tianhui

What are you working for? Why do you do neikung? Why do you do meditation practice?

Well, thank you for your thoughtful consideration. I have no idea where you stand in you interests and practices, but please allow me to say that this "field of gold" has many types of persons with a great range of ideas and motivations. If we can keep close to the bones by always coming back to asking what is it that we are really after, what is it that we really want, then we can better get though the various infomercial thickets that surely lie ahead. Respecting the efforts of all those from the many traditions before us, looking objectively as possible at the common denominators, using your own light, seek out what is actually true.

With your "No buts about it" An ji push, there is little room for discussion. My little one ounce of resistance is quite overcome and I will let this discussion pass with the maker of myths carrying the day.

But I am feeling a slight pressure from your peng, perhaps you would like to extend even further.

Ohh Myth Maker, don't you play push hands? The going back and forth is relaxed and each finds enjoyment in seeing a nice move executed by the other. Working with each other by working against each other, both find their way to a "better place". Shoot, Tian Hui, I think maybe you just did a cool neutralization.

Well, I would agree with the implied proposition that absent suffering there is pleasure. That is because the nature of our being/essence/hsing probably is with the positive content of consciousness and bliss. So if no extraneous suffering is being introduced we should be happy campers. But, are you willing to go further with this line of thinking. If pleasure is agreeable to you, why settle for a little if there is a lot available right under your feet? If the conscious experience of pleasure is good then wouldn't super conscious experience of bliss be preferred. Well, maybe we are already together on this point, but if not, I encourage going for the "gold". The world has evolved many techniques for going for the gold. What they seem to have in common is cultivation of the abeyance of thought with retention of awareness. This would be because thought (like suffering thoughts) clouds the transparency of awareness (our actual inner nature) and such clouding temporaraly separates us from comprehending/remembering the true extent of this root nature. Nei Kung is one of the techniques created by the Chinese to bring thinking to emptiness so that we can "see" into our Tao nature. To settle for lesser goals is to overlook the value of the jewel you are holding in your hand.

Looking about the world of motile creatures, it seems that without exception they are motivated to avoid what is harmful to their continued homeostasis and seek what is helpful. Higher organisms get equipped to sense this environmental pressure as pain and pleasure. So surely, your central point must have some validity. But, the repetition of the pleasure stimulus tends to diminish the pleasure as the creature adjusts to the new normal. If pleasure seeking is the central point of your Nei Kung, I am thinking your ardor may flag prior to it's natural culmination. The Indian traditions reveal the ground of being as having the three qualities of existence, consciousness, and bliss. You identified the third as an attractant. Maybe the first two are also attractants. Like, wouldn't you rather have more consciousness rather than less?

All right! Feels like a very fine point held at my throat. To deny would be to diminish my position, to accept would be to lose the day. Trapped, I do appreciate the experience.

Hi seeker. Why not just give us the benefit of why you practice? What need to add that ouchy part. Adding horns to the hare, why imagine pain on top of the situation. Or does your tantien actually feel uncomfortable, maybe from too much attention? Be nice now, I'm just saying "Hi", Tian Hui style.

Hi Mr. Gauss. Your so stated objective appears magnetic enough. I especially go for the "assimilate myself to the cosmic" part. But I can't get a clear grasp on why a measure of truthfulness would determine whether I would or would not stay alive as long as the universe stays alive. I mean what is the physics that would explain a process like getting "eternal life" as output from truthfullness as input. No disrespect at all intended, but it just doesnt ring as true in my "ear". Ditto for Compassion Ditto for Tolerance Are these really your own thoughts that you are presenting here?

Ahh, empty lobby, empty minds, medicine for the affliction.

"To half quote Sinfest - get out of the lobby and move into your tan tien" Everything seems to have it's time and place.

"Games games games all from the head" True enough.

Haha, yes sinfest it is getting a little slipper round here. A lot of trying to cut two into one when iff we just totally leave two to be as it is, one is at hand. Thanks for reminding me that effortlessness has it's wondrousness.

Hi there in Paradise. On your second point, I have no quarrel with the vast collection of devices established, by the Indian traditions and their Buddhist aftermath, for penetration of the egoic veil. But in my sorry view, they are primarily preparatory in character and are most useful for those who are attracted to them. Of course many authentic teachers encourage all to follow a kind and restrained lifestyle. On your first point, the "no", we can have a much longer discussion I am sure. I dont think it was about one monk, it was rather the point of schism between the Northern and Southern schools of Chan: whether gradual or sudden, whether to sit and wipe or to fully and dynamically act out of self nature with a completly unified dhyana and prajna (no wiping required). The sixth patriarch, from who all surviving Zen schools decended, did not engage nor encourage sitting practice. Also, I would take lengthly advantage of the the lifetime of expression by Rammana MahaRishi who firmly established that "be as you are" is true, not false, and that such insight proper probed is the most direct path to the goal. The I of the I, the wiper himself is already complete just as he is: wanting to strive and persevere, paradise already attained. Hey, the Y is helping keep a lot of peeps out of demential and early onset. Whats to knock about bodily health. Makes peeps more more prone to be nice (and compasionate).

Reality being all inclusive, who could actually stand outside it to say "failure"? So, no, I honestly cant go to a state of failure. I would describe myself as more like perennial rather than driven. So I am always coming back to these issues but I think you can see that I dont carry them about in a soaking heavy fashion. Yes, entirely so. And, you may then add then, what is my attraction to all this discussion? Like the rest of the natural world I move with the gradients.

The first three sentences presented my simply why. Guess would be better to start a new para after that: 'Of course. Coming from not living to being "born" to growing up in America and having the experiences that have come to me, I like many others have great doubts that we are fully aware of what is really going on here. So, I find myself seduced into making various attempts to discover whats real.' So I practice as many do, to find the real, the truth of this existance of which we seeming partake. But, I am not on real friendly terms with this idea of practicing least I fall into the tragedy of the "dust wipers". These unfortunates wear themselves out with the expectation that they will be come something better. Whereas the trick or the needed "turn" is towards a clearer perception of their own fundamental nature (as in seeing what they were before their parents were born). So Tao practices are more like working on a backup plan that I know should not be needed, but what the hell, I got the time and energy to play with it. I have encountered those who take NeiKung to be primarily about the cultivation of internal energy, and there is certainly plenty of that in Taoist tradition. But, I am confident that time in harness eventually brings them to asking, well, why cultivate so much energy and for what is it's ultimate use. Inner Alchemy is a tradition directed towards staged cultivation of life(supported by jing, chi and shen) towards essential nature (shen and beyond). Since is a "cultivation" type activity, I think one should be wary of the "dust wiping" problem and not lose sight of why one is doing whatever routine one is doing. Ultimately not having a body or a mind, what need is there to regulate,tame or pacify any part of it? This is the critical role that "realizing" has played in both Indian and Chinese wisdom traditions for the past few millenia]. And not having body or mind, where exactly could there be any problem requiring practices to remedy? Dust wipers and yang chi generators would be smart to add such ponderings to their practices, so my mind/ego thinks (harmlessly so, harmlessly so).

Of course. Coming from not living to being "born" to growing up in America and having the experiences that have come to me, I like many others have great doubts that we are fully aware of what is really going on here. So, I find myself seduced into making various attempts to discover whats real. I like to ask mediators of the many ilk why they practice because I may learn something from them as well as I may help them focus on what is essential and what may be dispensable. There is a lot of stuff going around and we humans quickly run out of time. I dont much love this word "practice" because I am afraid it has the potential to mask more essential concerns, but, ok, we all know what the word means. So I practice regulating and strengthing the body via swimming, jogging, Pilates, Tai Chi, Chuan/fan/and sword, hatha yoga, hula hoop and sitting meditation. I also practice regulating my mind by reading, listening attentively to college lectures on cell biology and physiology, silencing the mind during Tai Chi, and by tuning awareness during sitting first 1)aware of externals and the body 2)aware of feelings/sensations in the body 3) aware of exactly what the mind is up to at the moment when it is supposed to me helping me with doing my chi work. 1)2)3) one slow full breath each and then repeat. I practice regulating my chi by focusing the awareness on chakra and dantien sensations down the front until the lowest center gets a good dose of attention and then commence circulation thru the torso. Later I practice circulation thru the torso and the limbs. Later I use reverse breathing to collect activated chi into the bone marrow to stimulate stem cell production and hopefully greater health and longevity. Finally I work to draw jing/chi steam up the central channel to the Niwan and totally empty my mind of all shreds of thoughts about practice and leave the world undisturbed. Shen is thereby also regulated as is the fourth step in the classical Tao method of Internal Alchemy. Sounds like a lot of brag but it's not so much. The physical stuff gets spread throughout the week while the sitting stuff gets done nearly everyday. Yes, I do see that these activities build internal energy and health and even longevity, but, I like to not let myself forget why I do all these banana things.

Hi Gap Bum from Mizen Head, nice to get your "huh". I had to wiki to see where that actually is. Do you actually live there, you must be hard core about the simple things in life. Well, I'm guessing your "huh" is a faint because I can see from your subtext that you ride a Suzuki and so I am guessing you are probably pretty good at riding off road.

I recall Sat, Chit, Ananda as being quite central to the Indian view of things. Ananda and happines are close enough to not have to add the idea of shallow. Nothing shallow about bliss. Your mYTHmAKER got me thinking (well, why dump on a little innocent non existant thinking) about how right that is, we do seem to be creating myths about our supposed selves as we go along. (Man, that is a lot shiftkeying with the pinky to create the mYTHmAKER myth but hell, look what Odysseus went thru creating his myth. I enjoyed your input, brought my a modicum if happiness.

Hi Trunk of 3,400 posts. I tell you I can comprehend your "Big Light" and the "Wonderfulness" and the more abstract "True Ground", but what I cant really digest is that someone called Trunk has found the death pulsar power to actually post here in excess of 3,400 times. No disrespect now, just my way to tip my hat. Yes sir that is not nothing, that's a something. So what is left of your reply? "consciously with True Ground",well, must be better than the obverse, yes indeed, thank you for helping me remember that the point of jing and chi powered shen must be to consciously recomply with that True Ground. But, great loss, I am afraid our recent friendship is about to end because you have entered an old battle between the gradual "dust wipers" of Shen Hsiu's line and the sudden enlightenment school which later became all tha modern Chan and Zen descendants (i,e., the winners). When you speak of "harmoniously gradually integrating", etc., you have invited me towards your vulnerable center. Please pardon my ego, but this is an issue of the eons. If we are not already there, how could wiping and wiping, practicing and praceticing, chiing and circulating, contracting a bellows and shooting past a jia ji alter the fundamentals of existance? Didnt Ramanaa tell us "be as you are"? (as in: "already are") Otherwise, I do appreciate your kind attention to my newcomer presence and hope you and I both were never born. Tian Hui (and aint going nowhere)

Ha ha, I thought you just wouldnt respond to my nothing.