Antares

4 minutes ago, Maddie said:

What is it that you want me to prove?

You say that modern humanity understands world better than our ancestors.

Secondly you say they were "hunter-gathers"

Yes, probably they were... but 50 000+ years ago

I know you can bring many sources on that... but you should be aware who writes these "scientific" works

3 hours ago, Pak_Satrio said:

Libraries weren’t burnt to destroy or hide knowledge, they were burnt to destroy the enemies knowledge.

Yes, but for some "people" all humanity is their enemy or.... (do research what is the origin of the word "homo" and what the "homo sapiens" means (for them) and then probably you will realize why knowledge is hidden )

On 1/15/2024 at 4:04 PM, Maddie said:

Modern science appeared by rejecting the claims that had no evidence and accepting the ones that did. And now your question is answered.

Firstly you need to bring ANY solid proof of the theory you declared here. Before you blame anybody else here. At least it would be polite from your side. I don't bring any because it would be off-topic.

14 hours ago, Neirong said:

I understand that it is fundamental human nature to be egoistic/egocentric and to judge reality by the limited perception that the self provides.

The question is how exactly human "became" egoistic? So you do believe that hunter-gathers were not egoistic and they were very primitive by nature but modern human being is egoistic and they are more "advanced" so that they understand reality better than hunter-gathers? We don't know much about our ancestors and I would even say we know nothing about them. The history is hidden and very much corrupted. The same concerns science and education in general. And I personally am believer that human DNA and minds are under control from ancient times. There was what they call "great reset".  From 15-16th century it began and finished by 20th century

14 hours ago, Neirong said:

But nothing is lost or "disappeared". Only because you or someone else does not have access or there is no book in public, it does not mean the knowledge and methods are lost or even that the practitioners of ancient arts do not exist.

Why many libraries were burnt then? What was the "crusading period"? Why Shaolin was burnt?

Now they say those people were primitive hunter-gathers.... Why they cant develop new I-CHING system? All ancient arts were diminished along with achievements of those civilizations which created it.

23 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

Source?

There are a few. Not going into it in this thread.

2 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

Maybe because people rejected science and believed whatever popped into their head?

When and how modern "science" appeared? Do you know that even before 19th century people were able to get electricity and heat from Ether?

15 minutes ago, Maddie said:

but you do believe that hunter-gatherers

The history is cyclic. I dont believe the historical "homeland" of modern "homo-sapience" was Africa and that they were hunter-gathers. All that is not more than preconceived notions. By the way do research what the origin of words ""nasa" and "homo". There are strict answers in their meanings. Also how do you think the why knowledge of "ancient arts" disappeared?  

2 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

We understand that the Earth rotates around the Sun and the sun around the center of the Galaxy now and we didn't used to, so yes.

It has not been proven yet. This is only the notion. I don't believe fake NASA "photos" of the Earth from "deep cosmos".

6 minutes ago, Maddie said:

I'm not sure if they understood "cosmic law" so well back then. They used to think the earth was the center of the universe and everything orbited it.

So you believe it is the other way around?

So then the modern person has no alternative, but to seek a direct transmission of knowledge , which  stems from the time, when the mankind have a clear understanding of cosmic laws. Of course, we can assume that a genius who can understand these law without could be born. But such an extraordinary person will not need anything at all from this world  let alone a  transmission. On the other hand there exist fake methods invented by ordinary people, these methods are usually only a projection of their mind and have nothing to do with the laws of Cosmos. Here is an example: Did Someone deciphered the Yi Jing? I think the answer is obvious.
Hence stem here need for  the personal transmission. In this case  firstly  there will be  no distortions, and secondly there will be personalized training for each person. Thirdly, in order to avoid deviations the practice will be done under the oversight of Teacher (and not like today, in stadiums, where participants do anything they want). Also, a ritual of accepting a student is a promise by the Teacher to be personally responsible for his student, to vouch for him, including with teachers own destiny...

古圣有言曰命由性修  性由命立 命者炁也性者神也炁  则本不离神神则有时  离炁
Ancient sages said:
Ming is perfected starting from Xing. Because you need the true spiritual condition to find your Teacher and then to practise, i.e. you need the correct  state of mind while practicing.
Xing is established starting from Ming. Without replenishing and perfecting of Ming the true spiritual work is impossible.
Qi is inherently inseparable from the Shen (the spirit). If qi ever comes apart from shen, there will be an instant death. So while the person is alive they are inseparable. (This refers to the out of body experiences of the spirit when qi remains in the body)

=======================================================================================================

Xing and Ming are interrelated. If you work on Xing it boosts your ability to work on Ming and other way around. In other words first one need to realize what is Yin, Yang, how to strengthen them and combine them. I am not sure that Zen people still have this knowledge. 

All this requires "transmission" - I am not sure how it was in ancient times. May be it was possible to "transmit data" straight into smbs mind or to bring person into certain state of mind but these times this should be steady process of "transmission" - that means student should work with his energies steadily beginning from purification of "heart - mind", working with channels, working with Yin and Yang, balancing it out. Teacher helps to recognize certain states of mind correcting this process. The most important thing is to reach the state of balance

14 hours ago, snowymountains said:

I don't know if they do anything about it nor if they consider it loss of life essence, it's just the first time I hear something along these lines, no teacher has ever brought this up, so can't confirm nor deny it.

They just don't know the daoist approach to it. Zen is actually corrupted Chinese Chan. Ancient Chan was equivalent of the daoist neidan. You can read a few articles here

https://www.all-dao.com/essence-taoist-alchemy.html

https://www.all-dao.com/dazuo-meditation.html

2 minutes ago, snowymountains said:

Still, it sounds that any hypothetical negative impact is only for the teacher, correct ?

This seems at odds with that a lot of these Roshis die at a very late age

But eventually they die. The loss of life essence can be compensated by their virtue -- healthy lifestyle and so on. The downside comes from long seated meds so it depends how long they do it and also they could have some methods to compensate the loss of life essence, I don't know their approach well to comment it. The most important thing is what they reached on the path of enlightenment 

8 minutes ago, snowymountains said:

In Zen I'm not aware of any teacher who perceives direct transmission as a method to do "data transfer", it's more about sharing a mental state

This seems to be very similar to northern daoist schools methods. At first they try to recognize the nature of Xing (or in other words to recover it or to obtain yuan shen) but they do it by loosing their life essence. So you should be aware of this danger. Qigong methods won't help to restore it. There are many traps on this path

56 minutes ago, snowymountains said:

n Zen student-teacher interviews teachers do talk btw, which would had been superfluous if they operated under the assumption that they can transmit whole teachings with direct transmission.

It depends what you mean by "direct transmission". Some teachers can share their energy to get student to certain state, another teacher transmit methods only, it really depends on a lineage and student' state and ability to grasp methods, also methods differ. 

2 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

we have none either so welcome to the club!

Yes indeed

Just now, Master Logray said:

Reading your link, it doesn't seem to imply anything about psychic transmission of information, if it is what the title has indirectly pointed to.

I would not take seriously what he writes here. He has no clue what these texts about

3 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

in your case you speculate that 2 different chinese words mean the same thing: i.e pointing means transmission.

they are interrelated. texts research won't help much

25 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

Simply because there never was such thing as  "direct pointing from teacher to student"

It depends what "direct pointing" means. It is not possible to understand the path of Dao without "transmission". There can be "pointing" at different aspects of practices.   

On 1/13/2024 at 2:23 AM, Sahaja said:

I think secrecy is more straightforward, they say this is not for you to share.  they teach you in private and tell you to practice in private/not to share without permission. 

Of course. That is why you can not find such methods somewhere in public "Dojos" (open for everyone) and "training centres" (where you just "pay and train"). Even if this is "closed group" teachers will hide secrets. Normally they give out only sets of exercises saying that this is nei kung (internal work). This can be the case but they dont provide proper explanations of how to do it. Far not all people who teach it really understand what they teach. They may have some achievements but how profound they are is big question.  Regarding to this topic what exactly is "direct pointing"? Pointing to what?  

4 hours ago, Taomeow said:

For those who know what his immediate plans were

What were his plans? Don't forget to mention what plans global "elite" had against eastern regions and their plans got cancelled as the result of Stalin' counter measures

8 minutes ago, Sahaja said:

Used to be debates between

It is not only about saying words but it is the matter of achievements. I think you heard about daoist immortals. Of course there could be achievements among buddhists in Tibet (rainbow body achievements) but not in China. So here I talked about withered Chan because Zen (Chan) was mentioned here

4 minutes ago, Maddie said:

But to answer your question as to why they might criticize I have no idea other than human beings tend to be critical? I really don't know.  

Daoists could see the energy and what happens with one's energy if one does incorrect methods and where it leads. 

4 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

Of course

That's good and why you think daoists criticized buddhist methods in their scriptures even in scriptures which are dated from 9-10th centuries? (need to check dates again)

Just now, Maddie said:

We were discussing if your claim about the Buddha's teachings being corrupted was true or not.

Have you ever read daoist scriptures? Being here for 15 years

10 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

you're projecting motive and intent onto me. 

which intent? you are in daoist discussion. you have posted so many posts and not even read what people have written here for 10+ years. do research first, i cant do it for you