LCH

Welcome to the forum, Ninjasm :-) Taoism, like anything, it what you make of it. If you poke around here enough, you will see that no one really "practices" the same way, if one even admits to having a practice. I will speak from experience (since this is all I have), and say that I do not consider myself a "Taoist", though, I wouldn't take offense if someone else called me as such. You are right, they are just labels, but often that voice in our heads doesn't see it as such in the heat of the moment as often the reaction takes place before one even realizes what is going on. I am a former left-brain heavy person in that I have a degree in math. "Life" never made much sense to me until I started having regular "mystical experiences". Oddly, that was what my controlling mind needed to let up on trying to figure everything out. I began quite an external journey at that point immersing myself in everything from eastern philosophy to conspiracy theory. During this process, I exposed myself to Taoist teachings and found that it most closely described the paradox that is our tangible/non-tangible existence. Though, there are threads of "Truth" in all forms of mysticism as far as I see it. Taoism has served as a grounding mechanism for me, and I utilize some of the literature now to discipline my active mind and imagination. My journey became more "personal", pun intended, when I recognized the human mechanism, how it works, and how if one falls more into alignment with the "Tao", things are much more manageable and do actually make more sense. I have always recognized the power of words, but also the fact that they are just a collective "model" for what we perceive in this reality. Much like mathematics. The Tao Te Ching speaks of this in the first chapter. I have found that "Taoists" tend to be extremely respectful, welcoming and open-minded. Which bodes well for anyone who has opted to step out of their comfort zone of conditioned reality. If one's ego becomes open for re-programming, which may ultimately prove that it DOESN'T control everything, it is important to have a source of external confirmation such to limit the mind games that one might play on themselves; though, those are definitely a part of the experience. There are many knowledgeable people on this forum, who are happy to discuss most anything. The fact that you externally expressed that you are looking to move out of the "abyss" as you called it, says a lot about you from my perspective as a semi-anonymous, neutral observer. Taoism does encourage one to understand both the "dark" and the "light" of things to ultimately transcend "duality" in the re-integration of "self". In our heavily conditioned current-day reality, it takes a lot of courage to "stand naked in front of the world" as the Gnostics have said... I wish you the best on your journey. Lad

Hi Silas, "One world religion" sends my red flags up all over the place. Not because I am paranoid or anything, just aware of the power of belief. I do definitely feel that beyond the attachment people can form to money, the ultimate way to control or manipulate the masses is through their inherent fear of the unknown, or "death". I mentioned it earlier in this thread that the owning of thoughts and emotional energies is way more powerful than just making someone a monetary servant to a debt-based monetary system. In being on this forum actively for only about a month, I can see that there are many different variations of "Taoism" practiced, or non-practiced, depending on how you view the words in describing your perceptions. Part of this reason is because of the enigmatic nature of "The Tao". Generally, I have nothing against someone who believes in the "bardo", "heaven", "purgatory", the wheel of karma etc... But what of those, who don't necessarily feel that the whole process of life is to experience, "die", and be recycled into another experience. In a way, that is saying that someone is just never good enough to move on. Like the slaves that were freed in the civil war only to get jobs working for people who charged them more money to live on their land than they paid them, thus making them indentured servants. The "Deities" of religion feed off the emotional energy of those people who are praying to them, and asking for their help. It is a co-dependent situation, where one definitely needs the other. Those "keepers" of religion here in body are going to try their hardest to keep the heard as intact as possible, since this is a source of food, these people are getting directives from somewhere. I realize this is somewhat "out there", but I have had personal experiences with beings such as these, and I can also say that just because someone receives a third eye vision, doesn't mean it is for your "greatest good". Chakra manipulation is a very real thing in my world, and thus is part of the ownership and vigilance practiced and attained in one's awakening. Many may be aware of this, but I felt compelled to express from my experience.

How money is perceived and how it is created are two very opposing views. Many will worship the "God" of money as some sort of salvation or life-giver. In many ways it is since within a material existence it is required virtually everywhere as a form of exchange for those who either choose not to or are incapable of completely living off the land for "free". Of course, trying to find a piece of land to live on that isn't owned by someone who won't try to charge you something to live there may be a tall task. Many have a healthy relationship with money, but there are many more who have allowed their inherent nature to be consumed by money. Once it consumes someone's nature, then self-realization is seemingly a near-impossibility. One will possibly always view themselves through the filter of monetary worth. For those who have a healthy and un-attached relationship with money, there are other ways to perpetuate their servitude, I will get to that in a bit. Sure there are the baseline emotions of greed, lust, power, etc... that drive the desire for more money, but there are those who get caught up in the game of life and blindly walk into a scenario where they become a slave to money, mostly because they don't ever have "enough" to buy their freedom. Freedom from a debt-based system. (Cite the millions of recent and not-so recent college graduates who will be paying off student debt perhaps till they die.) We live in a debt-based system that will keep even a debt-free person concerned about their personal "worth". Pun Intended. Even if my house is paid off, I will still owe taxes, although that amount is more manageable than having a mortgage too. Most people born into such a system never realize just how "owned" they are. Why? Because the standardized education system does everything in its power to promote the opposite through what is taught and how it is taught. People's attachment to equating worth with a pile of paper with numbers on it is definitely a seemingly illogical scenario to someone who has broken the controlling ties of equating worth with an external idea such as money. On the other side of the coin, those that have the means to create the money are the self-appointed, though, I do not rule out that they have help "beyond humanity", overlords of this "game show" called life. This "money" is literally created out of thin air - now a days - digital thin air, and then protected by an extremely complicated means known as a monetary policy facilitated by a central bank. So the question becomes when you are a member of the "elite" who controls the entire process of "wealth" creation, what is it that will motivate you? What is there left to meaningfully "do"? For people who don't have "enough" money, it usually is perceived that the "elite" just can't seem to get enough, their ignorance fueled by seemingly endless greed. Sure it might appear that way, and i do not rule out that there are people like this, but as one delves deeper, they recognize that the "elite" are tied into EVERYTHING within society. "They" own the media, "they" own the governments, "they" own religion, "they" own the university system, "they" own the historians, "they" own the medical profession, "they" seemingly own it all... An autonomous individual may realize that it isn't just about money, money serves as a distraction for most of the "sheep" in their eyes, but not all. What about the people who have broken out of that system of control? The people who question that which has been spoon-fed to them from day one. Taoism talks about temporal conditioning, but those who supposedly wrote these passages thousands of years ago may not have been aware of the "amped-up" form of conditioning that humanity would allow itself to go through. A conditioning consciously facilitated and controlled by a "smaller" aspect of the species. At this point in the "evolution" of humanity, the level of control extends into the minds, thoughts, and beliefs of the masses. The emotional energy that humanity produces is far more powerful than a pile of "benjamins". Money is simply a manifested form of control. Those who are aware of the "illusion" of reality are not just practicing and well-to-do people that come to forums like these, they are the people who run the show too. Faustian bargains a plenty. If one truly understands their own power to create and alter "Creation", they recognize just how hard the overlords try to dumb people down. This is not anything different from what multiple versions of "history" will tell us. It has always been about control and manipulation. Be it through money, or through the control of thought through the manipulation of emotion. If anyone has ever encountered a "Demon" you have a very personal experience as to how your thoughts and emotions can be used against you. A microcosmic example of what humanity is subjecting itself to right now. The pursuit of "The Tao" is seemingly the panacea for an world that embodies very little of what the Taoism promotes... This is why I found and immerse myself in Taoism. And based on my personal experiences, I will forecast that there will come a "time" in our lifetimes where the debate about "non-doing" will become a very important factor of the lives of "aware" individuals. I am an aspect of Infinite Creation having a "finite" experience as a member of the gestalt known as "Humanity".

Just from my experience... For many, "respect" is a conditional endeavor. In the midst of an energetic interaction with someone, a conditioned mind will assume many of its habitual positions depending on what is being externally perceived. One of these assumptions can be the expectation or desire for "respect". This is a position that can only be satisfied from "another", which works out well if "other" satisfies the desires. Disjunction occurs when "some asshole" is disrespectful. There are varying degrees of respect, and varying capabilities of recognizing and receiving respect. Example from a recent encounter: Expressing to a devout believer in something that you do not agree with them, but still respect them, might not be received very well. In your heart and mind, you know and feel respect for them, because perhaps you see beyond their ego-facilitated facade, but they are too deluded (not meant in a harsh way) to recognize that. Respect can also be a re-assuring thing from an external perspective. I does mean a lot to me if someone expresses that they respect me. Having said that, I have struggled with the whole "respect" thing in my life from time to time, and not until I perceived beyond my emotional body could I truly understand the dynamic. The "dynamic" I speak of is simply the contrast between ones ego with that of the "Tao", "God", "boozie-woozie", use whatever word you wish... Of course, this is what "material reality" is to me, the combination and observation/experience between tangible and intangible...

...

This is a good point, dawei... what "techniques" would you say have helped you get beyond even a conditioned state of "nature"?

This will turn into a failed discussion based on the limitation of written language expressed through the sterile means of the internet. I respectfully bow out.

The pursuit of "Taoism" is inherently an "individual" experience. In my own life, much of my emotional conditioning has been facilitated by living in a world with many "rules" and expectations that are not in alignment with my own inherent and more simple nature. In order to break out of that mold, I have had to completely own my entire experience. Not blaming others for what has or hasn't happened, and clearing energetic attachments to cyclical aspects of my life that I wish to break free from. More simply, I have moved to understand my emotional body implicitly. I am not advocating a submission of all emotions, more so just an understanding of the mechanistic process of emotion creation. Without breaking out of the mold of a "group-think" mentality, how could I understand my-self to the depth required to integrate beyond the illusory idea of "Separation"? Thank you for asking.

Good questions Silas... I would say that I agree with the other posters in that I have no true "belief system". This is why I gravitate to Taoism in that it is founded upon "nothingness", though there are certainly dogmas available as an expression of egoic perception. Personally, I have immersed myself in plenty of belief systems, simply for the sake of getting a taste. Many are based in the logic of dualism in that they are "right" and other's simply are not. This is a hive-mind mentality that I simply cannot prescribe by. Part of becoming truly "autonomous" and by this, I mean wholly owning of one's own thoughts, emotions ( more simply, Qi), is stepping away from what the collective believes and forging your own perceptions (from an ego perspective). This is what is meant to me by stripping away the conditioning of the temporal. It isn't about saying to myself "I am 'right' and everyone else is 'wrong'", more so the idea of "right" and "wrong" become components of a "greater" truth, one from where both "right" and "wrong" manifest. The wish to know what is right and wrong in many ways comes from a mental desire to quell fear of the "unknown". I will say that it has certainly helped me to share experiences with others who have had similar experiences. It helps initially when one starts wondering if they are "loosing it"! haha! Ultimately, the mind stops craving "truth" all the time, and simply allows things to just be. It isn't a constant release, as there will be bouts with the ego and its instance to maintain its "death grip" on reality (pun intended). Just a few of my experiences. I am curious to hear of your epiphany, if you wish to share or can link me to where you have in the past. Thanks.

What is in a symbol? Much of it is learned archetypal expression. Concepts "thought up" in lesser dense realities and thus manifested into "solidity" in this "density". Many symbols carry a subconscious as well as conscious energetic charge. I am an anarchist, and often wear shirts with large "circle As" on them. My allowance of the self-label of "anarchist" is simply because I know at the core of my being that government of others is unnecessary, and TRUE salvation is found through a completely and consciously voluntary existence. Initially, I wore the shirts as a statement to the outer world such to get people's attention, since society has made anarchists out to be molitov cocktail wielding hooligans in masks. Then I realized most people don't know that symbol, haha! I got "That's a cool t-shirt, does it represent Chris Angel?" In terms of Taoist practice, I would consider any tatoo or more generally any "external" expression a creation of potential to experience "self". Stoking "the furnace" to put it another way. Full disclosure, I have no tattoos :-)

I will make an effort not to hijack this thread, as deci has done a lovely job expressing, but I feel I can add something to the discussion of "non-doing"... In my experience, it is imperative to gauge the requirements of one as an "individual" to literally "un-do" or unlearn the conditioning. By this, I simply mean to take whatever measures necessary to allow one to objectively asses their capabilities and capacities (though a non-invasive 'teacher' can certainly help), such to start breaking down the learned "complexity" of ones own psyche. Some decide to fast in pitch blackness for a week as a means of "breaking down" their minds control over the temporal perception. Others just have to remember their inherent and infinite "simplicity", which may not consciously involve any energy work, mantras, meditation etc... The mind-imposed shackles are different for everyone. Once you get your own mind and ego on the "side" of "spirit" it becomes like a robot you have programmed to take itself apart. Although, it can still just as easily rebuild itself as well as dissect. "Conditioning" is not something to be looked upon as some sort of sickness ultimately, as viewing as such still carries an conditioned (yes the same conditioning) emotional charge, which keeps the ever-elusive assimilation into infinite "oneness" at arms length. Not to mention "infinity" is the one concept that a temporal consciousness cannot "contain" with a finite definition. Paradox. (pair of ducks?!) Accompanying this dynamic often is the separation between the "celestial energies" and the "earthly". For those who follow the ancient texts, immersion into oneness occurs when the "polarities" of the celestial and the earthly flip, thus trapping that combination of energy "inside". Call it "the elixir", "the spiritual embryo", or just "getting it". Use whatever words you want as they are crutches for a crippled mind who has yet to realize it doesn't need them to walk freely. Extrapolating beyond the "embryo"... All "things", "conscious" and "non-conscious" are simply the mixing of the tangible and the intangible, and thus is "life". The Tao serves as an inner network connection ALL "things" and "non-things". In my experience, if I seek a "practice" as a means to an end, I will never get "there". What is the rush to get anywhere anyway? I need only to remember... Much love, and thank you for the opportunity to express. Lad

A very interesting discussion... The general question I ask myself is what is the ultimate desire? Lately, I have recognized the importance of remembering my motivations for spiritual practice. There is an inherent undercurrent of "going somewhere" with the practice. I am definitely not saying personal practice is pointless. I am saying that as the "practice" progresses, perhaps the "idea" of "going somewhere" is forgotten along the way. Destination requires a beginning and an end, and self-actualization is seemingly not just that. Based on personal experience, when I have sought experiences on particular "levels", I aligned myself with a more heavily "mental" thought pattern, and thus created a finite desire out of infinite possibilities. Eventually, I had enough finite experiences such that I sought to simply experience the infinite aspect of things. Thus, is the process of "unlearning"... The times I have achieved this have been when I wasn't thinking about it, since "infinity" is a concept that the mind simply cannot grasp. In consciously embracing the paradox, the tangible and intangible are both perceivable. One becomes both the wave and the particle. LIVING with that perception is the challenge presented upon birth. :-)

I have never been one to be in a relationship for very long, even long before I consciously pursued "Taoism". Someone mentioned that relationships are difficult because other people often represent and express aspects of ourselves that we rather not face. I can attest to this, and have realized until I can fully love myself, I cannot fully love "another". I will also say that I am the product of a marriage that has been void of genuine love for as long as I can remember. This realization has been a tough one to deal with since I cannot make my parents love one another no mater how hard the innocent 6 year old in me fights to make it happen through layers of hurt and frustration. I do also recognize that I pull my self-worth, or lack thereof, by default from my progenitors. This, to me is part of the "conditioning" that I have striven to understand. I have wrestled with the idea of breaking this energetic bond with my parents at the risk of severing other emotional ties. Obviously, it does not have to be "all or nothing", but no one ever said personal work was easy. More generally... I have observed that much of the society's idea of "relationships" is driven by an inherent "lack" in both people, this will manifest in the idea of finding someone with qualities you do not have. At the basic level, one could even say anatomically. :-) Thus, a co-dependency will begin. I do not say this as a "bad" thing, but for someone who is pursuing the "yin/yang" balance internally, it can be difficult to be with someone who inherently feels they are not "whole" unless they can find it in "another". If society promoted the mantra "know thyself" from an early age, I would wager that the collective views of the whole would be rather different than the externally driven views promoted today. I will admit my "Taoist" and "spiritual" pursuits were driven by the emotional hurt I have experienced in my life. I, like humanity as a whole, have guilt and inferiority complexes that I have recognized in myself and have determined to nurture back to "center". I do not perceive these as "faults", more so energetic imbalances worthy of attention. Concepts of monogamy and life-long vows are viable, but knowing how much I have altered my own perception, I cannot expect another to commit themselves to me in that way. I do not desire to "own" the love of anyone else, but merely to cultivate a love with another based on the ever-present understanding that the engagement is 100% voluntary and there is never anything keeping someone in the relationship. The gift of a completely 100% voluntary relationship, or as clostto it as possible, is a tremendous form of graciousness and gratitude. Having said all that :-).... To me, the idea of a "successful" relationship is completely relative and does not necessarily mean it will result in children, years of shared "love", joint tax returns, or anything else in our modern world that symbolizes that an encounter with someone actually "means something". In fact, to the contrary, I often seek the innocent excitement that I felt the first time I began to feel genuine amorous "love" for another. A time were my mind had yet to have been "corrupted" by adulthood. An "adulthood" where innocence is looked upon as foolishness and weakness by society. What I feel is changing societally now is the idea of what a relationship really represents. Much like everything else, it is never black or white. Thank you for posing the question, Taoistik. I apologize if my form of expression is a bit choppy, it can be difficult to convert the interwoven complexity of these energies into coherent and linearly perceived prose. Lad

Deci, Perhaps you can share some of your experiences with this process you describe?

As someone who does not post very often, I did feel compelled to chime in on this discussion. I can certainly empathise with what is being shared by all participants in this discussion. In my experience, I have recognized that in order to get my "ego" on my side, I have to give it the attention it requires and deserves. After all, it is only doing its "job" for me. Looking upon it like some sort of virally infected operating system only equates to self-fracturing, and without said operating system, putting these "pieces" of "self" back together can prove to be a very difficult process. The Tao is "in" me, and I am "in" it. In fact, I feel without a strong "ego" one cannot dare take the first step to true introspection. When someone pulls back the sheet of the mess they may have made of themselves, it certainly helps to have an empowering aspect to help cope with the scene. Talking about "enlightenment" is a sure-fire way to creating a limiting aspect of one's experience. It has never been a destination to me. I often marvel at those people who seem to do everything with emotional balance and simplicity. People who wouldn't know what "Tao" was if the TTC smacked them right in the face. I recognize that my attraction to Taoism is simply because I have a healthy set of neuroses that I am looking to get under control. I have had "Experiences" that far surpassed the "supposed tos" in life, and thus, I set to differentiating between them. But perhaps, the "supposed tos" are simply the result of self-judgement, which, if not done with care and compassion for self can drive one deeper and further into the pits of "despair". Sitting in meditation and engaging the "secrets" of the Universe can offer a doorway to infinity or will light the way on the path to escapism and separation. All viable and, dare I say, "healthy" facets of the journey. Humanity is now going through the very same process that many are going through individually. This simple microcosm/macrocosm relationship is easily observed to one's mind, but actually DOING something about it is the only ticket (that I have found) to the "salvation" that many yearn for. Carl Jung introduced an amazing body of work into this reality in dealing with the "shadow-self". True intrgration of both the "yin and yang" is seemingly the only way to transcend this reality such to become completely "autonomous" and "functional". Once my mind got a tast of autonomy, it couldn't go back. Like Neo in the Matrix or Dom in Inception. Tasting true "freedom" consciously is a sure fire way to issue yourself a ticket into the depths of The Shadowlands at some point in the future. This "freedom" represents to our minds everything that seeimingly the "temporal" reality is not. It is in these experiences through the personal "void" where one can find that inner spark to light the way to transcendence, or where one can continually and aimlessly wander in the shadows, clinging to the ever fading memory of some sort of "divine" presence. I have experienced this "place" many times in my life, and I am extremely grateful for every experience I have had. Ultimately, like deci belle, said (paraphrase) being truly selfless is the ticket. Getting "there" can be done in an infinite # or ways, and when some actually does get "there", who other than yourself will be there to let you know you have arrived? Much love to all. Lad

Having had a recent bout with runaway thoughtforms, I can relate to what audiohealing has brought up with this thread. In many ways, I can best describe what I "battled" with as the mind virus that is present in our chronologically based perception of ourselves and "others". Without having had the experiences of connecting with something that I can only describe as the "divine spark" within' I would not have the reference point to compare what is "real" and what is a product of a more "synthetic" ego. I say this with full respect and appreciation for my ego, but it most certainly can be used against me. In coming to this realization through experience, I have had to make a choice, I can be resentful of such a dynamic which at times pulls me into the depth of "the shadowland" or I can realize what a great teacher it has been to me by offering the opportunity to fully experience the transcendant emotion of gratitude for having had the opportunity to once again connect with the infinite aspect, present in myself and all "things". Call it "Tao" if you want. Gnostics refer to these mind viruses as "Archons", the native americans "Wetiko", Carl Jung discussed this extensively in the sense of humanity's struggle with discerning the difference between true "Self" and the collective archetypal programs that are constantly produced, manifested, and fed through varying forms of ego-based and unbalanced emotional patterns. The awareness of the dynamic is the launching pad for the alchemical journey. I have realized that the journey within' is not an easy one, and the door leading down this path, once opened, cannot be closed. "Logic" has little use on this journey, and will often be used agianst someone who tends to rely on it too much. There is a reason the understanding of the "mind" is implicit in realizing "The Tao". Belief is a limiting aspect, unless it is the belief in all posibilities. At any rate, best wishes to all. Lad

All answers have been different on this thread, thus the illustration of what happens when an individual gives a subjective explanation of an objective and enigmatic concept like "Taoism"... "Taoism", to me at least, is inherently paradoxical, and thus canot be fully comprehended with a linearly based thinking mind. One can whiddle away at it, but they may find that it is an onion that is infinitely large. Yes, there are methods of "practice" for Taoism, but perhaps those are just a means of satisfying the "mind" while slowly getting it out of the way? "Immortality" is another "linear-time" based concept, and "time" can certainly be perceived in many, many ways. Which makes me think of "past" lives... Perhaps "parallel" lives? Perhaps one's "soul" is just a spark from "infinite" consciousness. The aspect of "shen" that is simply living out an emotional experience? The mind is eager to "learn" new things and apply them, but what is the rush? Perhaps none of it exists, and we are simply a manefestation of the collective of humanity up until this "point" in time? Like a pebble that started rolling down a snow-covered mountain, that is now a humungous snowball that is ever-growing. There are few answers, and many questions. In my own personal experience, I have witnessed the tangible "benefits" that Taoism offers to me. I rarely "meditate" in the traditional sense. In general, I try to immerse myself in the energy of a taoist "expression" and then compare to myself and see where the "conflict" points might be. To me, Taoism encourages one to TRULY know themselves. To understand their emotions, and in a way give tremendous personal insight into "reality creation". I do not mean this in the "New Agey", Intention a new car and get it, kind of way. More in a transcendental way. Through the process of understanding "self", one can more easily understand his/her surroundings. Life takes on a more "complex" perspective, yet, it seems to slow down and true "clarity" it experienced. Once the mind gets a taste of that "drug", it will magically actually work FOR someone, instead of creating "road blocks" to overcome. To me, life is a continuing series of emotional experiences. Our world is colored by our perceptions and the filters we wear. It is conceivable that one can remove these "filters" and witness the "world" for what it really is. Though, I propose that it isn't the "world" that changes, but one's ability to consciously perceive it. Extrapolating this idea, the "Tao" has always been there, one only neds to realize it. Lad

If you are doing QiGong and opening up your energy channels, this might be a reason you are having trouble sleeping. I remember with my initial practice, I have to ground consistently in order to actually be able to sleep through the night. You may have another issue with insomnia, but ramping up Qi excercises can certainly add to the situation. I can also attest to more energy sensative people getting uncomfortable around me when I was first starting this process. A hand ful of people would itch extensively when they sat near me (within a foor or two). Just sharing my experience, thank you for sharing yours.

Hello to all... I have a great interest in many of the "unseen" aspects of our existence. I'm not seeking to become a magician or anything, just looking for others on the "road less traveled". It is not easy to find people who recognize the importance of "inner" work, and as much as I would like to find those people in person, the internet will have to suffice. Who knows, maybe some live near me! (Ohio). I have been observing our world for a good portion of my life, and have found I never really feel/felt at "home" within much of our societal constructs. This realization is probably what led me to Taoism, which has encouraged me to try to make every situation "home". Having said that, I love to laugh and make people laugh. I would say I tend to lean towards the "positive" side of neutral. I am an anarchist and I love engaging people in conversation about much of the "weirdness" in our world. I look forward to getting to know many of you. Lad

Pittsburgh, eh? I grew up there. :-) Thank you for the greeting.