DreamBliss

I just wrote this post on meditation: http://adifferentpath.blog.com/2014/08/31/meditation/ I do not normally "toot my own horn" outside of sharing such things on Facebook and Twitter. But I think I have stumbled onto something worth sharing here. These words may be of some help or use to someone. Feel free to discuss this post in this thread. all feedback is welcome.

Everyone, thank you for your feedback! This is a learning process for me. I will need to take more time to read through this again to make sure I "get" what you are all saying. Spotless thank you for this additional perspective. I am having trouble absorbing it right now but I will return to what you have written. I would like a link to this thread you advised I read if you don't mind providing it. Speaking generally then, is it the consensus of everyone who has posted here that what I have stated is accurate? Or is there anything I should add, perhaps insert into the text somewhere with the user name of whoever said it? Did I miss anything? Please understand I have no guru or teacher other than what you read about in spiritual texts that you already have inside. Everything I have written was experiential, from I guess a beginner's perspective, although maybe I am not a beginner, I would have to leave that up to someone else to determine. Inexperienced would be a better word. In any case my purpose was to provide information that I had not yet encountered, which I thought was valuable enough to share. As Ram Dass says, it may be someone's "game" to struggle with meditation for years, but if I can do anything to help others not go through what I went through, if I can help in any way, I will. But ultimately, everyone has their own path up the mountain. Everyone has to make their own choices and decisions. Everyone grows their own way. The best a teacher can do, I think, is put the information out there and trust that it will get to those who need or want it. Or maybe we are just setting the foundation for the development of the human race as a whole. Well whatever the case may be, I will gladly set the stones of my experience in place if they will be of any benefit to anyone.

So far, in my spiritual journey, I have been exposed to two views about God. As a Christian God is seen as the bearded man in the sky somewhere. God is seperate. God is loving, but can be angry or jealous. God judges, God is affected by the things we do, think or say. God hates sin. God is outside of me, seperate from me. God has some sort of plan for His creation. This idea of God does not evolve. Now, as whatever this is, the Source is seen as both outside of and one with all of creation. The Source is seen as an energy, The Source has no ego. The Source remians unaffected by what I do, say or think. The Source sees the Truth of who I am. The Source has no plans and does not judge. The Source just is. The Source may be loving in essence, but there is uncertainty here, because if love exists then so does the possibility of its opposite. This idea of God, as Source, is still evolving. But this brings up two nearly identical questions. If the Christian idea of God is true, and Heaven is perfect, where did the sin of jealousy come from, that Lucifer and 1/3 of the angels woudl fall? There can be no imperfection in perfection. If God is perfect, if Heaven, His home is perfect, then sin can not exist there. It could no more grow there then a redwood seed could sprout and grow on the moon. If, on the other hand, God is not seperate, if the Source is one with all of creation, how did parts of itself decide that they wanted to be seperate, to become you and I, the things in creation, and experience things from that persepctive? If the Source is in some unchanging state, free of any ego, and therefrore desireless, how did parts of itself desire to experience seperation? It would be the same as if my arm suddendly desired to experience life seperate from my body, and dropped off. This is telling me there is something wrong with both perspectives of God. There are holes in each definition where there should be no holes. What do you think? What is your explanation?

I find it discouraging the things we do in the name of God. I find it even more discouraging the things people of God, whatever their religion, do to others. People should not be punished for their sexual attractions or preferances. But I can't help but feel if our society and its religions were truly healthy, for lack of a better word, there would be no molestation, rape, or same sex relationships. I think these are all products of mankind at this point in their development/evolution. Everything we call a crime, and everything we fight to have the right to do, from abortion to rasing kids in an unbalanced, same sex parental relationship - it is all a byproduct of our society, in my opinion. I feel, I think, that if mankind developed and evolved spiritually all this stuff would just disappear. These diseases, emotional, mental and physical, that we have been passing down to our childen for the last few thosuand years will die out. In that world I see mankind living hamroniously with themselves, each other, their planet, and their collective, universal idea of whatever force created/developed/evolved them. However mankind's views develop as the race grows spiritually. I listen to Alan Watts and I begin to see things a little more clearly. The "porcelin" VS "automatic" ideas of the universe, ingrained in our speech patterms for as long as man has had speech. I get discouraged again, because the "New Thought" teachers I love, like Wayne Dyer, are obviously working from the flawed automatic model. The universe as some sort of machine. If Christians and other O.R. don't have it right, and the "New Thought" people don't have it right, how in the hell do I figure out how to interact and work with the energy of creation to create the life I want for myself and manifest the things I want for myself, and is this even something I can do? If I can't in any way cause the life I want to happen and bring the things I want into that life, then what the fuck is the point in living? That means my life is stuck on some pre-programmed course that can not be affected by me in any way. At least I had hope with the "New Thought" teachings like E-Squared! God didn't mess up. Man did. Man's idea of God has been and probably is, for the most part, flawed. Maybe some understand the Truth. I am not, and won't claim to be, one of them. Maybe there is no God, or Source, as I refer to God now. Maybe there is no originating energy. Or maybe there is no creator, but there is still an energy that connects all of us and makes us one. I don't know, and I wish I understood, had an experience of, the Truth. If life is a play I fogot my lines and I hope someone off-stage reads them to me. If life is a dance I came in with two left feet. In either case, someone please teach me how to act or dance so I can stop stumbling around over here! This sucks! Now I am even more depressed than I was...

rene I am curious, what are your "after death" thoughts? I re-read what you said in this thread but either I am missing it or it's not here. But I would love to get your perspective on this. Also thank you for your last post. I think I agree with your point of view here. I just wish I could get a better handle on this. But maybe what I said in another thread is right. Maybe ____ is unknowable and unthinkable. Maybe feelings/intuition, feeling your way through, is the way to come to a better understanding here.

I am learning to be with the place where I don't know. To be OK with that. This need to know comes from the intellect. But as many here and in the books I have read have said, you can not think your way to enlightenment. You can't even think your way to an experience of God. All subjects spiritual are unthinkable and unknowable. We only think we know them To explore the spiritual, move away from the intellect, and towards intuition. Feel your way forwards spiritually. Allow yourself tyo be guided, to do the things that don't make any sense on an intellectual level. I think perhaps this is the way to proceeed, assuming anyone is going anywhere.

I am sorry to hear that happened to you. I love how unchristian Christians can tend to be. How they can read a passage such as "Turn the other cheek..." or "Love one another..." then do something like that. It makes me sad for them, that they are so immature and insecure in their faith. They haven't figured out yet that God is perfectly capable of defending Himself and has no need of any human defense or intervention. Also they have not yet learned that of something is True, nothing anyone does, says or thinks will change it. So if their beliefs are True, if the Bible is Truth, then it will live on, eternally and infinitely, no matter what. If it is not True then it will fade away. Nothing that is not True stands for long. I agree that orgainized religion is mind control. And if a forums banned me for saying that, then I would be glad, because that would not be a healthy forums for me to be visiting. I think an organized religion such as Christanity is a basic, "baby food" sort of spirituality, perfect for those who are not ready for real "meat and potatoe" spiritaulity. I think O.R. speaks best to those who are very narrow or simple minded. If any of what I have said here hurts or sparks offense I do apologize. But I am only sharing my opinion, and as I was a Christian for 20 years, I think I earned that right. In my experience O.R. works well for those who are unable or unwilling to think for themselves. My view of the originator, previously God, now Source, is that this is a sort of sentient energy that is one with all of creation, connecting all of us. But, as I said, I see the hole in this viewpoint. So my idea of Source may be changing again soon. I do think that everything started somehow, and I doubt the big bang theory is the answer. I am leaning towards an initial creation, from which everything evolved. But I may be leaving this viewpoint behind. Unlike when I was a Christian, my beliefs about Source are free to change. I can release them as needed. My spiritual pratice is not a part of my identity. As a Christian my religion was a part of my identity. I think this is why Christians, and followers of other O.R., attack any who challenge their beliefs. Because any attack on their religion is also an attack on their identity. Millions have died in human history because of this stupdity, because of this thing called ego. Millions more may die before we all learn, as a race, how to move past the ego and live harmoniously with each other and our planet. Before we learn how to believe whatever we believe, and hold those beliefs loosely, not making them a part of our identity. I guess when I started this thread I was hoping for some understanding. If we are one with the Source, yet we created this illusion of seperation, how does that work? Why would Source need or want to see itself from any other perspective? How could parts of the Source create this illusion? Because as I said, if the Source is desireless, then there should have been nothing that would drive the creation of this illusion of seperation. And the idea that on dying, the ultimate goal is to merge back into the Source, sounds about as fun to me as the idea of sticking around Heaven for eternity. The astral planes are reportadly vast. I would like to go exploring once I am free of my physical body. That alone might take me many thousands of years. I have no more interest in going to Heaven than I do to end up in Hell, and no more interest in either of those than merging into the Source, no matter how wonderous the experience may be. I want to be free to explore. I want to experience the freedom there I have, as yet, been unable to experience here in physical reality. I just don't want to adopt another Holy (pun intended) belief system, and this Advaitist's "We are all one with everything..." non-belief belief system seems to be as flawed as the Christian's. It was part of my definition of the Source, and it fits in some ways, such as everything's interconnectedness, but in other ways things don't seem right. Maybe my understanding is wrong. Just looking for clarity here.

I don't know that I have any answer for you. But it is my understanding that in Buddhism, suffering comes from seeking, from attachment to something or aversion from something, My understanding may be wrong, but if not, perhaps you need to redfine what causes suffering. I would say suffering comes not from seeking, but a failure to realize you are already perfect, and you already have everything you need. You only think you need or want these things. You only think you need to give up. These feelings are all coming from thoughts. They are all illusion or maya. They are not the Truth. You are one with the Source, so you are one with all. You can never gibe up or loose anything. You are already one with whatever it is you need or want. Understand that your happiness is not derived from having, or sadness derived from giving up. Who you really are, inside, that part of you that lives on, remains unaffected.

OK to start there are some things you need to be aware of... I want to keep this "open ended", and I want to avoid giving power to something by saying it exists. Also I do not believe in destiny, fate, karma or sin. I think there may be a purpose to one's life, that maybe that came into life with the purpose, and that there may be a dream someone has about something they want to do that ties in with that purpose. Essentially I think there is a sort of True Path or Best Path or The Most Correct Path or something like that, and we need to be able to release and let go of anything that would interfere with our walking that path. One's purpose and possible one's dream is found in walking that path as freely and unobstructively as possible. One's truest happiness and joy comes from walking that path. You do not need to believe these things as I do to help me. Only to understand the concept I am trying to express here. So these are some statements: My desire... To do the things... I am interested in doing... Is protected... As long as it's compatible... With my path (pause.) My desire... To do the things... I am interested in doing... Is strong... As long as it fits... With my path (pause.) My desire... To do the things... I am interested in doing... Is retained... As long as it fits... With my path (pause.) I have the desire... To do the things... I am interested in doing... Until I need... To let it go (pause.) Unless I need... To let it go... I keep the desire... To do the things... I am interested in doing (pause.) Unless I should let it go... I retain the desire... To to the things... I am interested in doing (pause.) If it fits... With my path... I have a strong desire... To do the things... I am interetsed in doing (pause.) If it fits... With my path... My desire... To do the things... I am interested in doing... Is protected (pause.) If it fits... With my path... My desire... To do the things... I am interested in doing... Is retained (pause.) I hope you can see what I am trying to do here. This is for a second version of my latest self-hypnosis script entitled, "DRIVE." I have the sense of a possible agency, energy or force that, not being able to keep me from doing the things I am interested in doing, because of the new programming, is now attacking the desires itself. Without assuming such an agency, energy or force exists, and while using the admit, allow and accept process, I want to stop any such possible attacks. I know the script works, that the new programming does work. I started up modeling and exercising again, among other things. I wanted to do these things I am interested in doing again. But today it felt like desire was waning. The conscious mind and the ego are amazing constructs. Trying to work against these mechanisms, to interfere with their interference, is not an easy task. I just want to ensure that they didn't find another way to stop me here. Just want to make a simple statement along the lines of the ones I have posted here. One sentence, as clear and open-ended as possible. Any ideas or suggestions? Please post.

Surprisingly I have not, yet, done a script for material gain. I have been focused on correcting about 20+ years of American Society Christian Religion programming. I have written scripts for writing, since I have a natural affinity here but also some sort of resistance to it, dreaming, specifically lucid dreaming, and OBE, what I call Out of Body Explorations. Of course I have also done this script for DRIVE. I have been a Neutral too damn long. Time to put myself in DRIVE. Any programming done in self-hypnosis can be undone in self-hypnosis. There is nothing to fear in taking control of the programming you recieve. In fact, in modern society, it may take people repragmming themselves to allow them to pull away from the pack and change the ego-driven materialsitic focus most people here in America seem to posess. I am going over my DRIVE script statements to see if anything is ego or seeker driven. Clues should be an inflexability. Either am attachment to something or an aversion to something. If there is flexibility the ego/seeker should not be in control. You may critique my latest collection of statements here: I am willing... To do what it takes... To succeed... At what I am interested in doing (pause.) I admit... Allow... And accept... Any beliefs... About what I am interested in doing (pause.) I admit... Allow... And accept... Any challenges... In what I am interested in doing (pause.) I admit... Allow... And accept... Any resistance... To what I am interested in doing (pause.) It is my natural state... To succeed... At what I am interested in doing (pause.) I am releasing any beliefs... About what I am interested in doing (pause.) I feel energized and ready... To do what I am interested in doing (pause.) It is my natural tendency... To do what I am interested in doing (pause.) It is my natural tendency... To complete... Anything I start (pause.) I am having fun... Doing what I am interested in doing (pause.) I am having fun... Working through any challenges (pause.) I am celebrating my success (pause.) I apologize for any sharp edges in my previous posts.

OK, so removing all the esoteric nonsense, what do I do? By that I mean how to I deal with this interference in those things I am interested in doing?

I feel as if I am not being properly understood. To my knowledge it is not desire, but the seeking towards a desire, that brings about suffering. It is trhe attachment or aversion. I am not sure where desire is coming into this. But what I am doing here is preserving my interests, as long as I have them in the natural flow of my life. No attacthment, no aversion. I will let them go if, in the natural flow of my life, I outgrow them or move on. I am trying to remove any interference that causes this freezing. If there is something in me that is sabotaging my pursuit of these things that curfrently interest me, something most likely in the ego, this is my approach to dealing with it. If there is an interference I am sure it is in the ego. Maybe something in me wants me to fail. Maybe something in me is comfortable with my sitting around, accomplishing nothing. Maybe something in me is afraid of success. The ego, in these instances, becomes a millstone around my neck. I want to remove this influence from me. I do that not by getting stronger, so I can drag around the millstone easier - that just makes the millstone more real. Also not cutting it from around my neck, that again makes it real. It has to have some sort of reality to be able to be cut. Better to program myself that the millstone isn't even there. That removes its power from me, without resistance, fighting, aversion or attachment. In short, my suspcision, and that is all it is - a suspicion - is that something in me is sabotoging my efforts to develop, grow and learn in these subjects that have been of interest to me for many years. These subjects hold this interest because they are there, in the natural flow of my life and have been there, for most of it. If reincarnation is real, it is likely that any of these subjects, or all of them, are what I came here to master in this life. Do you understand now? I am removing the power, through these statements and the use of the self-hypnosis script, from any sabotoging agency or energy, without giving it power. So one final time... Are the latest of my two statements the best for this purpose, and if not, how would you word them? Please post your wording of them, it its entirety, and explain why you have worded it so. Thank you. BTW... Suffering is also found in not desiring. Let's say you live in a gutter somewhere, and winter is coming. Not desiring shelter and warmth will not protect you from the elements. You will freeze to death. Not desiring = ignorance. It does no good, whatsoever, to be a martyr, and those who advise martyrdom have probably never been a martyr. Desire will do one useful thing. It will cause you to get up, off your ass, and seek warmth and shelter. You increase you chances of surviving. If you die, at least you respected your physical life enough to try to find a way to survive. It is a dishonor to the gift of your physical life to simply lay back, desireless, and let death come. It is senseless, stupid and unintelligent to claim non-desire as some badge of honor in negative circumstances where suffering is already happening, and especially in the face of death. If that is you, you better hope reincarnation is real, so you can get it the fuck right in your next life. "If the spark does not desire the tinder there is no flame." - DreamBliss "To seek an end to suffering is to desire non-suffering." - DreamBliss

I didn't read this whole thread and only scanned over the last post. My first reply was humorous. But this reply may have some negativity in it. I don't know why, but I have been feeling dark, for lack of a better word, all day. It is in that feeling/way of being that I now post, so please be forewarned. I am sick and f-ing tired of people trying to sell me on ritual. I read a book by an authoress in the Magical path. It's called, "Magical Knowledge Book 1." Stuff like Astral Projection requires this big prepetory process - ritual. I read how thsi previous poster studied for 10 years with some Gnostic master. OK. Well Robert Monroe did neither of those things. And a lot of other people just up and leave their bodies as easily as probably the majority of them lucid dream. There is no spiritual growth or development requied. It is not some specicialed skill or talent. All that is going on here is some people "get it" a little faster. Unfortunately for me I am one of the slow ones, and I strongly desire to curse whatever agency or energy made me that way. I am f-ing sick and f-ing tired of having to be slow at these things that I want to experience so badly. It is a constant struggle to have even one lucid dream. The single time I managed to astral project all I remember is talking to somebody on a park bench, something about the light, and slamming into my body. I have no memory of leaving my body and what I do remember leaves doubts that I even projected in the first place. I just say I projected, for a positive mindset. I have learned enough that trying hard to do something will just make it harder to do, and you have to step out in faith as if you have already experienced that which you wish to experience. I read about these experiences others have. I do not seek enlightenment. But it would be really f-ing nice to have a lucid dream, for example, and ask to experience the truth about good/evil - light/dark, as is described in Wagonner's book. Or to, at the very least, leave my body, fully conscious, and explore where I live from that non-physical perspective. Is that realy too much to ask? I even changed my damn diet and went lacto ovo vegetarian so I would not have heavy foods holding me back. What do I get for all the effeort expended, reading and time spent? Vivid dreams - that's it. I am thankful for this. I know some people experience colorless dreams or lack of detail. So in this area I seem to be one of the ones to pick something up quickly - what appears to be a natural ability. But I do not believe anyone is more gifted in any area than anyone else. Like I said, some pick stuff up quicker, and maybe, if reincarnation is real, there is something from that contributing. I just wanted to vent about this, and also request, that you stop trying to sell folks on rituals. Magic doesn't have to be cast from the tip of a wand or staff. You don't need special words. All this crap serves only to train your mind that "Hey, he's swinging that wand around a certain way and saying those words so its time for magic to happen." I don't know how to explain this any better. The actions and words make what you are trying to do more real to you. But there is no need for a physical componant to non-physical explorations. When you hypnotize yourself, you don't have to light candles, draw symbols on the floor, utter certain words, have eaten a certain food at a certain time, yada, yada, yada. You sit back, close your eyes, and let your body fall asleep. Then you bore you consious mind to death so the subconsious takes over. THEN the magic of reprogramming yourself through self-hypnosis can happen. In other words, throw out all the physical, "real world" crap, including rituals, that get in between you and something like astral projection. These phsyical things may be of some service, like meditation. But cut as much of the fat away from the meat as possible. All this extraneous stuff is fat, and makes non-physical activities cumbersome and weighty. FYI, I give everyone here permission to find me and rip me out of my body if you are able and willing to. I am usually asleep between 4AM - 2PM Pacific Standard Time. I think that to ever develop the ability to leave my body and be consious, I will have to have some help. So I am asking for it. I am getting nowhere on my own, and it should be obvious I am frustrated. Anyone can learn anything. Anything is possible - all possibilities exist. There is nothing you can not do, but you have to believe it. Your beliefs, level of openess and receptivity will determine what you experience. The only boundaries that exist are the ones you have drawn yourself or adopted from others. Someday, I pray soon, all humanity will realize this. All humanity will wake up. And every child will expeirence the truth of endless possibility for themselves.

I really don't know how to properly respond to the previous posters individually at this moment, so I will do so collectively. What is a Tzujan, what do I need to know or understand about it, assuming it is something that can be known or understood? The script is not designed to create or judge desires. It merelyt supports them, so they can freely change as needed as I change. However, I think some things stick with you. Some people call these dreams or a path or a purpose. I think they do anyway. Not having a clear one of these myself I am merely drawing logical conclusions. Some interests have stuck with me, been with me a long time. Making maps for various video games. Making models for those maps. Drawing. Singing. A desire to create music that I have never gotten very far with. Photography. Other interests came with certain events in my life. I realzied I didn't like the extra baggage around my middle so I wanted to loose weight. I realized I hated certain kinds of emplyment and work. I realized there were some kinds of work that I was OK with, and I wanted to do more of that. The problem comes when I am sitting here, in this very chair, frozen. I have this desire to make a map, to model, to go out and do some Zen photograpy, to have a quick barefoot run/walk (my current favorite form of exercise.) I end up doing none of these things, or worse, watching TV. But in order to get better at anything, and for an activitry to have a culmitive effect., I must pratcie. I must sing to master singing, program to master programmig, level design to master mapping, make models to master modeling. I have to develop my skills to the point that maybe, just maybe, I can find employment and work to support myself doing these things I like to do, that I am interested in doing. If I never develop my skills sufficiently, I am ultimately wasting my time. Having fun, enjoying one's life, certainly has value, but it will not put clothes on your back, a roof over your head, or food in your stomach. That is why I made this script. To unfreeze myself, remove the blocakges, remove the resistance. But I have to walk carefully here, because resisisting resistance gives it power over you. The key is to flow, be water. Work around the stone - those blockages, that resistance. I am not going to war with whatever it is inside me that is causing this freezing. That makes this energy or force my enemy. Instead I am embracing it, surrpounding it, letting it be as it is while I flow past. It is neither enemy or friend. It simply is, and I treat it more as friend than enemy. Love is the grease that makes the gears turn. At least this is my understanding, at this present moment. If my interests change naturally, on their own, as I change, that is OK. But as long as my interests atre still my interests, I want to be open to them and to experience them for as long as they are naturally, in the flow of my life, mine. I do not want to be sitting here, frozen, unable to map, model or take pictures. I want to spend every moment developing, exploring, growing and recieving. I do not want to waste a single moment of time while I am in this physical body where every moment counts and has value. Does that explain this very well? Do my last three statements have things covered, or should I word them differently? How? This is what I am asking, of others further down the path, so-to-speak, than I am, at this moment. Also I agree with the map seller advice.

My guess... You're either like me, not practicing regularly enough, or you're going the other extreme and trying too hard. Trying to make anything happen happens to be very trying. It also happens to make it harder for it to happen. You need to find a method that "clicks" with you are speaks to you, and stick with it. No expectations, doing the same thing for a month to start. Pretty much the same crap you have to go through to become lucid. It could take you a week or 3 months. Practice is the key, along with a journal of your experiences. You need to record your dreams and all Out of Body Explorations. If you are really lucky, you can find someone to take you out of your body. I have been looking for someone to do that for me for some time. You know, lend a helping hand. All you can do is ask. If you do find someone, please point them my direction once you have had your first conscious OBE.

For that matter, how come dropping acid or using shrooms is not on TripAdvisor? I think the real problem is there are no hotels to book, and no reason for them. BTW, what the heck is TripAdvisor? I was just assuming it was one of those online traveling things like Expedia...

I think I have it covered, but tell me what you think: I admit... Allow... And accept... Any beliefs... About what I am interested in doing (pause.) I admit... Allow... And accept... Any challenges... In what I am interested in doing (pause.) I admit... Allow... And accept... Any resistance... To what I am interested in doing (pause.) This should work, because it is in resisting the resistance that resistance has any power over you. The bullet only kills you because your body resists it. Your body resists it because you have a belief that if a bullet goes through your body it can harm you - you can die. If somehow you were able to loose that belief, and give the bullet no power over you, it would pass right through your body, unresisted, and you would be fine. The person behind you would not though, so be careful if you use this in your nightly superhero adventures... So what I am saying here is that resistance coming in the form of not having the desire as strongly anymore should have no effect with these statements, because the subject is allowing the resistance to pass right on through. It is admitted, allowed and accepted. There is no resistance to the resistance. It is allowed to be there, do its thing, and leave on its own when it has been worked out. Now that I think about it, this is similar to how meditation is usually taught. You sit down and allow thoughts to happen. You just observe them. You are, in essence, non-resistant to the thoughts. The goal is to not resist them, force them away, or latch onto them. You just observe them and let them do their thing. Never really thought about that before...

OK, I am going to go on a little ego trip here. I am venting, getting stuff out, trying to understand. It's coming from reading Ram Das's “Be Here Now.” Understand that I am not apologizing to any spiritually mature beings, for lack of a better description. If they are spiritually mature they can't be offended by anything I say or do anyway. I mean I get that much at least. But I do apologize to the devotees, the followers, the not-spiritually-mature-at-this-moment beings. I know the ego can take offense. The ego wants to defend, to protect. You know you have graduated to spiritually mature when you realize that you have no need to defend or protect your guru, he or she is perfectly capable of defending themselves. Moving on... OK, so this Mahari-Ji guy, Ram Das's teacher in India, is said, by Ram Das, to have thrown people out who went looking for him and found him. That he appeared to them as a little old man in a blanket. This appearance thing is something Ram Das must have picked up, because I know of one account where someone looked at him and his faced cycled through a lot of faces. I know when I look at Ram Das pictures I just see a little old man. So chances are were I to see someone like Mahari-Ji that would be all I would see. I think it highly likely I would be someone thrown out. But I want to know why! Why would a supposedly spiritually mature being do this to seekers? Why would he or she need to? What purpose does this serve? What is the point? What is the seeker supposed to learn from what they will most likely take as rejection (the damn ego again?) I know I would feel dejected and rejected, were I to be thrown out like that. I want to understand this! The other thing I want to understand is why in the hell India? It's like the soil over there in the India/Tibet area grows spiritually enlightened beings or something. It's not the 3rd world cesspool environment, or we would have gurus popping up all over the place in America. It's not the Hindu religion, because no religion is %100 right, and the Hindu faith has some series issues like the whole untouchables things. It's not the Ganges, unless polluted water is the secret to growing gurus, because if that were the case my old hometown of Rainier, OR would be flooded with them. So why India? Why not Canada, or Africa, or the frikkin' North Pole, or Russia? Why is it that the largest concentration of gurus happens to be in India? I just don't get it. It makes an American, like me, without a passport, feel like I am hearing tales of some strange far away land where gods walk the earth in some form of Lord of the Rings tale. I have to come up with thousands of dollars to get a passport and a ticket. Then I have to deal with the mass of humanity flooding the streets of India, including a vast assortment of con artists. If somehow I survive, literally, the streets of India and make it into the mountains, then I have to figure out where a true guru may reside. So chalk up a few more months. Then I finally find a real guru and what? I get chucked out on my arse! Then in every spiritual text I read they all say, “It's all right here!” Yup, its inside me. I don't need a guru, somewhere deep inside me is my own guru. Which amounts to, in my experience up to this present moment at least, to I just have to figure it all out by myself. Nobody to talk to. No advice, direction, guidance. Nothing. I have no idea how to access these answers I supposedly already have. It is easier to go to India and risk getting killed, robbed or thrown out. How do I explain this? Drinking a beer with someone over the internet, VOIP or not, is not the same as sitting down with them right across the table! Coming to this forums here, as wonderful as they are, is not the same as sitting down, old man in a blanket or not, and having a physical presence I can interact with and hear! Some things require a physical body, like sex, for example. I'm sorry, but making love over the internet is a poor substitute at best for having someone in your arms that you can see, taste, touch, here and smell! And anyway, I have this physical body for a reason! I mean if I didn't need it, I wouldn't be wearing the stupid thing, now would I? Can someone help me understand this? Come to terms with this? Find some peace or resolution here? Maybe there is a point of view I am missing or something. I just don't see how someone who is supposed to be loving could throw anyone out who sought them. Maybe my definition of love needs work. But I don't recall Jesus ever doing that to anyone in the Bible. As I recall He always tried to help everyone He could, and was sad when He could not. Isn't Jesus's example the highest form of love we could attain while in physical bodies? I am 38 years old. I will soon be 39. I know time does not exist, it is a creation of man. All it means is how many times I have been around the sun. But I am lonely and feeling lost. I have no friend and certainly no lover. I have no master or teacher. Not that I can have anyone in a possessive sense. Just the way it has to be written in English. I am not seeking ownership. I would like apprenticeship, companionship, courtship, friendship. Just a few days ago I attended a graduation party for our neighbors – family friends – down the road. I should say my dad and grandma's family friends, although I know them. Anyhow their oldest daughter, she is so pretty! Just being around her was like being a solar panel struck by the hot desert sun. I don't know how else to describe the experience. But I know I am about the age of her uncles. I have 20 years on her. I have a knowing that any attempt at a relationship would be wrong, for her I think, and maybe for me. I don't know what the hell my path is supposed to be. But the point is it hurts. It hurts like a motheryouknowwhat. And I am damn tired of hurting. Ego or not, a knife blade, figurative or literal, still hurts like a sonofagun. I am left with only a question, why is it, that up until this moment, I seem to have always been in the group of the rejected or thrown out ones? What does that mean? What can I do about it? How can I change this? I am tired of not fitting in, of being a square peg in a round hole, of not having my own clique'. Where does a late 30 year old, spiritual but not religious, man who shares the interests of most teenagers, supposed to fit in a small town with 12 churches within hollerin' distance? Again I ask, help me to get this, to understand it. To come to terms. To find peace somehow with things as they seem to be. If you have a spare finger and the knowledge of where to point it, then by all means, do so for me. Because I am feeling really alone and lost right now. I feel like I don't matter, that I have no place or purpose. And I am feeling the sharp, cutting edge of loneliness in my guts, twisting there, and I just wish I had someone to be with. But I have no idea what I need to do, if anything, to be ready for that. I am open and receptive. I am working on myself, growing. I am delving inside, doing my inner work. I am learning each lesson that comes my way to learn. The proof is that I am not who I was before. If distance were to be measured on a spiritual journey I could say I have come so far. But I just feel more and more confused, lost and unsure. Please just help me understand.

I guess the guru must be feel that the people are trying to buy their spirituality, by paying for it with money (which is just paper with stuff printed on it) and time (which is probably just about as valuable.) So expending all that time, money and effort would then not be enough. On the other hand, if someone truly thinks that is the way to get the answers they seek, or to become enlightened, shouldn't a guru, if they are truly loving, point them in the right direction, instead of shoving them out the door? It all comes back to love. If you are truly loving, how can you reject anyone? If you are a reflection of the Source, and the Source loves all, and rejects none, how can you reject any? If you decide to give someone the middle finger, instead of pointing someone to the moon, how is that person ever going to see the moon? All they will see is your middle finger. I don't know how to make this more clear. I will do as another poster suggested. I give up.

...And the dream of the mountain...

I would have thought that figuring out where they guy (or gal) was, looking for him (or her) and then traveling all the way there would have been enough.

A guru would understand that many are hungry and seeking nourishment. But there are few in the world offering spiritually nutritious meals. I can not speak to any other's experience. I can only say that I have determined that if I have anything worthwhile to teach, and anyone was seeking those teachings, that I would embrace them, were they to come to me. I would not kick anyone out. But this statement is made by one who is not enlightened and knows no better. Someone just going on what feels right. "Do unto others..."

Well I am no biologist. My guess is that a dolphin is not using time, but some sense of how long something takes. Hard to explain, not up to the task. Essentially a dolphin, like a dog waiting for its owner, is not watching any clock with numbers on it. A dolphin does not think like a human, that "I sent out the signal at 4:00 PM and it bounced back at 4:05." Nor does a dolphin think, "it has been 5 minutes." There must be some way of evaluating how long, but the dolphin has no sense of time passing. But like I said, I am no biologist. I will not continue to belabor this. If what seems to me to be Truth really is true, you will know it when you are ready for it. If it is not truth and I discover that, I will release it and let it go. All I can say is that it feels right to me, to say that time does not exist.

To quote myself: I am lonely. In a physical sense I have nobody to share my life with, no friends, nowhere I fit. To quote you, quoting me: Who would like to be friends with someone who harms others and still keeps going that way??? I do not understand this statement. When I called you Padawan I was trying to be humorous. My interpretation was that you thought my post was too long and you wanted me to simplify it for you. I misunderstood you, I apologize. I am truly and deeply sorry. I guess I wasn't paying close enough attention to what you said. It seems as if you were giving me an exercise. I am not up to that right now. But I have saved this thread, and may work on that later, although I make no commitments or promises.

Beliefs are like water, and I am practicing being a duck... All I can say for certain is that no dog watches a clock waiting for its owner to come home. It may hear its owner from far off, might have a psychic sense of its owner coming, or may know when certain things happen during the day, like the rain, or breakfast, or when its owner comes home. But I am pretty sure the dog is not lying there, ears pricked, thinking, "It's 6:00 PM! My human will be home soon!" Time does not exist for any other life form on this planet other than humans. But I am caught up in the illusion right along with you. Been programmed that time is real, and that this is reality, same as everyone else. The trick is becoming aware of this.