Antares

6 minutes ago, Cleansox said:

And manifestation, especially physical, is...?

Real Dan Tien. Balance. Martial abilities... Sex drive... Strong body. Is it beyond classics?

4 hours ago, Cleansox said:

Without zhenyi true intention neidan methods makes no sense. 

This is normally developed by xin methods, and is different from the yi normally developed by daoyin or basic level IMA. 

Daogong has several levels and the results are not the same on every stage. Every exercise can be performed with different level of Yi work. People who practise alchemy have higher levels of Yi development. Yes, IMA is deeper than Daogong. Latter one is good point to start for the vast majority for far not everyone can perform IMA exercises right in the outset. Contemporary people are not in perfect states of mind and energy and they need proper initial methods. In the Past Chinese people could start off with Xing methods right away but now all people need xin method in the beginning.  

5 hours ago, Cleansox said:

Using the index of the book would have been easier, followed by opening the book at page 189.

I did. He only mentioned that embryonic breathing is possible and that he only had glimpses of it. That' all. Shall I consider all the book as a instruction for Neidan training? I suppose NO. He describes sitting practise and his experience with postheaven qi (breath) work. This is preparation stage only and far not the best. As I said it is crucial to keep right balance of Yin and Yang and this is one of the essential feature of the Daoism. I do not mean it does not work but the issue how to stay healthy and balanced when you cultivate. Breath work is very dangerous for it can easily lead to imbalances. Dmitri Artemyev, the personal disciple of the Teacher of Single Yang, related stories how his Teacher explained once the differences between sitting cultivation systems and dynamic ones. He even brought him to some Longmen practitioners and he was able to see the difference - many of them had health issues and did not look healthy. There was a reason for that - abundant Yin. So what Damo does and explains in his book?  He took the method of sitting cultavationed and mixed it with other qigong systems which he picked up somewhere in China. That' good if he can maintain the balance but you should watch you state if you do this. I would not do it without knowleageable teacher who can see your energy state and can do corrections   

13 hours ago, Cleansox said:

When it manifest physically, isn't that post heaven? 

 

Dan Tien has physical manifestation,for example. On the certain stage the flow of yuan qi can be perceived as a physical substance, not that you can see it with your eyes but its manifestation will be quite obviuos. And this is where certain "siddhas" (abilities) come from. 

I do not say I have it but I know that it is possible (I witnessed it). As for postheaven cultivation it can either impart some abilities there is a difference concerning internal state of the individual. All extra abilities or states of mind have underlying energies behind it. For example, authentic Iron Shirt is qigong or neidan? Now some teachers sell it as qigong exercises but in my opinion it is based on preheaven qi cultivation. If you posteaven Iron Shirt then you might get some results but they are not compared to preheaven qi results

9 minutes ago, Cleansox said:

Is there any classic text, translated into english, that lists any of these? 

The ones I have read seems to focus on internal experiences as signs. 

Good question and I would like to get that list as well.  Both internal and external of course. I meant external sign that I saw.  That probably could be achieved through Qigong as well but I believe it was due to preheaven energy feature. I know that person was a personal student of the famous Chinese XinYi master and they had preheaven cultivation in their style. I do not think that  Chinese master would do postheaven only training  

24 minutes ago, Creation said:

Scholar and martial fire breathing.

I have found the Damo's article here:

https://damomitchell.com/2019/08/20/stages-of-breathing/

Seems nothing about 

The precelestial Breath is the original and initial Ancestral Breath.⁽¹⁾ This Ancestral Breath is in the real center of Heaven and Earth within the human body. [Placed between] the Secret Door and the Gate of Life, hanging in the middle, it is the Heart of Heaven.⁽²⁾ The self-cultivation of the divine Immortals only consists in collecting the precelestial One Breath and using it as the Mother of the Elixir. 

https://www.goldenelixir.com/jindan/ruyao_jing_1.html

But I will continue reading his book. What I can say now Wu Liu people do not recommend sitting more than 20 minutes per day. As I said sitting produces Yin. WLP people say it is good for quieting the mind but is not alchemy at all. They wanted to spread Longmen lineage as well but rejected that idea as far as I know. But may be something changed recently.

Cleansox, this is secret info. I myself know only a few aspects of verification. But that one I mentioned was quite obvious to me 

1 minute ago, Wilhelm said:

Since we haven't started yet, our opinions aren't worth very much. 

I meant verifying somebody who teaches Neidan whether he indicates the features of successful Neidan practise. 

Also I am not talking about "my" opinion and I rely on Daoist classics. I just attach value to daoist scriptures and theories on Neidan.

But it up to you, may be you disagree   

4 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

Maybe when we're both experienced Nei Dan practitioners, we can speak about it experientially instead of hypothetically.

 

As it is, I can only speak to the theory!

Before beginning any practise it worths reading theory. Otherwise you can do something wrong what is not Neidan.  

But I have experience of some Pai' initial methods. Even from this perspective I can compare it with other Pai method

42 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

I would say you are making presumptions, but that's ok.  This is a pretty complex topic

Yes, complex, but mind you it is worth reading Traditional Daoist scriptures on the topic. I have got Damo's book actually and just was going to read it and now it is good chance for me to read it. So here fragments from his book "White Moon On The Mountain Peak":

Page 23: Starting out in NeiDan or Internal Alchemy is much like building a campfire. In the beginning we must prepare the ground and collect together firewood. . The kindling is burned first to produce a small flame and from here we tend to the fire until it is burning brightly, producing the warmth and light we are seeking... We prepare our body and set up the correct internal conditions for our practice. From here we begin to "light the fire" through the use of our breath and very precise methods until we have a healthy degree of energetic warmth in the lower abdomen.       And what are the methods he is talking about? Page 24:

Unlike many other traditions Neidan sitting practices seamlessly work together with standing and moving energetic exercises such as Dao Yin and Qigong to create a dynamic system which encompasses a veriety of internal techniques.  

To me it makes no sense. First of all what breath is he talking about? Second - Dao Yin is more health orintated, there are ancient forms of Dao Yin and some schools use it as preparatory methods but not as method of Neidan. Neidan methods are unique and comprise the Pai' unique method but this is not Dao Yin or Qigong. To me  he seems to mean the sitting as main method. Sitting produces Yin. 

Also Neidan does not use breath as it is postheaven energy, Neidan does not work qith postheaven energy.

So to me this sounds like Northern method of Neidan which quite widespread in China    

18 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

This is a pretty complex topic, and it sounds like you have access to a method that works for you already, anyways.

I do not practise Neidan yet

2 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

I can't, because I'm not at this stage yet.  I thought you were replying to Creation, who was talking about filling the Dan Tien.

I see. I saw specific feature of yuan qi development in one of the Wu Liu' practitioners. Does not matter to whom I am talking here, the idea is that everything should be verified. If I am right on the Damo' Northern path methods than this is quite specific method which I would not be attached.with.   

4 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

Yeah in the few years I've studied with him I think it's safe to say under 10% of what's public is shown in the books.  They're rich in theory but give only the safest and most basic of methods, because that's not really the modality for delivering complex methods.

I see... You say it works for people. Can you discribe any specific feature that can indicate that yuan qi is restored? In general I suppose this is Northern type of methods but may be I am wrong. Northern methods are based on sitting methods in which one is reaching utter Yin which then is supposed to be turned into Yang.

Yes, Russian preliminary method (Daogong) is quite specific one but in my opinion it is given in the outset quite reasonably for it allows  an individual to feel qi and it builds energy body balancing it. Also is very good for Yi development. With low Yi Neidan methods makes no sense     

Just wonder how one can verify Damo's method is authentic one? I did not even see he mentioned lineage from which he inherited methods. I read 2 books of him and to me it seems he teaches qigong mostly. Standing and sitting methods. I did not even notice proper preliminary method for balancing. Standing methods are not much of help without foundation or basic work which is supposed to be dynamic exercises. BUT this is only me personal opinion, I did not see all methods that he teaches and there might be far not everything disclosed in his books.   

20 minutes ago, apdo said:

I just left army no job yet so no money and my method is viod s method  I will check Dao mai too

Fair enough. In this case I suppose the best "method" is to be capable of earning. Without it no one can make progress on the Path. All life is the path (Dao)

23 hours ago, apdo said:

Lol I will just remove that question from my head I will use my own method and let it take the time it need if just need anything I will ask viod or in form no need to rush

But what is your method? You can do methods online if you have money. I know Russian branch Of Wu Liu does quite powerful transmission even online. 

Glory of the Sun (in Russian)

Above The Earth (Russian too)

9 minutes ago, Cleansox said:

Result:

I messed up my system a bit, then I found a teacher and started with a proper practice. 

 

And you? 

I was drinking and smoking a lot, then I found a teacher

Just now, Cleansox said:

You just invalidated a major division of Daoist schools. 

Okey... I am completely arrogant person. Can you elaborate on your experience of Mantek methods? 

1 hour ago, Cleansox said:

Zheng Yi works with purifying the post natal energetics, and await the Xing method to kick in for the pre natal to be completed. 

 

That sort of disqualifies that kind of methods from a Ming method discussion. 

But how Mantek Chia relates to any authentic Pai? To me it is mishmash of qigong methods which can only  lead to many sorts of deviations. If you want really to assess the quality of his "methods" at first you might want to taste the effects of the methods of any authentic Pai. If you do this then you are able to realize what is good and not for you. Mantek's methods and many others that use mind to lead qi strenuously can only harm people energy - some less than others - but all these methods will lead you nowhere. This is not even Xing. Xing and Ming are interrelated and they are cultivated simultaneously. The phrase "Cultivation of Xing first" means only that there is more stress on Xing in the outset but Ming is cultivated as well. Ming can not be transmitted through the book. Even "sentient beings" of other realms can not transmitt Ming. I recall some people used to say "you can get transmission from the Tao" on this forum but this is not true. It is pointless to talk about Xing and Ming methods until you find a knowlegeable Teacher. And the issue is not even in knowing movements but there is another essential factor that related to essence of our reality. Try to comprehend what are post- and preheaven energy. All individual "mind-body" nature (what one realizes as "I am") is postheaven in its nature. One can only have a glimpse on preheaven reality but hardly can comprehend the method. Even if he/she finds the describtion of the method then it is the the matter of how to overcome all blockages not being caught by dark entities 

6 minutes ago, Cleansox said:

And that fact have initiated heated discussions on the subject in the past. 

Yeah, I can see millions people disappearing in the space and leaving rainbows here and there after reading Mantek Chia's books.

9 hours ago, apdo said:

Well sadly I am not a Russian although I can use translator xd and thanks man

All Neidan methods are transmitted "from heart to heart" only. Translator is not much of help in this case. But of course you need to comprehend what teacher says to you. Real Ming methods have never been disclosed in books. 

And no comments 

If you read article about Tai chi chih you can read there that: " In 1974, Stone had written: ‘The movements...are the results of many years of experimentation. They represent an extension and development of the original movements taught by a Chinese master. The important principles have been retained as the repertoire has been expanded.’"

Later he could change his story on the origin of this system. For what a reason I do not know. The problem with westerners is that they far not always can do the same movements as Chinese masters do. May be other people can perform movements of tai chi chi right but as for this women she is somewhat stiff and if you watch her standing from 47:00 on the video her shoulders tend to go upright and she has more energy  on the top. If someone does not do it right but can experience sensations in hands in the meanwhile or in whatever another part of the body it can be, it does not mean they do it right. 

The goal of this system is not to feel energy in the hands and experiense sensations. It can be a sign of progress but it is not the main goal and it does not mean that the whole set is done correctly. Deviations can have very subtle form and not always can be perceived by senses. Also person can get used to deviations when they turn up and than it could hard even to realize that person is in trouble until they have substantial form 

On 05.02.2021 at 10:43 PM, tao stillness said:

So he decided to change it around so it would be easier to learn and perform and he called this Tai Chi Chih. The story about it being created for an Emperor for his sexual prowess sounds like one of those typical historical myths from ancient China.

The person from whom I learned these exercise said that he had learned it in China himself in 90s from Chinese master. He had never seen Justin Stone so this neigong originated from China and was not invented by Justin Stone. I sent link to person from whom I learned and he said he did not like the way it is done on the video somebody posted above (with old women). As I already mentioned they keep hands too high what makes the energy go up and causes imbalance. So I would not advise doing it without knowlegeable teacher.