Stosh

1 hour ago, Gunther said:

Non abiding (no attachment) awareness is sitting meditation (Zazen)

How is the suffering of physical pain gonna help?

This would be the way of the fakir who is torturing himself on a bed of nails to gain will power. He might succeed, but that will not lead to wisdom/compassion at all

The false premise would be that your post had a direction, an intent , that it was indicating was appropriate to the situation. 

It the frogs/people  just sit and stare, without intent , to become enlightened, that may be suggested as being probably ineffectual , or,  it may be the proposed , effectual,  procedure. 

Just pick one , because suggesting that ones behavior in meditation is expected to be , ineffectual or, effectual , depending on whether one has intent to succeed or not , sets up the scenario that they either should or should not be sitting like frogs appear to be. 

We do not know if the frog has compassion in the Buddhist sense of the word, because it does not suggest-demand any physical demonstration, as it would, in Christian circles, where one is not really considered compassionate, if their mental summary concludes that one should just let the suffering continue ,with no attempt or desire, to mediate it. 

( Let em eat cake. for example , would be a non-compassionate sentiment. )

Non-abidance. From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. In Buddhism, especially the Chan (Zen) traditions, non-abidance , is the practice of avoiding mental constructs during daily life. That is, other than while engaged in meditation (Zazen).

I think one will be still using mental constructs all day long , gravity is a mental construct , as is the persistence of objects , as is family relationships , and color and a million other things,. it is precisely this fact , which makes sitting Zazen a thing to do at all . 

Its 'an elephant in the room' , you sit so you can abide more. , and we cannot tell whether the frog abides or not. If the fakir overcomes his reaction to pain , he may be abiding more , in order to do so. But I agree , his evasion of pain , may, or may not , assist finding compassion or wisdom ,,

depending the definitions you use for those. 

3 hours ago, Gunther said:

There is no reality in doctrines (sudden or gradual) unless they are applied.

It should be clear that you can practice non abiding awareness 24/7 standing, sitting,walking, running, swimming, lying down, reclining, whatever. Nobody say you should not sit in front of the wall if you so wish

Then Any quote of doctrine , has a false premise behind it , if unaccompanied by the real life application? 

3 hours ago, C T said:

Why, did you think dying is extra-mundane? I reckon that it's the 2nd most mundane occurrence after birth. Could anything in between, therefore, be considered outside the mundane? 

Yes its a common occurrence , but , You don't think you die daily, , do you  ? I'm thinking that having breakfast is mundane , and even skydiving might be a mundane thing , in that its not expressly a 'Buddhist spiritual pursuit'. 

One might , pursue 'an uplifted attitude' all day long , but, that's not sitting Zazen .  Enduring aching knees , defying monkey mind etc.

Having a cookie is easy , sitting  is difficult . 

Do any of you remember , one passage , then read a second, and then make even the slightest effort to reconcile the two? 

Staring at a wall trying meditate for years , so you can stay dead when you die, is not a mundane activity.

It exactly IS living a life outside the mundane. 

Oh Nooooooo,   Not the 'Pink Screen of SQL error !' 

Well?

I wanted to humorously put you on the spot and segue an explanation of what you consider is going on. 

Either one is pursuing goal with intent, or one is not,, or one is doing a crappy job of both.

I figure the frogs are likely possessed of buddha nature ,,but thats probably not a common view. 

If they just dont do our ego thing, if they are untroubled with acceptance, and we have no idea whether they are in touch with the great mystery...then I doubt one could ever really conclude as fact , that they are not hatched enlightened, whereas we have sacrificed it, and they might indeed, be properly described ,as being well lit.

Im losing track, are the frogs grinding axes or are they buddhas?

Math  usually has to follow insight, it can be used to extend a principle out to the limits of its purview, but beyond that ... guesses must take point. devils go where angels fear to tread.

7 hours ago, 9th said:

There is a so-called "classic paradox" that has been formulated thusly:  "What happens when an unstoppable force meets an immovable object?" 

 

While the debate of "cliche" vs. "classic" is a whole story unto itself, for a second lets get back to the basic issue at hand because I always found it fascinating to hear people's various responses to this kind of idea.  What do some of you all think about such a virtual proposition?  Do you even have any personal opinions about such things in the first place?  Anything you may wish to share is quite welcome indeed, of course - but actual theoretical responses to the actual theoretical formulation is probably the most entertaining aspect of this whole line of questioning, I would say.

 

 

I agree with Gunther on this , the way we express events with words , makes presumptions which may not model what happens in reality well. 

In trying to be very exact about what is being said,paradox may be exposed as being centered on a false premise,

which  we are supposed to entertain, for the purpose of playing the game. like in  responding ..What force can be said to be unstoppable ?, What object cannot be said to be movable? There may be be true paradox , dunno ,  , but you will have to find it, since this popular type ... is the popular one. 

On 11/4/2017 at 1:17 PM, Mig said:

I would say both but here is my problem in learning the DDJ, English translations not necessarily render the original meaning especially when it comes to cultural differences and the way has been interpreted for centuries. The commentaries are helpful and the major interpretations help to clear the meaning of some sentences. The paraphrase is most difficult to understand as I never know the real meaning without knowing the cultural differences.

I see, It is my own sentiment, that recognizing the cultural differences helpful for those for whom the tiny details are important , you could say they are persons having, already , a working understanding of the general sentiments , and wish to delve deeper.  Then there are those for whom the cultural differences are really not important , because the principles are supposed to apply to any person , rich , poor , anglo , eastern , modern or traditional etc. 

Again ,it's my own sentiment , That the sections called chapters , hover around a particular lesson or example , which should be addressed as a whole , because, if one merely looks at parts of the sections , one is easily misled into thinking ,often-times,,, that the exact reverse of the point being made,,, is what is being asserted. Passing over details helps one concentrate on the whole , main point of a chapter.

The job of the reader is to , break with some cultural hurdles , to look at the whole , apply their own experience to the understanding they gain. This is tough to do. 

But it also indicates that there is a culturally held in common standard mindset , between us moderns and them ancients.

We tend to see the same things as strengths as the average farmer would , back in 350 BC. A  dude ..Tall strong fast smart committed aggressive maker of things happening, etc,  would be the Hero of most tales.  However , this mindset puts us on rails to be our own worst enemy , and the alternatives , are what they are suggesting also has validity. 

 Lao Zz and others are challenging the status quo of that Yang-Hero-prince- paradigm , (or at least were questioning what 'made men tick', or what made for sound human society) . 

Understanding the old Chinese version of him ( the hero)  , is similar to challenging our own Yang-hero - prince paradigm. ... and therefore the cultural differences which are indeed present , are relatively minor factors ,, IMO 

There are the physical laws , and there is a second tier framework of invisible relationships which make up the world , they were investigating or describing this. Like a handbook for .. Everything.

I liked harmonious emptiness translations which were quite poetic in the destination language English,

Flowing hands also does a nice job , getting to the destination of English sentences that have sensible meaning. 

But I don't think one version of translation really can cover all the nuances , its marvelous writing. 

PS.. if you find the perfect translation we all would like, Lemme know. 

14 hours ago, Gunther said:

You mean less salt more pee?

That seems to be true, salt binds a lot of water in the body. But, same here, what do I know?😀

I read that If you are dehydrated you will tend to need to pee more often in lesser amts , because whatever is in there is more irritating. Whereas if You are not , and if you were just getting rid of excess water , one would collect longer and release a more dilute solution.  Carbs and fiber also tend to bring in- hold  a lot of water which is why a meal of pasta or bread can pack more pounds on as a a scale reveals than the meal itself weighed. 

When folks privately say to themselves " Man! I must have the worlds smallest bladder " they need to consume more unadulterated water for a few days. 

It probably makes you have to pee more ,annoying your bladder , sleeping lightly, you remember your dreams more . 

Just a guess ,, dunno , I mean , how would I know? 

I went to top search box, clicked member search , don't see him listed there anymore, but don't know if it covers- changed names folks. 

( weird seeing that record label for polydor again ) 

The straw dog thing relates to a ritual, and the point is to remember the dichotomy between the material symbol and the spiritual content , are also simultaneously presented. 

Honor the man for his position , though he may be a jerk , honor the soul of the man though he may be impoverished , ,, any permutation works. 

2 minutes ago, joeblast said:

 

as an aside, I dont know how anyone ever got that hillary would have knowingly allowed weiner to nab all those emails.  no - weiner did that because he knew he was playing a dangerous game and didnt want to roll an Arkancide on one of his next few turns in the game.

Because one throws away the murder weapon with diligence , unless they're a noob.

  You think he wanted the emails himself ? I am under the impression that Hillary shared the emails with Huma to circumvent a security protocol, and that she sent them to Anthony , so they could be printed for return to Hillary.  Therefore Hillary knew that these emails were out of her purview , at the very least . And so if she wanted them gone she at least would know where to purge them from as Secretary of state , I think she couldve gotten to them even if Weiner wanted to have them to protect himself ... somehow. (though it would look more incriminating than a nice bargaining chip )

Just now, ralis said:

 

Hitler and his followers used the big lie very effectively, as well as, Trump understands how to use the big lie. Given the foolish whims of unevolved humans, history repeats itself often, right in front for all to see and most ignore at their peril. History is replete with the horror of human foibles.

Fine, but you think the Big Lie is , what ? exactly. ( and if pressed , I would have to disagree with Adolf and say,small lies can be used to big effect as well ,  if one is sneaky )

On 6/11/2017 at 8:47 PM, Mig said:

As I read more and more on DDJ translations I keep reading commentaries by Chinese and then interpretation and paraphrase of the original text. Can someone explain the differences with examples if possible?

Are you asking if there is a generalized assumption or standard by which each of the translators are rendering from originals ?

Or are you saying, that Simply comparing whole chapters as translated ,without explanations for the choices made in each interpretation, somehow isn't satisfying,

since they often seem so different.  

On 10/29/2017 at 9:06 AM, Marblehead said:

Now this one, I will suggest, is totally anti-Confucian.

 

In what way? Your idea on that. 

There's perhaps a typo 

Scurrying downwind, Yao stood and questioned him, saying, "Long ago, when Yao was governing all under heaven, he 

shouldn't it say Yu? 

36 minutes ago, Lost in Translation said:

It was not aimed at anyone in particular. This thread has been off the rails a while now. I figured I would join in, but did not have anything in particular to say.

Rails? What rails ? Once someone says No , and another says Yes ,  all the bases are covered. What more would there be to hear but discuss the limitations. Like  If one considers people to be mostly crappy , and so the only option is to wander out into a jungle , or try to be disengaged with them whilst in their midst , or whether knowledge about self doesn't fix any of that. 

But what is it you would like to have read, if this is too far afield, testimonials poems , sanskrit terminology nobody can unravel? 

21 minutes ago, Lost in Translation said:

< ... insert useless comment here ... >

If that's aimed at me, I actually might have asked a question which I actually want to know the answer to , useless or not, ,, for a change.

If you want, you can hop in and answer this too. 

Yes its normative for folks to behave crappily , but who are the exceptions ? How do you know who they are ? and where are they ? 

I recognize there are tougher folks , Like you and Ct , but do such tough folks really want to be distanced from everyone ?

You might ,,, both of you seem to like jungle, but you still go about forms of interacting ,, does it mean you're forced to settle on normals or pinkies ? 

2 hours ago, C T said:

 

Im not sure...I dont think just believing in the tenability of it is sufficient to make people nicer. 

What makes people nicer? IMo putting in the effort to cultivate the methods. Training the mind on the Paramitas. That makes people nicer. 

 

Yes, it seems to be a common practice here where threads are started and abandoned almost immediately by the OP. Maybe admin can think of something to prevent serial abandonment - its a nuisance. 

I always figured that there should be some kind of terminus to threads and abandoned ones esp. But I would just get voted against, folks seem to want to persist forever in the shrine of data storage, a wish for immortality. 

You said you PRACTICE being kind, not BE nice, and tied being nice with lip service and victimhood.  Whatever verbal twist might be in play I will accept ,that which you seem to intend, is meant. 

If in your tradition, a view of enlightenment undermines the spontaneous desire to be warm , since the self is suspect of persistance anyway.. you might perhaps feel that the best one can do is present the appearance of actually giving a shit about others , while pursuing detatchment or disentanglement with the delusioned.