opendao

steve has already pointed out that it's wrong. I would add that this: practice (v.) c. 1400, "to do, act;" early 15c., "to follow or employ; to carry on a profession," especially medicine, from Old French pratiser, practiser "to practice," alteration of practiquer, from Medieval Latin practicare "to do, perform, practice," from Late Latin practicus "practical," from Greek praktikos "practical" (see practical). From early 15c. as "to perform repeatedly to acquire skill, to learn by repeated performance;" mid-15c. as "to perform, to work at, exercise." Related: Practiced; practicing. So Neidan can be practised in English language, because it's a process of repeated attempts to create the cinnabar-Dan, which again on its own is an alive process, not some dead object. Obviously, because you don't practice it, you don't know. Instead of asking, you create ridiculously pedantic theory. I wish you were so pedantic when you misread that Eva Wong's text and read other texts upside down just to be not like anyone else. Don't worry, you're already proved many times that are absolutely unique. The process is called 炼丹: "make pills of immortality (as a Taoist practice)". You know TTexts, there are special big books called dictionaries... Open at least one and you will find dozens of names. Again zero. It seems we won't see any strong arguments...

just fyi, that's very different from the Daoist tradition, where women have the same possibilities to stop loosing jing, as men. And the lost of semen or blood is not the only way how yuan jing is lost, so again, from women alchemy point of view, the celibacy cannot be the main method.

Neidan, Waidan and pair cultivation are based on the same principles. And if one text uses "neidan" = "sexual techniques", it means very little. There are many texts that separate Neidan and pair cultivation, and express that pair cultivation is not the same as sexual techniques ("art of the bedchamber"). Some praise Neidan as a single cultivation and discard pair cultivation at all. Because they couldn't find the method. But let's wait, I hope we'll see something more "fantastic" that can prove that Neidan sucks and TTexts has discovered a real "internal alchemy that works".

I wish it were so easy... How any text can confirm the following sentences from your previous post? > Immortal Master Lu transmited book with instructions about Wai Dan to Masters on Jingai Shan > Jingai branch practice real Nei Dan so how to check if it's a real Neidan / Waidan or not, sitting in front of the computer or in a library? I believe anybody needs to travel, be accepted as a student, learn everything from inside, get some practical results then some conclusions can be made... Has any scholar did that? What he/she did achieve so we can trust his or her opinion? That's are questions we need to address if we want to find any truth, in my opinion. Textual and historical researches are useful, but only as a first step. Right, there is no contradiction. And they live separately without any problems as well. Students don't need to know Neidan to master Waidan, and Waidan knowledge is not needed to master Neidan. It can help, but let's be realistic: it's very rare people have a fate to learn both.

you skipped, as usual, one important detail: false methods are bad because their practitioners can't attain Dao, Neidan is good, because its methods give people a chance to attain Dao. With the false methods there is no chance, even if you cured all your maladies. probably sometimes, not for all and not all methods.... no Some confused individuals really think that there are some methods that you can hear about once (or even better - read about it in a comic book), then don't practice at all and get a result... And they make a conclusion about "absolute majority of the practitioners" based on that? Funny. The "absolute majority" usually don't practice at all. Even if they know the method, they think it's enough, and they are already immortals. Or they receive the method, but then change it for some stupid reasons. That's why the success rate is low, not because "Neidan doesn't work". It works fine for those who diligently practice right methods. Others try to invent some "pseudo internal alchemy" which has no relation to Neidan and Dao teaching, or try to find other excuses to convince they are not fooling themselves. Miserable, shallow and secular approach. But obviously, nothing new.

I understand your point, but what you name as "minor methods" has no real relation to what the text speaks about... There is a very important note in the text, what is the result of the false methods: "Under no circumstances wanted to cultivate and fulfil the Great Dao, outshone their contemporaries, only cared about the happiness and avoidance of failures, did not believe in innermost secrets and only multiplied the wealth and neglected their fate, thus heading to turn into devils (ghost)". The author describes how the Dao was lost for many people, and what forms such deviation can have. He speaks nothing about any benefits, it's not a topic of his speech. Also the methods listed are not even in results. Some can cure illnesses, other can do nothing. It doesn't really matter. What is important is the key we receive from the text: how to distinguish correct method of the Great Dao from its imitations. You're speaking about mundane arts, which are not the scope of this text fragment.

I'm very happy for you, keep arguing to yourself. The time will show who is right. All arguments have been given, who could read them and understand, they are already practising and are able to distinguish stupid fantasies from first-hands experience. Others are tilting at windmills. Their fate, their choice, nobody cares.

usual troll comedy is becoming a tragedy

So what? You and TT were saying that the picture represents genitals and "the end of leakage", trying to prove that it means the celibacy, and that "leakage" is a physical leak of semen. Now you quote about "not rising and moving" the penis, but you don't even bother that the text speaks about the stage when the leakage is already stopped... Again, you wrote that the celibacy can return yuan jing, that leakage is a physical leak, and by the celibacy it is possible to "stop the leakage". That's all doesn't work. As well as "swallowing the saliva". Btw, if you compare what you've suggested so far with the list from http://thedaobums.com/topic/35815-minor-schools-and-inconsistent-methods-from-zhong-l-chuan-dao-ji/#entry569095 you can see that you've tried almost everything. Now TT wants you to try "bedroom arts" (I sustain from any jokes here), but it's also in the list.

the text from the first page speaks nothing about Waidan. You can check the Chinese characters and understand what exactly was translated as "External Alchemy". About Waidan, as I already mentioned, there are a few paragraphs in the whole text. Try to find them, it should be even in the Wong's translation. Everything else you wrote about schools needs many years to prove, by visiting various masters, comparing texts, practising various methods. Waidan still exists, but it's really rare.

sure it's subjective and based on the person's level until you find a teacher and start practising. Then, when you see what he has already achieved, you trust his opinion about your level, and it becomes less subjective. It just takes time, many students have no patience for that. I wrote also about personal achievements. This is an important criteria. If you get yuan jing restored, and it's exactly as your teacher says and books describe, then probably everything is good. When you reach next stages, then it'll be more obvious and objective. there are a lot before that, starting with the preliminary exercises, how they affect the health and emotions. It's also unusual, and can be seen from outside. Usually people just don't know what to look for. They are full of illusions about "flying magicians", but how do they know how a real Neidan master looks like, if there are just scares descriptions in books? No photos, no videos )) Even translations give very little, because they are made by people without any direct understanding. But it has been like that all the time, almost all masters have mentioned difficulties in searching their teachers. yes, that's why in Neidan masters speak little about experiences, but they praise achievements. Experiences are temporary, achievements are something people have for a while, they are solid, objective and very unusual.

“大道无形、无名、无问、无应其大无外，其小无内。莫可得而知也，莫可得而行也！” You rely on a mistranslation made by Eva Wong, but the phrase is so simple, and it has nothing about "practice" or "attaining the Dao". She doesn't even care that the sense of such translated phrase contradicts the meaning of the entire text... The phrase just claims that Dao has no inside boundaries (无内), nor outside (无外). So there is no way to reach-得 these boundaries by knowledge-知, inside, or by physical walking-行, outside. So the sense you're having so much fun, is just your's, and Madame Wong's, of course, imagination. You wrote: are you serious? Usually she just kicks off everything she can't translate. You've asked about "Symptoms disappearance", but she just didn't translate that! her variant, try to find 绝迹 here, it's supposed to be between "drawing in the testicles" and "studying the scriptures":

And there is nothing here about "side doors", so see my previous post about mixing Low/High De and "side doors"/dadao Strange conclusion... It's not about any lineage, it's about the simple fact that "side doors" have no systematic knowledge about xiantian Qi. So they cannot lead people to Dao, they don't know the "mechanism". It's not about misuse: even if you practice side methods absolutely correct, you're not going toward the Great Dao. and it is great not because of its size ))) I prefer to believe in schools that produce xian-immortals. This is the only fact that can say they are true or not... Though it's possible to get harm from any method, it doesn't prove your idea that we can use any method and believe we're going in a right direction. And here the discussion is about a very simple thing: that most of the methods, taught nowadays, are in the list of false methods by such masters as Zhongli Quan, Wei Boyang or Zhang Boduan. You think they are wrong, and somehow Taijiquan can be beneficial to attain Dao. But how many Taijiquan masters, except Zhang Sanfeng and his seldom students, have reached immortality of any kind? Same with "sitting and forgetting", Chan after 6th patriarch etc. Again, it doesn't mean that Taijiquan is "bad". It is good for fighting (hard to believe, but such masters still exist), some times it can improve health and so on. But to attain Dao it gives nothing practically, moreover, it "moves what has to be in quietude". So in Neidan schools such arts are learnt AFTER, not before as you suggest. And they are not a requirement at all. That's the difference. The method of Great Dao has the same principle in different schools of Neidan, Waidan, pair cultivation, if it exists then the method is true, if it's lost then it's false. Forms can be different, and sure for different stages there are different exercises. But there are thousands of side schools that give nothing in attaining the Great Dao: The arts are so many - for each thousand, there are ten thousand more. Their tortuous routes run against the Yellow Emperor and the Old Master (Lao Zi)

Right. But if there is no lineage, then the chance somebody has learnt real teaching out of nowhere is very small. So the lineage has to be. Then you need to do your homework, explore books, understand what Dao is and what is not (like the text in the beginning of this thread). Then you will know what to look for. Nobody will show you miracles, yangshen etc. Even young appearance says nothing. So all we have is our logic and intuition. Logic is based on texts. Intuition is based on your innate and acquired qualities to see the truth. Only by this combination there is a chance you can find a real teacher. Then you need to practice, and only with the experience you'll obtain real proofs, your own achievements. Before that it's natural (and good) to have doubts.

Not really. It speaks about "supreme and inferior virtue", but it makes no relation to minor methods or "side doors". Moreover, we can read in this text: [speaking about false methods] The arts are so many - for each thousand, there are ten thousand more. Their tortuous routes run against the Yellow Emperor and the Old Master (Lao Zi) and one more to quote: From exhaustion your body daily grows weak: you may be "vague and indistinct", but look like a fool. That's absolutely the same meaning Zhungli Quan teaches us. you mix 2 different concepts: "supreme and inferior virtue" and "side doors" / Great Dao. For some unknown reasons you think that "lower virtue" is the same as "side doors", but I doubt you can find any text that explain things this way... None of the methods of "side doors" can be "doing" for "inferior virtue" students. yep, but from Great Dao point of view it's just a waste of time, because if we need health or strength, then Neidan schools have additional methods, that work based on the principles of Neidan. Even preliminary practices in Neidan schools have nothing in common with "side doors and minor methods" in Zhongli Quan's list. That's hard to accept before you receive such practices, but I'm just clarifying why "side doors" = "false schools". By practising such methods, you're moving to the side, wasting your time and "exhausting your body" (see my quote from Cantong Qi), and there is no way it works as "doing" at the "inferior virtue" phase. Please, these self-proclaimed "Dragon Gate Daoists" cultivate nothing but "side door" methods, believing they attract anything serious... Good example for this topic though. No, they don't, or you need to accept that any thing in Zhongli Quan's list can be Dao or can lead to Dao. For example, 采补, Eva Wong translated it as "gathering generative energy from a partner", giving it some sexual flavour... Is it Dao? Can it lead to Dao? Same about every item in the list: they are just false methods, that have absolutely no relation to Great Dao 大道.

Good joke... "not knowing that these techniques are only minor ways of lengthening the life span. As for sitting like a withered tree and making the mind as still as cold ashes—these are but minor techniques of focusing the spirit. ", "these methods can make them immune only to common diseases". Obviously there is nothing about "excellent". And the context is obviously sarcastic. In your wish to argue you miss obvious things:

it's not easy... First, you need a Teacher, second, you need to understand texts.

good point. And speaking about that "living treasure", the students are available all the time to ask and see what they could learn... Many people did that, so I know it's possible. It's not the only criteria, but mostly it's not very important what some teacher can do (any miracles etc), but what this teacher can do with you. And Wang is on the market for many years, he is a public figure, with photos, "thousands of students" etc, so if somebody really wants proofs, they can find them. I see no any reason to do it though, and sell your house just to see the Guru... This qigong and meditation craze will end up as other waves before, many so-called "living treasures" are old enough, their students got very little, and it's obvious now that their teaching is not Dao just by the results they achieved not. "A rhinoceros has no place to plunge its horn into him, a tiger has no place to fasten its claws onto him, soldiers have no place to stab him with swords. It is so, because to him there is no death". (DDJ, Lao Zi) Where's all that? Or at least any understanding of that? Just fantasy books and claims a la Castaneda...

Nomen illis legio... at least at this forum ))) The problem of "false methods" is a problem of any serious practitioner, because "people prefer the side paths" (Lao Zi), and it's very easy to go off track.

No, he doesn't say that. He says: "Because false methods of minor schools are considered efficient and widely spread among the laity". He says nothing good about these methods, and "side doors" in Taoist tradition also has no any positive meaning since Dao De Jing. Methods are false, inconsistent, wrong etc just because they move people away from Dao. And the ability to draw a border line between Great Dao and "side doors" is practically important, because it also turns you towards the Dao. Could you please name any classic work that states clearly that some "side door" methods are required for Dao cultivation? Any example from the list, say "Formal maintaining of the teaching lineage". Do you really want say it's a requirement?

people can see that such direct translation contradicts to what we see on the picture. The lower end of the leakage road is not the same as "stopping the leakage". Daoist texts, starting with DDJ, have their own logic and methods to transmit the meaning to people, and this logic and textual methods, obviously, are mostly unknown to the scholars outside of the tradition. That's why it's really true saying: "it's impossible to understand scriptures without a teacher". no, it doesn't represent genitals. Do you know how genitals look like and where in the body are they? As you see Mingmen ("Gate of Ming") is much higher then Seminal vesicle (it's below Urinary Bladder #8). And even basics of the anatomy can suggest that the pictures in Huimingjing cannot be mapped to any physical process. The image itself says nothing about genitals, "end of ejaculation", celibacy or other fantasies of the Internet "taoists on hormones". The real practice is a miracle, what you guys try to forge is just a secular mistake. you're wrong even here, the celibacy doesn't contradict the idea of "the true spiritual teachings" in the heads of Westerns, grew up on Christianity, so it's much easier to promote it then the idea of the Daoist practice, which is new and mostly unknown even today. People in general love polarities, and don't really want to accept the idea of balance. You can find examples even in this thread, even in your own posts. I see this topic is very interesting for you, maybe because the idea of torturing yourself sounds very appealing to your mind... But it has no relation to Daoism, it's just a legacy of a false understanding of Christianity during last 2000 years. It's a pop, "new age" modern pseudo-culture, which destroys people's ability to see the truth.

Obviously this picture means nothing about "no ejaculation", moreover, this picture is not even about the "end of leakage". Again nothing. Zero knowledge. So miserable.

You quote correct things, but jump to wrong conclusions: The lineage is not a label. The lineage is a " sequence of masters". And these sequences exist, and it makes the lineages. Nanzong, Quanzhen Dao etc are labels. Southern schools are mostly in the society now, many of them use Quanzhen or ZhenYi labels, because they are officially permitted. Does it make them to have no lineage? Sure it doesn't, and it's possible to see the internally kept books with unbroken lines of masters, their dates of real life, their achievements etc. So it's just not true to say: for example, for Zhang Boduan you can read his lineage in many Chinese books, and it has 5 generations to Lao Zi... Maybe he didn't name his teaching Nanzong, but practically it means very little. He has created a new school by his teaching, that's important. Same for Wang Chongyang. That's why there is Quanzhen Dao and Nanzong - to explain the differences in methods, and what new they brought to Dao legacy from Lao Zi.

Taoist Texts doesn't quote Chen Zhixu, he quotes Wm. Clarke Hudson's personal opinion (page 318 of his thesis). Basically, it's not an argument at all, because we know nothing about Mr Clarke's practical results... If Mr Clarke reads that, we can ask him, why, and based on what, he came to conclusion that it's possible to say "yuanjing is nurtured by post natal jing". So far I don't see any support for that nor in classics, nor in alive Neidan masters' teaching. What Chen Zhixu writes about "refining post natal treasures", it's a different practice basically, so I don't know why people can speak about yuan jing here at all...

it really depends on the school and goals. In Wu-Liu there is nothing like that at all, in Yu Xian Pai there are a lot of practices before 100 days, so they prepare extensively and without them it's just a useless torture for young people. If somebody wants (or needs because of the situation) to keep long-time celibacy, more then 2-3 months, then the main issue is the yin-yang balance, the spirit is under a big stress, and it's really hard to handle without proper knowledge and techniques. For healthy young people especially. When people are sick and old, such retention is natural and has its obvious benefits. But basically it's better to ask your teacher, it is not something people suppose to do without a proper control, and it has to be an individual approach taking many factors into consideration (age, gender, level of practice, yin-yang balance, season etc).