takaaki

Yes, there are many undeniable evidence of 道 coming across as a proper noun anywhere in the 81 Chapters of this Classic. I'll start a new thread to go over the chapters where 道 was shown as a proper noun for your curiosity.

You truly are devoted to your vocation as a teacher. I am indeed fortunate.

At first, before I open up the Tao Te Ching, I have no idea what 道 was all about until I've read the annotions and connotation in Chapter One. As you've said, it is inconsistent with traditional Chinese scholarship because it is a piece of a standing alone document written by a Wise man called Lao Tze. Your question was ".....Is this a wise thing to do....???" With LoaTze's incomparable wisdom, indeed, I think he had done such a wise thing.

I hope you will be patient with me in the study of the Tao Te Ching. My approach is different and probably influenced by family elders. They had always told me that all book learnings, especially the Chinese classics, must have practical relevance. To that end, self-mastery and statecraft were their only areas of focus. My western education drummed into me the same attitude towards learning: execution. The difference between being a success in life and a loser is the ability to make economically-viable ideas work.

This is why I would rather see 道 as a Way (of action) than as a proper noun, a name for a mystical thing. In this regard, I hope you will give me some leeway in interpreting the meaning of the verses.

ChiDragon,

Chapter 1 seems to me to be an appropriate opening Chapter to the Tao Te Ching.

In this Chapter, 道 does seem to be used as a proper noun; and because of this, you said that 道 may not be translated as "Way". By making it a proper noun, 道 takes on a form of something mystical; especially if it cannot be either defined or perceived.

So, I would like to question the basis of argument, if any, for treating 道 as a proper noun. Is there any undeniable evidence of 道 coming across as a proper noun anywhere in the 81 Chapters of this Classic?

The idea of a mysticism associated with the Tao Te Ching doesn't appeal to me because it is inconsistent with traditional Chinese scholarship. I regard the Tao Te Ching as a scholarly work of practical relevance as all Chinese classics truly are. Treating 道 as a proper noun is giving the breath of life to a pictograph, a linguistic symbol. Is this a wise thing to do?

Hey Shanglung,

I withdraw my invitation to join in the fray. There will be no continuation of my debate with any forum member on any subject.

If you like to study the classical Chinese form of the Tao Te Ching in the 道家学说 forum, please join in. The tea will be on me.

Yes. Is that direct and clear?

Yes, quite clear. As a visitor here, I shall defer to your cultural sensitivity. I apologize for hurting your feelings.

Is this trolling, simple bigotry, highly spun irony, or all three? One thing it is not, is useful communication.

Ok, I now understand where you are coming from. Since I am a visitor, I will curb my tongue and defer to your culture.

I regret hurting your feelings and apologize for my lack of sensitivity.

~This thread is being reported rather a lot, as one that is lacking civility and maturity and respect. If this situation doesnt improve then members involved will be subject to suspension without further notice. If by any chance you are unable to discern the lack of civility herein, please look more closely and take the opportunity for close reflection on your tone and content and attempt a wider vision of sensitivity.

 

Perhaps you were not aware that the way you are gossiping about/labelling dawei is very poor form/insensitive/ runs counter to the spirit of this forum ~

 

mod team

Ok, I now understand where you are coming from. Since I am a visitor, I will curb my tongue and defer to the culture of forum members here. I shall henceforth restrict my postings to the study of classical Chinese only.

Please convey my apologies to forum members who have reported to you that their feelings have been hurt by my lack of sensitivity.

~This thread is being reported rather a lot, as one that is lacking civility and maturity and respect. If this situation doesnt improve then members involved will be subject to suspension without further notice. If by any chance you are unable to discern the lack of civility herein, please look more closely and take the opportunity for close reflection on your tone and content and attempt a wider vision of sensitivity.

Perhaps you were not aware that the way you are gossiping about/labelling dawei is very poor form/insensitive/ runs counter to the spirit of this forum ~

mod team

Takaaki!

 

I just finished reading that debate on American Taoist largely between you and Marblehead!

I will look with interest to that continuation.

Why don't you join in the fray and say what you truly feel but not the words of one who kneels? I think you have much to contribute to the discussion. And I do look forward to your participation.

I am getting tongue tied here and at a loss how to answer Phi92 without stepping on toes as I do not desire to step on toes.

I have enough problem with my foot in my mouth. I have no intention to insult anyone.

Your well-meaning answers pack Tao power. It is too potent for newcomers to Tao Heaven. It is best you don't use full Chi force. Even a light shove from a Tao Master can break bones and rupture internal organs of the beginner.

I wasn't trying to say that you are a mystic, I was trying to say that such an obscure answer isn't needed.

 

I never asked to define the Dao, I asked to define usual Daoist practices and behaviour.

 

I don't accept things I like, I just like the answers to be logical and coherent.

 

Also, please refrain from using such language. I never insulted you.

You seem upset by Shanlung's replies. This is a good opportunity for you to practise the Way of the Tao Te Ching.

1. Extinguish your rage before it grows stronger, it is easier to put out a small fire. (Chapter 64).

2. Developing the strength to control your rage is smarter than developing the force to control Shanglung. (Chapter 33).

Try it.

At least you are now being honest about the point you are trying to make. Jesus did not pretend to be a "Roman Daoist" for the purpose of distorting and ridiculing Roman thought. (BTW, in the U.S., people who compare themselves to Jesus are usually seen as megolamaniacal or insane, or both. Ditto Napoleon, Einstein, etc.)

I think Jesus, like Lao Tzu, is folklore. But what is the point you have been trying to make about me viz a viz the "American Taoist"? I don't understand exactly what you are accusing me of. Please be direct and clear so that I get it.

Using your Jesus example, are you saying that I am creating this idea of the American Taoist for the purpose of distorting and ridiculing the image of Americans and Taoists?

According to my recollection, I believe that Dawei had told us he is not Chinese but married to a Chinese woman from Taiwan.

Good lord! That was exactly what I thought Dawei could be: a westerner with a Chinese wife.

My English (which is flawed with wrong tenses) is better than his. So, English can't be his mother tongue. He must be European. I have to admit that he sure can give you a run for your money arguing about the ancient texts. His ability at doing that gave me the impression that he could be a Chinaman.

You are correct. I never said that. I did say it didn't matter whether the translator was Chinese, English or American as long as they had a command of the Chinese language, both present and past.

 

I have seen translations to English by Chinese people who took a vast number of liberties in translating it.

I am not proving that you lied. It could very well have slipped your mind. But I needed to prove that I did not put words in your mouth. Even then, if I have misunderstood your words, I apologize.

Lifted from Post No. 143 in "The Way (道)of Living":

Posted 20 January 2013 - 01:12 AM

Now you are getting personal. Hehehe.

No, it's really not important what the original (whatever that is) text says. What matters to me more than anything else is how does what I have just read apply to my life. There is much in the TTC that doesn't effect my life as I have no desire of ruling the world. But I do want to find the best ways to life my life with the greatest amount of freedom possible and without causing contention with others.

It is nice to have you to come along here to discuss some linguistic issues. It is very difficult to discuss these three terms with someone without having the fundamental to understand their basic meanings.

Yes, very nice. I wish we have some fine 龍井茶 to add to our enjoyment of this lesson.

It is unfortunate that we cannot make ourselves understood to our western members who insist that Classical Chinese is not inaccessible to them. Dawei (is he Chinese?) is compounding the problem by his unsympathetic attitude towards our reasoning making us look like stodgy Kung Fu masters intent on keeping Chinese treasures within China. The biggest culprits are the Chinese intellectuals like John Wu, Gia Fu Feng, and Lin Yutang whose translations are ridiculous from my point of view. But they are luminaries with great stature in the west.

The characters 人 and 家 are normally used to address oneself. However, only those people who speak the language are familiar with its usage in context. BTW This is one of those most difficult cases to translate into another language. As you said, English words are very specific in their meanings. However, Chinese and classics are not. The meaning of each character has to be grokked based in context or the usage in a phrase.

I know, and I will leave you to get this across to our beloved Marblehead in your patient diplomatic way. The Chinese don't have sole possession of human wisdom. To assert this would be truly mad. Even bees have possession of the Tao wisdom, that we Chinese don't have, to live harmoniously together (in their hives) and cooperate effectively. And they don't need classical Chinese to access the Tao Te Ching!

I do not maintain that classical Chinese is the key to unlock secrets in the Tao Te Ching. Actually, its vault of wisdom is empty. What I have been saying is this: the key to unlock the secrets of classical Chinese is the Chinaman and no other.

By the Chinese, no. By communism's anti-religious/anti-traditional-spirituality endeavours? Possibly. The state of Taoism in the PRC is a good sign that the hegemonic thinking has little respect for what Taoism is really about, beyond a few easily digestible words that bring in tourism.

With 1.3 million mouths to feed, the Government of China has to root out wasteful superstitions.

And I'm not saying white/anglo/etc.. Chinese people in the West are under less constraint to understand the DDJ in a dry scientist manner. The intention to suppress these "old superstitious ways of looking at the world" in a communist society does not lend well to understanding and writing about ancient mystical texts. I'm not at all saying that nothing good in this regard comes out of China, but the climate of the West is simply more advantageous to it. Especially for people who are culturally Chinese, maybe, but speaking English is not the end of the wisdom in the DDJ.

And the climate at Tsinghua University's School of Humanities and Social Sciences is not as conducive as that in the West?

And I will continue to disagree with you here. The moral messages within the TTC are more toward universals that they are specifically Chinese. I realize that there is a history of the Chinese wanting to be isolationists. That's their culture. But they do not have the right to claim sole ownership to intuitional human thoughts. Other cultures have thoughts too. And sometimes the thoughts are very, very similar.

You have stated before, when I asked, that it was not important to you even if the English version of the Tao Te Ching that you use has no connection to the Chinese text. I considered your answer intelligent even though I had doubts you realized how clever your answer was.

No, I don't believe the Chinese have sole ownership to intuitional human thoughts. My Doberman is sharp and knows my every move even before I become conscious of it.

So please stop with the "the TTC is only Chinese" BS and lets consider what was said and not spend so much time with who said it. Afterall, even I totally agree with some of the quotes that were supposedly said by Jesus.

Your above comments show that I still have not been successful in making myself understood. I won't flog a dead horse. Let's blame it on lousy ability at communication.

I see myself as Jesus preaching to the multitude. Time and time again, the multitude would get riled and upset and want to throw me out. I have come to understand Jesus' difficult time with the Pharisees and high priests who were incensed with him the way the folks here are with me. But what I cannot get is how come a smart guy like Jesus got himself nailed to the cross?

I am sure he was smart enough to know when to stop riling the mods in Jerusalem.

And you say?

Yes, the lettuce wrap is good. I like to put a piece of Chinese sausage (imported from Hong Kong) in the wrap to kick it up a notch. Wax duck and preserved meat (pork belly) are must haves, and a noodle dish for longetivity. Last but not least, a western touch: X.O. Hennessy Cognac for Yum Seng or Chines New Year can never be right! I would never tell the French that the Chinese can also produce as good brandy as the French. Why won't they accept that English can never capture the Chinese Tao Te Ching? Anyway, let's study.

I would like your review on Chapter 42 with regard to your interpretation of the following lines:

8. 唯孤、寡、不穀，

8. Are to be orphaned, widowed, and have no grain.
Only Loneliness, Celibacy, Unkind,

9. 而王公以為稱，
9. Yet kings and dukes take these as their names.
Are used by the kings and dukes to address themselves.

English words are very specific in their meanings. Thus, orphan is just that; and widow is widow and not spinster.

However, 孤 is not "orphan" although it is used for denoting orphan in vernacular usage. A closer meaning is "being alone".

The same applies to 寡 which is not widow. It is more like "removed from social rank" that she had before as a wife, a person with social significance in Chinese society. A king or emperor would have the pronoun of 寡人, a royal personage removed from the general populace and has no social rank because, in his case, he is above the common herd.

It is true that people hate to be left out (like orphans), without social status (like widows), and have no economic relevance in society. And yet, this is exactly the lot of the aristocrat - an exclusive life apart from the maddening crowd and spared the horror of having to work for a living.

What do you say?

Stopping translations into English will not change that.

So, what you are essentially saying is that the English-speaking world is saving the Tao Te Ching from being destroyed by the Chinese. How wonderful.

I rest my case.

Please do not remove takaaki from the forum. We need to hear some negative comments to balance out the objective point of view. Personally, I do not wish just to hear everybody agrees with everything that everybody says. Any contradictory statement was considered to be disrespectful is not the way to go in a Taoist forum. IMMHO The words used here as long as they are not too disparaging should be tolerated to some extent.

It is quite alright to remove me from the forum which is privately owned. The owner has the same power of ex-communication as the Catholic Pope at the Vatican.

I have stated my truth that the English version of the Tao Te Ching is not the Chinese version in terms of a fundamental moral message. I am neither trying to sell the Chinese version in this forum nor to invalidate the English version that forum members use for discussion here. It is fun to reflect on the English verses and, to some, they offer philosophical solace.

To me, as a Chinese, I feel the need to preserve the dignity of the Tao Te Ching, a serious text with a powerful message to rid society - not just among Chinese but wherever people live together - of ignorance and put an end to social injustice. I wanted to point this out to the world here, and elsewhere. And for this, I am accused of being disrespectful.

Disrespectful to whom? To those who are practising intellectual imperialism? Imperialists are not just westerners stomping into China, they are also people who would invade Chinese literature, anglicize it and not only appropriate it as their own but also put their stamp of authority on the distorted Classic and proclaim it the real stuff. And this is not disrespectful?

~ takaaki, questioning, debating, challenging is what this discussion forum is for. Disrespecting members is against the rules. You have been reported for belittlling and demeaning the participants of this thread. Please limit yourself to debating the topic at hand rather than the character or intelligence or nature of the posters discussing.~

 

mod team

Disrespecting members? Can you produce the incriminating posts that support the accusation?

Are you calling me a "bad guy"?

No. You are a nice guy. You want to join the Tao party. You will have many like-minded friends here.

the logical question at this point is >

 

 

you would like to be a true daoist based on what notion of what a true daoist might be?

 

 

from where does the notion arise? from what belief, fantasy or notion does it arise? is there any idea behind it at all, or is it just a whim, or a conviction that you are find yourself housing quite mysteriously?

 

and yes beginners are more than welcome here. to know your beginning is useful. hence my question.

You are really good. I need to check you out. I can't believe there can be more than one of me.

Why would you want to be a true daoist , if you dont know what it is?

 

How is it possible to want to be something that you dont know about?

Good point. I really love it when people ask scholarly questions.

We must not let the bad guys in.

one of the things that defines a daoist is a lack of attraction to labels. so a daoist is unconcerned about being labelled as 'a daoist'.. such a person does not need to self define, so there will be no need for lots of "I" statements and self describing.. you will have to be subtle to find these people.

We found you!

Could you get back to us with your translation(s) asap.

I don't do translations. How can I when I have repeatedly stated that it is not possible to do that with the Tao Te Ching.

I just wanted to compare the Chinese text with this quaint nursery school-like statement of "Tao produces One, One produces two, two produces three...."

hey all,

 

you guys are re-inventing the wheel here. there already is a non-culture-specific description of tao, and a few of you were just talking about throwing it into the rubbish bin! which would be fine, of course...

I didn't mean to be disrespectful. Throwing the Dao into the rubbish bin is another way of saying keeping the mind free from any influence.

the point i am making is that nowhere in the ttc does it say, "in china, it works like this".

You need to specify which version of the Tao Te Ching you are referring to. I suppose you are talking about one of the English versions.

the point i am making is that nowhere in the ttc does it say, "in china, it works like this". it could be argued, and probalby will be, that to understand some of the metaphors, one would need somebody who understands them. this would lead to the inevitable conclusion that this person must be chinese. i think we are to the point now where there have been truly wise english teachers who understand the text and have disseminated the teachings in an accurate fashion.

The Tao Te Ching, in Chinese, is reflective composition thick in metaphors using characters each of which has multiple meanings. For example, over in the Tao Te Ching forum on the study of Chapter 10, two verses were translated into English as follows:

In the opening and shutting of heaven's gates,

Are you able to play the feminine part?

ChiDragon, a Chinese, guided by his reading of the Chinese text, said that the above verses meant to ask whether one, in perceiving the outer world through the gates of one's senses, could stay unperturbed.

Aaron, a westerner who is an authority on the Tao Te Ching having studied it for twenty years, guided by his cultural background, said that the above verses meant to ask whether one could play the woman's part in sexual intercourse.

in summary, the ttc talks about tao and virtue, not china. call me naive, call me american, call me whatever, but that is how i see it. anyway, have a great saturday!

I reiterate my assumption that you are again referring to the English version of the Tao Te Ching. The Chinese version, which was written in ancient China, is steeped in Chinese culture and uses things, found only in China, as metaphors. "Tao" and "virtue" are as peculiar as chopsticks and dim sum. You would insist that you have western equivalents for eating implements and food snack and proceed to prove it by producing a set of knife and fork and a hamburger.

There is nothing wrong with studying the English version of the Tao Te Ching. But why would you insist that the English Tao Te Ching is the Chinese Tao Te Ching? I don't know what to call you but I am sure no American, no matter how naive, would be dumb enough to tell me to my face that the hamburger he stuffs into his mouth is a dim sum.