opendao

Because in this thread I see nothing about what Wuwei really means in DDJ and in Neidan, and also some weird statements about "wuwei meditation", I'm reposting a quote made by Daeluin. Maybe somebody will get that it has no relation for numerous guesses and confusions made about wuwei...

Pointless. You obviously don't know the difference and rely just on names in 2 different texts written in different times by different people. Read the text, it clearly states what the author meant to say: Now it's your turn: find in Wu-Liu texts what they consider as "pair perfection" and "external alchemy". Only then you can compare and make any conclusions.

You can do whatever your tradition thinks would be helpful to "purify the mind". Your tradition has to have a lineage, a teacher and texts that would help you to understand that. But Neidan doesn't "purify the mind". The mind (shishen) is not an object of transformation :-) So Neidan doesn't see any point "to sit while the mind is purified".... Sitting work (not "meditation") is used when there is no mind. What Daoist Chinese word you can suggest for "connect to the Source"? You're free to read the most comfortable way. But the texts were written or for students, who received the methods directly from their teachers, or for those who is constantly looking to learn directly from a teacher. So the texts speak a lot about principles and achievements, but they don't disclosure methods. Neidan's compassion is to teach people in person, and make texts that help people to find a school and a teacher. Nobody will reveal your doubts here. People from different schools are giving you some advices here, but all the rest you have to do by yourself. In Neidan the reading of the texts is necessary, but to find a teacher is much more important.

When you use such words, you need to prove them. This thread is about classical text respected in the Neidan tradition. So, mr guru, please continue your thick thought and say that Lu Dongbin "disguisedly propagandises his shysters patent system"... Then prove it. Don't forget to reveal your position in Neidan, your lineage and so on. Same question for other critics. That's so interesting to watch how people react on true words about false methods ... They have nothing to say, just emotions start to jump high and words go out with no control.

there is no single word here about "neigong". In Neidan qigong is not considered to be necessary to facilitate the process. There are some preliminary exercises for that but they are based not on qigong principles.

Methods were not written, that's what was told but you don't see it. "Important points" were written and there is nothing to argue here. And for sure you know so little, even about Wu Chongxu, so it's better not to reveal your ignorance. The school was created not based on any texts, but on the direct transmission from Longmen, plus Wu Chongxu has learnt methods from _many_ other schools, directly of course, not from texts as you claim in your ignorance.

I've read your blog because I was feeling you're not so profane and secular as your words... Do you really know who is the author of this text? Do you know that this statement have a clear meaning for anyone who knows the history of Wu Chongxu? I think you were in a big rush and just skipped something important...

I'm awaiting when you reveal your wisdom about "taoist texts you have some knowledge about". But I see just a sarcasm without any substance... Is it all you can do? Not good to begin with, I would say.

For most people it's the same as to eat everything they see in a buffet... It can lead to a chaos and big confusions :-\

jing in Neidan is not physical at all in Neidan schools, if done correctly, then refining Qi into Shen is not a beginning at all. It's a very high stage (3rd out of 4). So you speak about something unrelated to Neidan. Really? Maybe you forgot to tell them and they know nothing about it... Even if you jump over your head using any external help, and activate your Shen without refining first Yuan Jing and Yuan Qi, then you won't have anything to work with and will go into a "deadly emptiness" and wouldn't be able to create the Elixir.... Qigong won't help at all, it's all post heaven, it doesn't work with San Bao. Ziran and Wuwei comes on a really high stage, when nobody cares about San Bao any more. So again it's not Wuwei by Lao Zi. Wait, wait! Effiliang spoke so pathetic about Tian Xian as FFS, now we have only your Grand Master Shen's energy... How come? Where is FFS in your description? No FFS any more, ok... What you describe here is a usual process of master-student relationship, it happens in any traditional Chinese art (calligraphy, martial arts etc). It has nothing in common with XYP's statements like "we are unique, we start with Shen, because we ask Lao Zi to provide FFS to every students, and FFS enriches the spirit of the student, that's why we go Shen - Qi - Jing while all Neidan schools traditionally work Jing-Qi-Shen". So there is no Neidan here at all. Maybe somebody wants to experience all these "unique" procedures, but I've eaten it a lot before and I see nothing new... Open any Mantak Chia book, you will see same ... things about Kan-Li, Pre / Post, Divine energy, harmony and effortless wuwei...

But did any of these four know which in the world is the right female attraction? He clearly states that ordinary beings don't know. It means they know nothing right at all, for them everything is relative. But Zhuangzi is not ordinary, he is not in the same list as elks and gibbons, right? So students went to Zhuangzi to not being elks, but to be perfected (zhen)...

it's not true for Neidan. In Neidan nobody wants to end-up in the home you described. Such new-aged approach will lead to an illusion that you understand yourself, but you have no ways to realize if it's true or not, because for you everything enjoyable will be good and will look correct. Such people end up teaching others how to achieve "well-being", but such a goal is not the goal of Neidan, don't mislead people. So Neidan has always put teachers and the authority of tradition to the centre, not somebody's ego full of illusions. Teachers have taught methods, teachers have explained the texts, students worked to transform them selves. If everything is in place then the understanding of oneself will come, but without correct methods and corrections from a knowledgeable teacher such understanding will never come. Yes, just look at history. What results people have achieved in the past, what they were able to do, what books they wrote and so on. And look what we have now with the modern approach "all roads go the same direction". Maybe you like it, up to you. But I prefer the ancient Way. It's a challenge to see the difference, it's a challenge to stop thinking "I can do everything on my own". But people do it sometimes and get real success. And their experience is the same as described in ancient books. I think it's obviously clear why.

success means different things in different paths. You teach qigong & well-being, so maybe it's better do not speculate about paths you haven't ever leant... maybe it's true for you, in qigong there are 100500 schools and no one has any authority, because they all go in different directions. In Neidan texts mean a lot. Different texts have a different value. If you don't understand texts, you will never understand the tradition. And obviously your attitude shows the respect you have to that tradition... If you wan't to argue with immortals, you can bring other texts written by perfected saints of the past, for sure it's not a problem for your grand level, right? You know "acres of them" you said.

I got your point, but I doubt it can be aplied to this specific case based on what I know about the "swallowing saliva" method, how it's described in some texts. But in general yes, you're right, it happens the way you described. People mix methods and results, think that results are methods and eventually lost the truth.

No, saliva swallowing is a quite popular old method, but your text speaks about "saliva producing" which happens on its own.

Don't you find that something is wrong here? If one parts of the text contradicts another part IN YOUR interpretation, then maybe something is wrong with your interpretation? Maybe what you read and interpret as "meditation" and "gathering qi" is ABSOLUTELY different from what is described as false methods? No. It's not the case. In the text you can see clearly that all methods mentioned are false methods. It's not written that they become correct if you mix them together in some way or another, right? And Neidan methods usually don't depend on the practitioner. There are some details, but the method is the same. And the order is the same.

a few comments for the admirers of false schools and fake methods :-) standing meditation and some other qigong exercises are not methods of Neidan according Zhongli Quan dazuo, "sitting silently", mindfulness, "pure awareness" etc are not methods of Neidan according Zhongli Quan breathing another kind of meditation (aka daily training in some schools) are not methods of Neidan according Zhongli Quan breathing again. It's not methods of Neidan according Zhongli Quan That's all Qigong again, not Neidan. I would add Tai Ji Quan in the modern form. "Kindness", "have freedom from craving", "flow with the flow" and other false De (Virtues) are not methods of Neidan as well. ---------------------------------------------- So all methods promoted by numerous Qigong and spiritual teachers nowadays, like meditation, breathing, gymnastics etc are not Neidan and won't give any results described in Neidan texts. It's impossible and misleading to label such methods as "Neidan", "Daoist Alhemy", "Internal Alchemy", "Dandao", "Dadao" etc. Of course, you can try to argue with Zhongli Quan

it has sense, but there is a natural amount of hidden details, and there is a tendency to hide more then needed by fooling people. It's a result of some sects and individuals who try to get some power, money etc by using Neidan's name and terminology. It confuses even those who have a fate to learn Neidan in this life. That's why it's necessary to clean some chaos sometimes. Just to create a balance. Think about Wen and Wu. And the things are changing, now less and less people have skills to read between lines. That's why Dao is much open now. Do you teach Neidan?

If anybody has any questions, that haven't been covered before, feel free to ask. The topic is about XYP, so if you have questions about something else, then ask somewhere else. I will be happy to answer. Have I questioned anyone for any "tangible proofs", "exact and precise answers"? No, I haven't. It has no sense here. So I'm surprised about effilang's behaviour....

Don't you find that you're arguing with the entire tradition of Neidan here? Realized teachers say directly that the initial method has been never disclosed, but you think that meditation is the method. A perfected saint (xian) with thousands of students say directly that meditation is not a method, but you clearly see that he is wrong. Based on what? On random texts you think you understand? On your experience? With the total respect to your humble opinion, are you initiated in any lineage from Lu Dongbin or from Wen Zi? Have you received any Neidan method of any school which texts you are so sure about meaning? It's like Vitalii from Zhen Dao, who claims that Huimingjing is about meditation, but who was never been initiated into Wu-Liu tradition. And Huimingjing is a text made by Wu-Liu. Has his opinion any value for Neidan? Sure doesn't. I wish you the same. Returning to the text, try to apply what I said to the word "meditation" and you would receive a meaning that is not against the tradition... So easy, but I doubt you will do it, so I write mostly to the other people here.

If you want to see any real results, you need to travel and meet people with results. Nobody will satisfy your requests over the Internet. As you probably see, I don't ask to provide proves of results from other cultivators here.... I can say positive about all your questions, but for real proves you need to do much more actions. This is how it works in this world. You are not the first who is sceptical... All such people has changed their mind after visiting my Teacher. About immortality I wrote before, now I don't have any wish to do it. Wrong thread, wrong people

That's all good and I don't see where I said about any reflowing of the text... Anyways, San Bao are accomplished by "purity and tranquillity", but does Lu say a word HOW to get such "purity", so the vitality is not agitating, not leaking and circulating? No. He doesn't tell about the method, just about some signs on the way. It's a trap for people with low De and without a teacher. And it works perfectly to protect the teaching. I understand your point, I've read such sentences the same way as you (and many other people) for a long time, but just imagine for a second that this is not a correct way to read... Same thing, There is a requirement, but how to satisfy it? If you get a method, you would know how it works. Then all such texts will be clear (at least to a certain level). But before you have to know from the texts, how to find a teacher and how to understand if the method is correct. That's where Lu's words are priceless.

Read again my previous post, you didn't get what I meant. Stabilizing vitality has nothing in common with your idea of "one must stabilize and self aware". Do you know what Ming is? Neither xiantian can be repaired using houtian, but people have no way to know and control xiantian. How to solve this puzzle? And yes, this text is cryptic as well as ALL OTHER TEXTS IN NEIDAN tradition. Especially in English translation :-) I didn't say anything about "Lu Dongbin is talking about something entirely beyond the reach of what we're talking about" I said Lu speaks about yuan jing, qi and shen in the stage he describes. And yes, people cannot control them. But the stage is not far from the beginning, so emotions are still there. Then Lu speaks clearly about things that students experience along the practice ("free from craving" etc) and that these signs are important, but for sure "have freedom from craving" is not a method (it's clear even from the English text, just read carefully). Don't be confused here, you won't return yuan jing just by controlling your emotions. I wish it would be so simple, but in reality there are a lot of people who can control their emotions and houtian qi, but they have no results even for the first level of Neidan. But they are very good people... Another thing: the initial METHOD of Neidan HAS NEVER BEEN written in any book! So don't follow the logic of scientist who think that everything is in books, and all phrases like "be gentle, don't drink, have no sex, have no emotions" are refer to any Neidan methods. One more: Jing - Qi - Shen schema is not about what WORKS, but about what is RESTORED OR REFINED. I speak about basics that people here continuously and intentionally say obviously wrong. Sure they don't like it, but I'm not trying to please them though... Do you want to be between them, and just complain to moderators about my eccentric behaviour? Or do you want to reveal your confusions, prove your correctness and understand Dao the way real Teachers (not me, of course, real patriarchs and high level masters) understand it? It's for you to decide. So far you're not there, as I see it from your posts.

You missed one small detail: Lu speaks about preheaven jing and preheaven shen (because it's Neidan text), but effilang suggests to start with postheaven Shen and then merge postheaven Shen-qi-jing, so this quote couldn't help to support his ideas. Those who have eyes can read even in this small quote that Neidan starts with Ming-vitality, and the real transformation starts with the energy, not with the spirit as you suggest by playing with passive-active. Students don't have any access to their Shen in the beginning, as well as to their Qi (yuan qi of course which you cannot feel using qigong), so the method is based on absolutely different principles and that's what make it so hard to reinvent. Again, neither xiantian can be repaired using houtian, but people have no way to know and control xiantian. How to solve this puzzle? Harmonious Emptiness, how long you will continue to make your guesses based on playing with words? You've read a lot, maybe it's time to look for a teacher? Rhetoric question, I know. But I really hope you will do it one day.

Ask zerostao, it's his idea, not mine About zerostao's "all others schools recruit here": it's not true. XYP and Zhen Dao recruit and promote the most, but other schools - not really. I don't mind, but let's keep things clear. You're dodging again. I explained many times that I write not about your methods, but about your theories. I can speculate about your methods, but about your theories I have a direct experience - your own words. Or do you want to say that you lie in the Internet, but during 2 days of initiation you will tell to newbies the correct things that don't contradict Neidan? I hope you're not so low. I'm not an admirer of Liu Yiming, but please quote his words about it. I have some doubts, cough-cough. Especially about San Bao in this context. Sorry, but again you don't understand what is Pre Heaven and Post Heaven. Kan, Li, birth of Yang - that's all about Pre Heaven. I see that this info is not in popular books, and I think it wasn't translated in English yet, but on your level you have to understand that. There is another important thing about "birth of Yang" regarding Kan and Li, but it's not in the books, so let's continue... In many many many Neidan books it's written clearly: neither Houtian substance can restore Xiantian treasures. Sure, people in traditional schools know it from the direct experience, but here we don't see it. I don't recall anybody who speaks about unity in the context of "doing" and "building the foundation" phase... This is Qigong. Modern Qigong, nothing more. The process of restoring yuan jing in Neidan is much more hard, complex and is set on absolutely different principles. Shen as the consciousness is not used, and Qi will be refined ("produced") later, so we cannot really speak about San Bao in this context at all. But your description is correct for Qigong. I hope I don't need to repeat about the difference between Qigong and Neidan? And at this stage you can experience breathless state, right? Then it's Qigong again, not Neidan :-) Same for light. A lot of people can achieve that without any teachers or even books or FFS of any kind. The immortal embryo is not a result of the mix of post and pre celestial. Does anybody on this forum knows what is the Real Unity? What polarities are merged? Liu Yiming writes correct things, but you don't. When you described Yangshen, I thought you know where postcelestial is used, at least on what stage, but here you revealed my doubts. There is no such thing as "true Yin" in the context of "true unity". Tip: think about daoist names: Chongyang, Danyang etc. And in Taiji your first unity cannot happen by definition (of Taiji). If it would be so, then all people could live forever and achieved Neidan's heights easily. But in reality it's not like that. Neidan provides the answer why it happens and solutions for that. ------------------------------------------------------- As a conclusion: again there are a lot of ideas, that cannot be supported by the practice of Neidan in traditional schools, nor by classical books used in such schools. When I say that, I refer both to classical books and patriarchs of the schools I am fortunate to learn from. I really thankful to them and to my Teacher for the rare opportunity to understand directly at least the basics of Neidan. Dao teaching is a true science, with a lot of details and hidden aspects. It needs a high accuracy, commitment and intelligence. It's passed by from masters to a few students. But again, the method of all true Neidan schools is the same. And the results are the same. And it doesn't depend on "our differences in psychological, energetic, physical and spiritual make up"... But the basics are open now, and in the future I hope all traditional Teachers, as well as my brothers and sisters in different schools, will change the situation and will give a chance to more people to understand what Neidan is and what it is not. I'm constantly doing my humble efforts, I hope it will help somebody the same way, as it helped me when I've read true words about Neidan from my Teacher long time ago. Peace.