takaaki

Chinese Daoism is part of the Dao that can be told by the Chinese. Western Daoism is part of the Dao that can be told by westerners. The reason why you are unclear about America being the land of the free is because it is the American Dream. American citizenship gives you the opportunity to realize that dream. To make it happen, you need the Three Treasures of the American Taoist: self-reliance, love of abundance, and dare to be first in the world. Since you love him, here is the King and his dream:

You know what? The great thing about being an American Taoist is that you can not know that you are one. You think you are just one of the western folks. Now, this is true humility. When you truly know that you are being humble, then you are just acting the part.

Are you telling me that my call for self-determination, self-reliance, love of abundance and striving to be first in bringing about a better world amount to nothing more than selfish greed of the American kind? I need to correct your perception. First of all, I am not trying to create the American Taoist. This fella already exists in each one of us who dares to live free. Every baby embodies this natural freedom-loving quality; it instinctively reaches out to grab what it wants and screams and howls until it gets its way. "Ah! It would become a brat and, later, a brute if it isn't taught Daoist compassion, frugality and not striving to be first," you'd say. Ours is a material reality. And the role of the mind is to tend to the body. This is the Way. It is neither superficial nor deep. What you call my self-serving version of Taoism is not what you think it is. I can clarify it but won't preach it. I am not an evangelist; besides, the American Taoist is born, not made. You have the right to your version.

Feng Shui, is not pure superstition. The wisdom of its recommendation in both the siting of structures and their interior layouts has been spotted by top western architects. For example, a house at a T-Junction has bad Feng Shui. Westerners who don't care for this silliness soon find their houses destroyed by trucks and semis with faulty brakes or faulty drivers careening past the T-Junction right into their abodes. Another Feng Shui recommendation: don't stand too close to the edge of the platform while waiting for your train.

Who are you referring to, Harmonious? Which post painted westerners as having the materialist relationship? Chinese culture spans the whole Chinese social fabric - from scholars right at the top of the social structure to the merchant class at the bottom. The western equivalent of the Chinese merchant class includes (some but not all) Forbes' list of billionaires to the petty traders in the flea markets of London, Paris and New York. The equivalent of the Chinese scholar class in the west is non-existent. You read this right and I repeat - non-existent. All western academicians including Albert Einstein, Nobel Laureates teaching in top American universities at Harvard or University of Chicago right down to research fellows with a PhD are, at best, artisans who love their work At worst, they are merchants trading their credentials, knowledge and skills for money. Daoism, in used by the Chinese for spiritual and materialistic reasons mainly of the kind you cited. In the case of the westerners, their Daoism is mainly for spiritual reasons only. While the Chinese Daoist's spirituality is religious in nature, the westerner's Daoist spirituality is for mental stimulation (philosophy) and self-deception (morality).

Anarchist? You really think so? Sounds awful. What are we rebelling against? I thought the right Way was one of absolute order.

Ok, then American Taoist, let's read our own American Tao Te Ching along with our very own American Tao Master.

My opinion is as follows: Daoism is not part of Chinese culture. The Chinese version of the Dao De Jing is part of Chinese culture and it is indeed a Chinese cultural artifact. The English version of the Dao De Jing is part of western culture and a western cultural artifact. My definition of the Taoist in "American Taoist" has nothing to do with Chinese culture but everything to do with that free primal human quality the Chinese Tao Te Ching speaks to. America, land of the free, does it her own way, namely, the American way - MY WAY. So, if I am of this wonderful American culture, why look elsewhere to get inspired to be free? Why not go American? It's still the same Dao http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlKJ-0bnxdA

Riyue comes across as a pretty formidable Chinese guy. He deserves some roast duck.

道可道非 = If Tao can be said "no" ? How does 非 work here?

This is a very good presentation. I feel the same way about the Tao Te Ching being a Chinese cultural artifact. No foreigner can understand it in a way a Chinese can. Same with the Gita for your countrymen. This is not meant to diminish western scholars of Asian classical works. No woman sees a child in the same way as its own mother.

Dawei seems intent on emphasizing the need for participation from our English-speaking membership at Tao Bums. That is understandable since this website does not belong to a Chinese scholar and is meant as a social meeting place for English-speaking people interested in everything to do with the Tao. But you did start this thread for a special purpose: to study the Received Version of the Tao Te Ching. This thread is only for those interested in what you have to say on the topic. I don't see why Dawei has to set conditions and moderate how you do your thing here in this thread. As for his correcting what I said by striking out the word "Chinese", I would like to emphasize my contention that the Tao Te Ching is essentially Chinese just as the Gita is an Indian Classic. Dawei may disagree with my view that only Chinese literary experts has the special advantage in dealing with Chinese classical works in a way that a mother has that special connection with her own child. If he doesn't believe that a mother is special to her own offspring and vice versa, that's fine. There are some babies who would suck anybody's breast including a cow's jjust to get fed. But there are some babies who only want their own mothers. I hope Dawei will allow us to have our own mother and not just any old cow. This is why I emphasized "Chinese scholars" should attend to the Tao Te Ching.

You shouldn't look for American kung fu either. Bruce Lee's brand of martial art is truly made-in-America. He used all forms and consequently, no form. What works was his theme including running away from getting beaten up. He wore a track-suit and sneakers for training. The Chinese believed that the older the kung fu master, the more lethal he gets. Bruce didn't think you could get better as you grew older but you could only get smarter. Another Chinese kung fu lie was the power of chi that even a pot-bellied kung fu master could deploy. Bruce packed six-pack abs and maintained a superb physique, and his fighting style gave rise to Mixed-Martial Arts that is flourishing in America today. Although he had deep respect for martial art principles, he didn't mince words in showing his disdain for superstitious traditional Chinese kung fu beliefs. In fact, he demonstrated that contempt to a horrified Chinese audience in a Hong Kong TV show. When Bruce Lee became an overnight box-office sensation, he was invited as guest on a TV show along with several renowned Chinese kung fu masters from the various schools. When it came time to show off, a taichi master got up, set himself up in a stance planted solidly on the stage and invited the other kung fu masters to try and push him off his perch. One by one they got up from their chairs and tried but none could budge the taichi master an inch. Bruce just sat there in his chair watching the proceedings.The Taichi master then motioned to Bruce Lee, who was really the star of the show on account of his new-found movie-star fame, and taunted, "Young man, you are a good fighter on the movie screen, why don't you try and move me?" Bruce got up, went over to the taichi master who braced himself for the push. Bruce unleashed a lightning fast Muhamad Ali-style uppercut that came from nowhere and sent the taichi master stumbling backwards several steps before crashing mightily to the floor. The audience was aghast as the other alarmed kung fu masters rushed forward to help the taichi master up. One of them turned to Bruce and asked:"Why did you punch him?" Bruce replied, 'I don't push. I punch." Now we know why sane Americans like James Coburn and Steve McQueen loved Bruce Lee so much.

Historical studies of the Tao Te Ching are as important as the study of the Tao Te Ching itself. I feel this is the scholarly approach which is as objective and detached as a scientific inquiry. This is the way of a wine taster who tests the wine for quality without swallowing the wine. In this way, you begin your study of the Tao Te Ching as a scholar and you end your study as a scholar without turning into a Taoist. Dawei (I am not pointing at the person but the mind-set) maintains that, in the study of the Tao Te Ching, one has to ingest everything - philosophy, spiritualism, folklore - lock, stock and barrel. This is the way of a sake drinker who drinks the sake for stimulation and imbibes deeply in the brew. In this way, you begin your study of the Tao Te Ching as a scholar and you end your study as anything from a Mao Shan Shaman to a hippie-bearded US professor in Asian Studies intoxicated by the Tao. . You have brought to light the dangers of getting misled by the Chinese manuscripts themselves that need careful examination by dedicated objective Chinese scholars. The Tao Te Ching in its present Chinese form is undeniably an impressive piece of work. Small wonder that it has inspired so many translations by foreign scholars of the liberal arts.

Dawei raised two questions which, I think, deserve attention and need to be addressed. I will rephrase those questions below. Question 1. There is a doubt that the Received Version possess established scholarly merit. Can you provide some historical facts related to its development and cite scholars who contributed to this work? For example, the Shih-chi (史記) was written by Ssu-ma Chien. Question 2. There is a claim that The Received Version has no western readership because there are no English translations. Is your English translation presented in this forum the only one in existence? You have posted the Chinese text of the Tao Te Ching for each Chapter in the Tao Te Ching discussion forum. Is that the Received Version? Is the Received Version posted in Chinese on the internet? Do you have the link?

Well, I am not done talking to you. I have conducted myself in a reasoned manner regardless of your abusiveness. There is no reason for you to get agitated. After all, this is just an exchange between two willing parties who have agreed to study Chapter 10 of a literary classic devoted to the instilling of harmony. I don't mean to pit the Chinese text against its English translations as if the original form is superior to its derivatives. I am sure you are aware of the complexities inherent in classical literature. If you were from India and wanted to know if we could refer to the sanskrit version in our study of the Gita in English, I would certainly welcome that suggestion. Why on earth would you get upset and run off in a huff over the admission of Chinese in our study of the Tao Te Ching?

I hate to reveal my skill-level as there are many kung fu fighters here who are intent on giving me a deadly blow. But I do want to benefit from your level of Chinese scholarship which is superior to mine. I can read Chinese but not at a proficient classical level. I have Chinese ancestry traceable back 14 generations as recorded in our family tree that identifies the station and profession of my forbears who were Mandarins and scholars. This academic lineage has inspired me from the day I set eyes on calligraphic work (kept in family archive) composed by ancestors for the Imperial Exams. Great-grandfather, a contemporary of the likes of John Wu, was headmaster of schools he founded in Guangzhou and Hong Kong. His successful sons (who were the patrons and supporters of Dr. Sun Yat Sen) mounted a media campaign in support of the revolution through the Chinese newspapers they own throughout South-East Asia. I tell you this so you know that I am not just a western-educated mutt who is curious in airy-fairy Chinese spiritual nonsense. I have a filial commitment to reclaim my roots. Please proceed with your discussion. I look forward to learning what you have to offer to me and others..

Westerners access? Are you implying that ChiDragon's received version is in Chinese only? Can't you read Chinese? Maybe you are not Chinese after all. I have assumed that you are Chinese because of your expertise in debating applicability of various Chinese characters. Ok, I get it. To you, any Chinese scholarly work on the Tao Te Ching not worth translating for the western audience is not worth looking at. I don't know if I can call it the physical realm because not everything coming to me through the Heavenly Gate (five senses) can be explained through physics. This is because this branch of physical science upon which materialism is based cannot capture materialist reality in its entirety. So, I do practise some things beyond words. As an American Taoist, I pay attention to only two realms: the physical realm and, beyond that, the realm of common-sense. Ok, thanks for clarifying. You pay attention to all three realms. I pay attention to two. I don't believe in multi-culturalism either. No foreign-aid. You stay out of my way and I stay out of yours. Adios.

If there is no secret about it, then why is Dawei insisting that it is an obscure piece of work? He may not like its form but is there any credible, established information on the development of the "received version"? Facts are easy to establish. What do you say?

This thread is about The Legitimacy of Martial Arts Practices. It led to a referencing of Chapter 55 which posed a question that needed to be clarified on Wang Bi's version as opposed to the corrected received version. Your dismissiveness of the "received version" led to a mini argument which is quite ok. We are still on track. I am sure you have good reasons to prefer the older texts but your disregard for the "received version" is puzzling. You don't give specific grounds for invalidating the "received version" which ChiDragon explained as the resultant work of Chinese scholars through the ages. This is the traditional practice of Chinese scholarship - each subsequent generation preserve and clarify the work of the generation before. I noticed that you are quite receptive of Flowing Hands' received version transmitted to him by Li Erh. Is it because it is the oldest text from the author of the Tao Te Ching itself?

Tetchy. Usually a scholar wouldn't high-tail it out like this. Are you afraid of scrutiny? I have not even begun the examination of what Chapter 10 said to you and your understanding of it. I just asked if you studied the Chinese text itself or English translations of the Tao Te Ching. I asked Marblehead the very same question. He didn't run. Like John Wayne, the American Taoist never runs. This is the mark of fearlessness of an honest man who harbors no pretensions. He is what he is and you can either take it or leave it. Either way, he doesn't care. But you care. And you don't like questions that ruffle your careful composure of authority. I have not rejected your self-proclaimed credentials of the expert on the Tao Te Ching just as I did not dismiss an even more incredible claim of Flowing Hands that he received a direct transmission of the Tao Te Ching from Li Erh in English! I just asked what materials did you study. I noticed that you used John Ching Hsiung Wu's translation in your discourse on Chapter 10. Now, Mr Wu was an illustrious post-Imperial scholar with great stature both in China as well as in America. He was also a serious Catholic convert - a Minister to the Vatican from China, no less - who translated the New Testament and the Psalms of the Bible into Chinese for his countrymen. This Catholic zealot, in his later years produced an English version of the Tao Te Ching. The one you use. Is it not reasonable of me to find out if you are going to base our discussion strictly on Mr. Wu's rendition, or would you be willing to allow cross-referencing to the Chinese text which has no western influence in its making. When you put your stamp of authority on the Tao Te Ching in this forum in the manner you have done, every gunfighter in the West is going to take you on. Only you and Flowing Hands, both westerners, have claimed authority on the Chinese Classic which no Chinese here has done. Maybe they are humble or maybe they are scared. Flowing Hands is untouchable because divine inspiration is his schtick. But you are fair game because you are mortal and can be shot down. I was just checking the make of your weapon and you ran.

Before we proceed further, may I ask whether or not it is important to you that your reading of the Tao Te Ching has direct connection to the Chinese text? You have professed a thorough understanding of its teachings and asserted that you do know what it is saying. Did you listen to what it say directly in Chinese or is your understanding based on 20 years of studying 3rd party English translations and commentaries?

Mein Freund, October Mädchen. entspannen. Ich bin mit dir spielen.

Do you mind? I don't mean to pry but I do have a deep interest in people. I like to know what makes them tick the way they do. Good to know that she is doing ok. Most people are not doing ok. Your mother would say that you were born way before you started breathing air on your own. She would pinpoint it to the first time she could feel you moving inside her. And that would still be a materialist point of view, I think. Sounds like you are a pro-choice materialist. Have you any idea how crazy this sounds? (I don't mean to be disrespectful.) This is exactly what my father said when I asked him the same question. I was 17 at the time. The fact that it doesn't sound crazy anymore is because nobody cares that nobody knows. I said to my father: "Do you mean to tell me that you brought me into a world about which you have no clue? Superman's father had a clue. Krypton was blowing up." In case you are wondering if we are off-topic, the answer is no. We are talking about the Way (Tao) of Living and we have just discovered we are probably a zillion light-years way off track. Do you think there is anyone alive who would knowngly and deliberately maximize his pleasures and minimize his pains at the expense of others? Maybe, animals don't count because we need protein and as long as we need protein we might as well have that rib-eye, and buffalo wings. We know we are not eating people, not with our teeth anyway. Feeling uncomfortable yet? American Taoist, you mean. And you are my template for building a new brand for the Way. "Thou art Marblehead, and upon this rock I shall build my church."

You will not look at what John had to say because you don’t regard him as a wise person? What is the difference between the Dalai Lama and John Lennon? They are two people in the human race like two leaves in a tree. What makes one leaf stand out better than the other? Is it the way it flutters in the breeze while the other, like the rest of the foliage, is perfectly still? Or does one turn beautifully green when the sunlight passes through it and the other, like the rest, doesn’t? Please reply with the view in Zen.