opendao

TTC speaks of having great virtue but what is virtue? at least in the taoist sense? and how do we become virtuous?

people have innate De, people can become more virtuous by cultivating Dao, and sages can "give" De to other people as well. Some increase can be made by "good deeds" and "virtuous actions", but it works mostly for people with high enough innate De, and such way has its own limits.

Sages are rare nowadays, as well as people with high innate De, so the only way is the alchemy practice. Then De becomes a real magic power, and the words of Lao Zi open its meaning.

The common definition of virtue (at least in western society is concern) is to have "good" character and if we learn anything from TTC is that: 

De is more deep then just "good character" or moral. It's a foundation of the character on the energy level. "Charisma" is more close to the ancient understanding. And "grace" in Christianity is a good parallel.

In TTC De is a must have quality for the king. Also, it's a basis of real WuWei ("non doing").

"When it knows good as good, evil arises" TTC 2, Derek Lin

 

So...our society dictates what good and evil are so our society dictates what virtue is. agree or disagree?

No. Dao dictates what good and evil. It's like a physical Law. Society can follow it, but it prefers to invent its own definitions and laws, destroying itself and its people. TTC has a lot about it.

What is the relationship between qi/chi and consciousness or Mind? It's often said that jing, qi, and shen (which is seen as consciousness, spirit, or mind) are actually one. Does this mean that qi is related to, possesses, or actually is identical to consciousness?

I'm getting outside my understanding here a bit, but i will give you my believes, and more expereinced people should feel free to correct me if i am wrong.

 

Surely there is always a flow in both the du mai and the ren mai, and surely they are related and connected with eachother. Granted the flow both in them and between them can vary. But i think that when we do neidan something else happens, somehow. It's not only that we are aware of the energy that is flowing there. Something else is happening, either the energy flow is different or other energy is flowing or something of the sorts. I am quite unsure of what exactly but i do belive something different happens.

That's correct.

Real small heaven is not about natural flow of postheaven qi or jing in medical (tcm) du and ren channels.

Small heaven circle in Neidan is different:

"Once a student of the School produces a "true seed", then it will be not  qi but rather the “true water” that will circulate through the Ren and Du Meridians, also the locations of its awareness will be different too." Teacher of Single Yang

More here: http://all-dao.com/heavenly-circle.html

MCO has different meanings depending on which school you follow.

Keep in mind that Zhou tian in Daoism refers to the universe, and so the small orbit is the representation of the universe in the body.  The big orbit is the actual universe of things.   Lu Dongbin said in his poem Qi Yan "the universe moves by itself without the help of any outside source."  This tells us a lot about how the xiao zhoutian (small heavenly orbit) works in Daoism.  Non action has to be achieved for it to begin opening.

Formally yes, but what is nonaction-wuwei in terms of yuanqi? Before non-action, people have to practice the "action", meaning they need to act somehow to replenish yuan jing, make it full, only then small heavenly circle will start move.

This is a big difference between modern meditations focusing on lower abdomen, and the traditional Neidan exercises. When yuan jing is full, students become renxian (human immortal). Obviously, by starring at the belly button nobody could achieve that. 

The other thing is that it is a gradual process which happens over the course of many years.  To achive it, you really have to master non action and action without action, otherwise it will never become unblocked and clear.

From traditional Neidan point of view it looks strange. First we "unblock and clear" by the action of yuan qi, which has to be activated in a special way by actions of the body and will. Then we need to restore yuan jing, again using action. Then we form the lower dantian. Then Small Heavenly Circle starts on it own. Wuwei comes later, when spirit-Shen changes.

In terms of using Qi gong to open the orbit, this is a totally different concept, since Qi Gong is using post heaven Qi to wash the orbit, rather than meditation which focuses on pre heaven Qi (actually, this Qi is a totally different Chinese character and has no relationship with the one used in Qi gong).

Right, but except that, Du and Ren vessels have different location in Neidan, so even the trajectory of moving the True Water is different. But in books there is very little about it...

Daeluin:

You don't need to work with post heaven material before learning pre heaven material.

Opening the Yinqiao meridian can be done direclty through seated meditation.  At the time when the pre heaven Jing circulates through the body (yuan jing) it will also begin to accumulate in the yinqiao.    One of the biggest things to notice when the yinqiao begins to open is that the testicles contract (naturally) and the area around the prostate begins to move on its own.  This happens around the same time as "He Che," or the water cart, when the Jing begins to rise within the body.  

well, such things usually happen during postheaven work in seated positions, basically that's what people name "meditation" nowadays. Yinqiao is important, but when it's open, the results are much more powerful then just "testicles contract and prostate begins to move". It seems you speak about yinqiao in terms of TCM and qigong, because in Neidan even its location is different, and results of opening it are overwhelming, so nobody cares about "prostate moving" )))

Also, there are some people who are trying to open yinquao on their own, by books and without teacher's control: if they have success in what they do, they will simply die very quickly. Yinqiao is not a toy, if it opens, then students have to know how to deal with all extensive changes in their body.

Lots of people do both jing gong (post heaven work) and neidan together, so do I, but there is no specific requirement for it.

And most of the people who do it, get only changes in their postheaven energy channels and vessels. Traditional Neidan doesn't work with postheaven jing intentionally. It's a mistake there, and many exercises are performed to avoid such mistake.

  If you read Chinese, you should have a look at the book Dao De Jing Chan wei, as it is the best classic explaining pre birth training for those who haven't practiced it yet.  What you are talking about is a popular idea in some parts of the Northern school, but it was never advocated by Lu Dongbin, Zhang Boduan, Yin Xi, or any of the other big names in Neidan.  It is a specific belief held among some groups of people in Daoism, but it doesn't represent the big picture of Daoism.

What you describe as "seated meditation" is more close to Northern school method, but many important things are missed, so such "meditation" becomes more a psychotherapy and spontaneous qigong (when postheven moves on its own), and can't get to the stage of replenishing yuan jing, which is the beginning of Neidan.

Ancient Chan and original Quanzhen Qiao use dazuo differently, so the results are way different.

Liu Dongbin, Zhang Boduan and other big names in Neidan have never advocated any "seated meditation".

In southern schools their methods have been preserved completely, it's not the same as Northern school, but for sure it's not about dazuo, seated meditation, wuwei as "relax and do nothing" and other modern allusions on Daoism.

I also suggest looking into the work of Chen Yingning and Hu Haiya, since they write in much more modern language which is easier to understand.

 

leth:

Do you read Chinese?  You should get the book "xian xue," immortality study by Chen Yingning.  If you can't find it, you can get the book of his student, Hu Haiya, who basically collected all of Chen's essays and explained them.  Xian Xue is by far the easiest to understand school in Daoism and it also includes TCM, so I suspect it would be right up your alley  :)

Chen Yingning was a good scholar, educated etc, but what's about practical results?

I think for any research in Daoism we can rely only on opinions of masters who achieved high stages of Dao cultivation, became xian-immortals (shenxian and higher), or we're doomed to believe in various fantasies and keep illusions that postheaven MCO is the same as Neidan MCO as in this topic.

 

Whether there are classes  of ways , some superb, some inferior , in Taoist cultivation is a controversial issue, however,  because of  its importance, we can't ignore it .

 

In reality , there are  different classes of ways in Taoist practice .  Roughly speaking , we can divide them into  low, middle and  top classes . The criterion start from where  and how  we can initialize qi  ,  what quality  of  it  and how it is accumulated, up to whether we can upgrade  it to Shen and  the ways how we  well tune their relation..etc. 

 

Low class  of  ways (下品) :  these ways , more precisely speaking are  methods ( 術 ) that look trivial ; those  you can  easily come   across   in books, megazine or online ;  methods such  as counting  numbers to settle your mind,  paying attention to your breathing , massaging  certain acupoints or  singing spells ..etc   all belong to this category.  Many of them can be classified  as  methods of medical qigong .

 

Middle class of ways  (中品):  ways that ask you to pay attention to your lower dantian , focus  your mind on  upper dantian ,  visualize  something,  or absorb sun's yang from outside ..etc  all belong  to this category. Although  these ways are not that  bad and always effective to certain extent  , the strength  of how  hard   you use  your  mind  is always  the  problem of them  . For example , too strong a focus on the upper dantian can lead to high blood  pressure ,and , an inappropriate use of mind on lower dantian can give rise to  repeated nocturnal  leakage of  jing..etc.

 

 

Top class of ways (上品) : these ways are always difficult  to follow at initial stage , and their benefits emerge only after your having practiced them for years . They are those ways  tell you to start by paying attention to the emptiness  outside of your body   ( i.e. the way  of the West School  ),  or  by focusing  your mind on  nowhere ,  or  by visualizing something then nullifying its content..etc.

 

They are the ways having a unique character that leads  you to genuine  forever youth, yet seldom can you come across them in your lifetime.

again, visualization and attention tricks don't lead to immortality or Dao.

In teaching the dao to others, how is this any different? The teacher I follow leads and guides us, but is careful not to force us to do anything. Different people hear the transmission in different ways, and those with good ears learn much from the example set by the teacher. In this way there is no need to turn away those without "destiny", for only those who are changing their destiny will be able to hear. This can be applied to Wen as well, and does not require use of force, but rather can invite the necessary spirit to awaken to the overcoming of a challenge.

True teacher teaches from heart to heart, not by words. Those who have no destiny will never find such a teacher, so there is no such thing as "turn away".

This is just an example. There are many ways. Here, I am teaching philosophy, principles. How do I know if this is good or bad? How do I know if this is a synchronistic reply invited by a very weak connection to ziran, rather than ego? I don't. In fact it is likely mostly ego, the whole thing.

then it's necessary to practice more before teaching others. Any advise to another person, even on a forum, has to come not from somebody's ego. If it's not like that, then it's better not to advise at all. That's why I'm so against different self-proclaimed false schools: because what they teach is just dangerous and destroy people's destiny. Why they are false? Because there is no transmission from heart to heart, so the founders have no De of the past.

All of this could be perverted in some way that undermines my entire intent. But I take care to avoid force, I take care to lead others in a direction I hope will lead to a greater increase in their connection to their own natural dao, in their own way. I take care to avoid saying there is only one way. My intention is to point at the dao so that others are free to connect to it in their own way. Here on the internet there are too many types of people to know which school of cultivation is best for each person's destiny, so it is best to stick to what is able to adapt to all of them.

right, but you agree that their choice have to be safe for them? So it's better to stick to something, that works for all. Any traditional Neidan school has methods for different kind of people. But it's not the teaching adapts, but the teacher has to choose, because the teacher has De to do that. What you suggest is different, you're trying to give people some misty philosophy that adapts to them, because everybody understands it differently. Such thing already exists and its name is "new-age Taoism". Has it anything in common with Dao schools of the past? With Lao Zi? With Huangdi? Obviously no.

 thanks to confirm I'm right about you, quantumdragon

i am surprised he has not resorted to his usual tactics of claiming that you said something somewhere that you never said at all. it is probably becoz you have too few posts now on this forum and it could be easily checked. once you start accumulating more posts--expect this tactic from OD. you have already seen his behavior and insults. it doesnt take long, for sure. 

I am glad that daeluin started a new thread i will check it out ---i wonder if the Wei Wu Wei section would not have been a place to consider placing the new thread?

the only reason i wandered back up to this section (long poisoned imo by a handful of trolling hijackers) is becoz the thread was started by Cheya and i am always interested in what she is finding interesting. for some reason OD has been allowed to insult individual members and the forum at large ever since his arrival here. my biggest mistake as mod, when i was one, was not banning him, i certainly had the just cause,,he hasnt got any better from my view of one thread, well carry on OD, i will leave the section --you are free to troll, insult, accuse , and so forth, i reckon

Btw how is Xiao Yao Pai, why you've stopped promoting it?

And don't be so upset, it's bad for your heart: you can ban me now, even twice, maybe it will release that negativism you've collected by writing things you didn't really understand   I hoped you've changed since that, so why you're destroying my last hope in human intelligence?

Btw, I have to say thank you, because when the amount of false teaching on this forum is reducing, many people, esp newbies, are happy. Now we know you were involved and haven't banned me when on Tao Bums people could see a dozen competing false schools. I'm serious here, thank you. I hope you don't want to return those times, right?

If you understand people's nature as such, why do you respond to this nature in ways that will cause reactions that don't appear to be beneficial to them or yourself?

maybe it doesn't appear, but it is beneficial. If people are Yin, they need Yang to wake-up. And vice versa. That's how balance can appear in the society. It's Wen. But what kind of balance can be in a society, where evil people say that Yang is Yin and Yin is Yang? So to stop such people is also beneficial. It is Wu. When people's practice improves, it's beneficial for me as well.

I'm not really sure who is weak or not, and am not attached to absolutes anyway. Weak today, strong tomorrow.... who knows?

the reality knows very well: if weak, people decline, unfortunate and die, if strong - they flourish, auspicious and enter the sainthood. Very simple from the energy standpoint.

Yes, I agree, to the principle at least.

 

My point is that if we are sincere in cultivating to a higher level, we increasingly work toward letting go of examining and seeking. There are enough ripples already returning to us from our past seeking and examining - won't forcefully creating more just put off our achievement of a higher level?

if a person follows Dao as prescribed by his/her Teacher, there is no necessity to "work toward letting go of examining and seeking" or worry about "ripples". Same as karma, all that things will be dissolved in one perfect moment, just by doing proper methods. The more we think about how to behave "right", the more we behave "wrong". Because of the ShiShen. 

and last one (I hope) about "astral visits": naive people think that Shen could exit the body, goes through a plumbing tube, and the owner of that shen would be still unaware about it. It is so lame. When Shen exits the body, the impact on the body is SO big, it is so scary, and it has no relation to fantasies of "astral travellers" like Castaneda or Monroe. So don't disgrace yourself, you don't know what it is in the reality, and I really wish you not to experience it in your life. It's dangerous, not pleasant and can lead to a premature death...

Ok, how about the cantong qi, which refers to the daodejing:

Superior Virtue

 

"Superior Virtue has no doing":

It does not use examining and seeking

"Inferior Virtue does":

Its operation does not rest.

It has no any relation to "scanning", "astral visits" or any other energy interchange between people. I hope you don't understand "examining and seeking" as "psychic reading"? haha, I bet you do...

The phrase is about that on a high level, when Superior Virtue comes through the practice, the adept doesn't need to use Shishen, the consciousness mind, which "examines and seeks", to act in the world. That's why its called Wuwei, which I leave without any translation for now. Lower Virtue is not enough for this mechanism to work properly, that's why Shishen "operates without rest", and people can't stop thinking even in sleep.

 "Men and Women are equal, the Women's Elixir quicker (to be  obtained)".

 

A modern Daoist master says in his explainations of this sentence that: "in the front of the great Dao, everybody is equal so there is no distinction between Men and Women, through practice all are able to cultivate the fruit of the authentic Dao. What is called immortality cultivation ignore gender differences therefore there is no male supremacy. "

so right. Now we see continuous attempts to change from male supremacy to female supremacy. From Daoist point of view, it is the same dis-balance, caused by yin life style throughout last generations. Man becomes too Yin, woman becomes too Yang. Daoist Alchemy is needed to create the balance, but it has to be a Right Method, which gives Yang to man, and Yin to woman. 

When we label things as "delusional fantasies," it projects judgment onto others who might be inclined to defend against these labels. And then we have yet another judgment preventing healthy progress and discussion.

 

On the other hand, if we are able to remain objective, perhaps we can point out the temporary nature of such astral patterns, and that attaching too much meaning to them can prohibit progress forward. If we are tactful, and avoid forcing things, perhaps we can gently lead the conversation to a healthy direction away from such attachments.

maybe, but even you don't follow your own philosophy 

Obviously, all the time people have to say "yes" or "no", the moment of choice is in every single moment. They can't all the time answer "perhaps". But pseudo taoists "flow with the flow" thinking they are "redirecting the power"... They don't get they are just Yin, and there is no any balance between Yang and Yin in their "everybody is equal" passive attitude. I tried to tell it by explaining the _traditional_ principle of Wen and Wu, but it seems without a practice modern people can't grasp it: because their Yang is so weak, their Ming is so unfortunate...

Do you see what choice you do at this moment? Is it Yin, Yang or do you feel their real balance? It's important. The proper sate is in the middle between external activity and internal silence. Who is weak doesn't have it obviously. Neidan is about this balance, that's why it is so important to return Yang and continue the fate. It is one of the real signs on the Way, not some stupid "psychic reading" performed by weak old people...

As for the "visit", this idea that opendao scanned quantumdragon seems perfectly logical to me. Maybe it didn't happen, maybe it did. Who knows? If it happened, and quantumdragon had enough skill to see this as it unfolded, and the connection having been made, make her own scan.... well this too seems perfectly logical.

sorry, but you obviously have no any idea what you're talking about, that's why it is so logically for you. And don't refer to DDJ: there is nothing like that in Dao De Jing which can lead to such false views. 

Thus, quantumdragon's observation on your energy field sounds correct.  

 LOL, Xuanming has worked long just to say that.   

I thought that Opendao has deep experience and understanding on this area as a pre-heaven practitioner.  It seems that I totally overvalued your internal cultivation.  You might not have experienced such phenomena yet—perhaps you may experience such phenomena later when your pre-heaven practice is at more advanced level (s). 

 

 

Why you think the field of qi is De?  You said that “people do it constantly in the real life, and nobody complains.” You mean people do it constantly in the real life consciously or unconsciously?  Are you scanning people constantly in real life without their permission? 

I don't talk to manipulators and words joggling people in the real life as with good people, so I don't do it here. You already found all answers to your questions about me, long before I've started to answer. With such pre assumptions and inability to hear anything, and obvious attempts to play games here, I don't think it's worth to discuss with you. You can continue evaluate and overvaluate, but let's be sincere: your opinion has no any support nor in texts, nor in Tradition, nor in reality. Sure I'm "emotionally unstable", "mighty warrior", "loosing energy", "not as experienced" and haven't even started any practice at all. I've heard it hundred times before. But for some reasons people, constantly repeating that for years, still got nothing at all and cannot explain even simple things in Neidan. Strange, ah? And you disregard any scriptures which contradict your qigong experience, dodging all the time to do personal insults and "valuations". Think about it, if you can, before criticising others just in sake to promote something here.

Are you really still  talking about  your hurt feelings? EMO much?  Goodness  Child you are   sensitive boy. Let us move on. I do not have hurt feeling over all you have said  about me. You are still hurling insults at me. We are our beloved moderators when men do this??? Have you read the book that is the Title of the this thread? Have you commented yet on your personal experience of the training described in the book? Hint it is not just for women...SURPRISE!  I would love to hear your commentary on your own personal experiences practicing the exercises outline in the poem Taming the Dragon.  If you need help decoding these I will help you. They are a poetic version of your beloved scripture. 

with you and your company any discussions are over, reasons have been disclosed more then once. Don't start again, then you won't get your feelings hurt.

If other real people have any questions about the poems (not about the book), I will answer, if I can help, of course. But basically, to learn Sun Bu Er's legacy, one have to be a woman and be in the lineage of her school. Such people obviously don't need my comments ))) But I would be very fortunate to talk to them. And not only me...

Hi Daeluin, as I was walking today this topic came to my mind, so I is probable that my hun had wandered today, visiting taobums of afar. As I was pondering about the thread, I thought that as you have now two psychic readings it could be fair and good to have two in person testimonies. So I will tell you my experience and that of a fellow student.

I begin with my fellow's one because he has reiki training and knows energy readings. He told me, in Saint Petersbug, that he felt as a "motherly caring vibe coming from the chief instructor" in charge of our training during the online trainings. There, in Russia he doens't change at all thing impresion, on the contrary we (me and other fellow) said that this is true, and provided some anecdotes, of those days training there. So, there you have a double testimony, first psychic reading and then personal meeting.

In my case, in can say that I have not felt any scaning sub rosa and the qi relation was that of an exchange between student and teacher (and, of course, this is bad for the teacher, my qi is not good at all), besides I have experienced healthy effects beyond those that you could expect from the training. The training has healthy effects, but there was more, like an energy healing. And this was result of the teacher's energy work following the technical procedures of the school.

Finally, I should add that we went not (to the trainig in Russia) as believers but as sceptics, following numberless Opendao's advices about the importance of an actitude of scepticism. So, we went there with an analytical eye, even if we already had good results from the online training, we needed to see and evaluate for ourselves. I we are more than happy to be there training Yuxianpai and Wuliupai.

Now you have real physical world testimonies.

Thanks. It's interesting, and I really glad you felt the most important things )) But I have to say that the "field of qi" in special places and from teachers is one thing, scanning others by thinking about them (or by analysing what they write)  - another. The field of qi is De. The scanning is an attribute of Shishen - cognition. Field of qi cannot be evil by definition. Scanning cannot be dangerous: people do it constantly in the real life, and nobody complains, so Daeluin has his/her own opinion here which is hard to understand from the traditional point of view... I got used to that though )) 

But obviously all that have no relation to quantumdragon's fantasies about ghosts in her bath tube, and various allusions to yinshen practice, which, as you know, is not used in our School at all. Obviously, she describes just her fantasies. I'm ok with that until such fantasies are not used as a weapon against other people, as it had happen here against Taoist Texts and myself. Girls got some feedback, but I really don't see any reasons to allow such behaviour from anyone, even if gender "is not specified" ))

Honestly, all these talks about "energy vampires" and "the forum member sucked my energy" are ridiculous illusions. The real ghosts do their affairs in a very different way :-( It seems people here are lucky not to know it. And it's very good. 

Speaking about women alchemy, nobody stops anyone here to discuss, but the published excerpt raises a lot of questions, and the company here has no answers to them, so they start their "psychic reading" to protect their world view. It's not new, but strange to accuse me or other men when they disrespect scriptures and wise words of real Teachers, written in such texts, when these words don't fit their world view...

I leave you  fellows with one last observation. I , a retired woman, mother of 7, grandmother of 3, 120 lbs. with words alone lead Opendao's  energy, a self proclaimed mighty warrior, into an uncentered flailing frenzy leaking Yuan Qi by the  buckets. If I were truly evil I would  "steal" his energy instead of just lead his energy. I have not done this act of stealing. I do not need to. I create new  Qi, Essence, Refined Jing everyday in my practice. 

Old people are like kids, living in a fantasy world.

I feel absolutely good, so again it's just your personal false belief, which has no substance, nor arguments to discuss.

This is an experiment for me. I want to see how long my detached observations about you will keep you  leaking vital qi. I do not ask you to  be in a frenzy, swinging wildly at the wind. I just watch you under the microscope seeing if you will react or hold your center. So far all emotion no de.  

so hshe confirms hshe is a troll and experiments here with definite evil purposes. De? No, just a devil mind and manipulations.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Do we have any moderators on duty or all they can do is to cover trolls and liars in their protected separated topics, where they can advertise freely and continue their evil experiments on forum participants? Rhetoric questions, obviously.

Visiting each other's houses by entering through toilets? 

can you imagine? I can't. Totally insane. And they speak something about De... Even usual ethic seems to be something unreachable for them   Sad all that, very sad.

the MALE you just addressed as  Darling I have met in my  travels studying Taoism. Xuanming is a male definately no doubts there. 

from the beginning of the thread: "Xuanming  who ever you are your time spent here will not be wasted by me." (quantumdragon)  I really don't care who you're girls (or guys) but what you wrote is insanely hilarious, and very insightful about the obstacles women have on their Way. Thanks, I need know no more.

My goodness, Opendao shows  his postnatal state as a six year old  schoolyard bully reduced in  frustration to name calling and cursing.  I imagine if this were real life on the playground he would pull some  girls pigtails to make them cry. Well we here are not in the least  uncenter or intimidated by  you OD. And as for you great intuitive leap..... the MALE you just addressed as  Darling I have met in my  travels studying Taoism. Xuanming is a male definately no doubts there.  I assure you now with my regular eyes he is not Ms. Gonet. I have never met Ms. Gonet. I have seen a picture of her in one of her many publications. Jill Gonet is definitely a woman. Boooo! Yin Ghost we are not afraid of you. 

go back to your playground,  nobody would believe a word you say, after all your insane fantasies about me, my visit to you (lie), and about our school scanning you (lie). I'd rather believe my intuition then to someone lying and hallucinating. And stop trolling the only topic you'd like to show off in.

Which is just principle at the end of the chapter on the five phases. But in application, mutliple texts I refer to apply this principle to achieve the "reverted elixir", which is named for the way it is created - by taking the flow of the xiantian into houtian and reversing it so that the houtian returns to the xiantian.

 

In any case, it would be nice for you to rest your opinion. You have made it very clear, and we appear to disagree.

yes, obviously you didn't get what I tend to say by many direct words and indirect hints, and what texts clearly state. But I don't write it for you, I know you won't change your opinion. I write for others.