as I said it in the post above.

Can you elaborate how a "doing" method (which in consequence has to be initiated and controlled by shi-shen or "common mind") is supposed to be able to work with or to influence pre-heaven chi?

"doing" is not really initiated by mind... of course we take a decision to learn and practice, but while practicing the mechanism is not based on mind or physical activity or any post-heaven, it's based on yuan qi changes.

All those methods using intention, visualization, movement, feeling etc. are "doing", therefore use shi-shen and in consequence work with post-heaven chi.

Qigong, Taichi, Neigong etc. use these post-heaven principles.

 

Only those methods which are "non-doing" use yuan-shen, in consequence work with pre-heaven chi, therefore can be considered alchemic methods and therefore have the potential to lead to immortality.

doing and non-doing both work only with pre-heaven in the alchemy. 

But shishen is postheaven, as well as most of widespread practices, you're right.

Do you really mean the muscle tendon changing classic and not the Bone marrow classic?

both

The same Wong states:

impurity of methods based on imagination can be understood after people experience that there is something else, more effective and less erroneous. 

What can I do without a teacher?

Not that I don't want one, just can't afford extra expenditures at the moment. I'm in college and every dollar counts.

 

Anyway I was thinking of just doing Tree Hugging.

it's a good choice, but try to find somebody to learn basics at least to avoid various common mistakes...

Forgive me if this is a previously answered question:

As I understand it, yi jin jing is actually an exercise that belongs in its own category outside of qi gong. This is possibly confusing since "qi gong" is often used as an umbrella term for all exercise systems from china dealing with internal energy. Also, I believe I read on another, much older post, that it was ill-advised to practice both yi jin jing and qi gong simultaneously.

Is this an accurate summation? I am looking for a deeper understanding to the reasons for this.

I realize this is a vast subject that cannot be covered in a single thread of posts, or a dozen for that matter. Please point me in the right direction to begin my homework.

Thank you

Peace

Yi Jin Jing is a part of Chan Buddhist legacy. Originally it's parallel in Daoist world is Neidan, Internal Alchemy.

Qigong, both Buddhist or Daoist, has different methods and results.

To practice them both or not - teacher has to decide. There are many variants of Qigong, there are many variants of Yi Jin Jing...

I believe that understanding why they are burnt does not directly impact understanding of this verse. The straw dogs are burnt at funerals in order to avert evil spirits. However, lets recall the figurative meaning of "straw dog" that means something unwanted or useless thing. Hence in DDJ it is said about the importance of cultivation. And the thesis is emphasized by usage of the "straw dog" expression in its figurative meaning, at the same time in a sense of a pun exploiting its literal relation to the funeral, i.e. pointing to the Death that is awaited everyone who is not cultivating Tao.

Right. Live, struggle and die is useless. Live and obtain Dao - stop being a straw dog 

Some people don't get how to be strict and love at the same time. But isn't it how good parents raise their children?

Heaven and earth are strict to people the same way and for the same purpose...

Leaving aside for now the question of superiority or inferiority I should say that what path you choose is a matter of affinity (or even destiny).

As a general rule, most of neidan lineages does not rely on the acquired mind (shishen) for training. So, no visualizations and no mantras. There similar things but the approach seems to be very different. The core of many neidan methods is to put in motion the mechanism of yuan qi and this cannot be done with the acquired mind. While people can complain about not having mind reform methods the truth is that neidan has pure Chinese mind reform methods. "Pure" in the sense of not having a mix with indian world view. For instance, if you could calm your heart and relax deep while practicing you are making room for your real mind to be present (this is a bit confucianist but I think it is one of the first goals of practice), if you correct the energetic state of the five zang-fu you harmonize its psychological characteritics in yourself, i. e. you can manage your anger and fears and use your will, for example (this is the same idea as in chinese medicine in general, the parts of the psyque are stored in the five organs and depends on their health).

Right. It's impossible to stop mind with the mind, thoughts with other thoughts, visions by means of the imagination... Real transformation of the heart comes naturally from a deep change of the Yuan Qi. It was the same in all traditions, but lost in time and translation... 

Kongming, I think it has more sense to look for a teacher, not for a particular tradition.