Stosh

It was just another thread, to which my initial reaction would have been something sarcastic In thinking first responding later, I will help myself edit out unwarranted posts rather than instinctively jumping to a response that isnt really what I need to be saying. Stosh

Very nice sutta! Stosh

I think I will read in the morning and write in the afternoon. It will help me to avoid posting back about things like the guy who scratches himself to pee. Stosh

Again, I would say we are in close agreement. But I would add that there is already a guide that folks can use to apply shared definitions. It is called a dictionary And other terms have common accepted meanings ex. murder has a legal definion. (in this country a person must be found guilty of it in a court of law, otherwise words such as perpetrator, defendant, killer are more appropriate) Consider Nikolai, he could have the meanings of the words objective and subjective backwards, and then would only require a glance at a dictionary to clarify himself,, or he really thinks that the backward view is correct. I dont know which it is in reality. What is the sound of one hand clapping? I have many possible responses It sounds like a regular hand clap, but you cannot hear it. It sounds like the absence of a hand clapping , quiet. It sounds like a swish of air. It sounds like a finger snap The question is mu, makes no sense. Who cares what it sounds like?, it will never happen. I couldnt describe it to you ,what it sounds like ,even if I could hear it. ( because sounds are so subjective) It sounds like a bell,(you can't disprove it) The master would not know which response I had behind the blank stare.

Sure, I can say something using the wrong words you can hear wrongly what I said and you end up getting what I intended to say .you twisted what I twisted just so the results produce a direct view of that I indented to say. Ahh, I think I get your meaning here. I knew what you meant, so I must have identical thinking regarding it. That is a somewhat disputable conclusion. Because, We only needed to close in our thinking for me to have a good idea of what you meant. I hear the word 'dragon' , I think of it by the european connotation It is a horrible destructive beast, demonlike and threatening. You hear the word 'dragon' ,and perhaps it is a symbol of fertility rain ,good luck, sagacity etc.. But there are similarities between our dragons as well. So some of our ideas about dragons are similar and some are not. This is true of many words and concepts, the meanings of -what the words mean- depends on our experiences and assciations we have regarding them. I feel that these differences are enough to say that our knowlege is not identical. But agree that some knowlege we each individually have could be 'essentially' the same. I am wondering what you mean by "Then there is the suspension of disbelief that appears attributed to the Sage of Lao"... please elaborate what you mean by it IF you consider it appropriate You seemed to indicate that full and complete suspension of disbelief was not a credible thing to do. That the sheer power of our senses tends to overwhelm our ability to deny the presentation of reality they deliver.. but it seems that Lao-daoists believe that the Sage is capable of it long term. I do not think that one CAN divorce themselves entirely of many of the subjective illusions that we have. ( I feel the Sage of Lao is a literary device developed to carry messages to a reader, not that it is a real possibility for folks to actually think and act like "The Sage". ) I can add more later , I need to get back to work. Stosh

Ok great, though I will prefer to just be patient, knowing that your attention is often otherwise occupied. Stosh

From what you said it seem to me that you want to learn how to dialogue intensely while keeping peace and opening doors to further the dialogue. Yes,I am working to that end ,but it may be a 'fools errand', it takes two hands to clap. For the reason you gave earlier.. ... they prefer to walk away thinking what they think... sometimes even telling me that their close-mindedness is because of my close-mindedness... you said.. I am chuckling because I know how difficult it is to suspend the belief. Oh, I think I am understanding the point you are making. That disbelief that the reality before ones eyes is hard to suspend . And I find your veiw on that very credible. I was referring to taking things lightly such as reading a bedtime story to a child they enjoy the story and react to events in it ,but understand it is just a story and so the reaction is not sincere. People can take life with a great deal of seriousness, every event is some "big deal", others take it lightly they say to themselves , "I will not even remember this a year from now so I will take it lightly" That second view seems normal to me, and wise. Then there is the suspension of disbelief that appears is attributed to the Sage of Lao, I think maybe neither of us finds that credible. So maybe we do agree? What I intended was that its possible for the twisted perception of the twisted sense to result in a true direct view... Can you describe an example.. it is a bit vague. I have not declared any particular affiliation because to me the importance here and now centers on the beliefs on the table Ok, but that makes it a bit difficult for me to get a handle on what direction you are coming from, folks say things which do not seem to fit with the Taoist model as I think it is, if they are Christian or Buddhist , then that difference is already explained, If they affiliate with Taoism then you can discuss why their opinions diverge from standard , and I can also learn what STANDARD is! (since it is probably not me) At times I find myself in agreement with Gattito Vmarco Marblehead Dawei Yourself Stan Herman even ChiDragon, and at other times I am not sure whether they are saying something wise which I am not understanding because I dont understand their phraseology or if I am in fundamental dissagreement with the idea they are promoting. Since many folks here will not stand and parse the words, it is hard to find out! Stosh

I dont care if folks are closed minded,as long as they think just like me Gotta go goodnight. Stosh

I am not sure where you are going with the edit.

I could go with that view too But it at least a self fulfilling equasion, and as far as proving anything can be done Thats a good way to do it

But It only proves the existence of thoughts.

There seems to be some debate whether the ego is a good thing to keep or not. ( I prefer to keep mine , but probably should probably reconsider its importance, I am in a state of flux about this idea myself) There seems to be two views on what an ego is , some use the word to describe a willful sense of self that tends to drive us independent of our surroundings bringing us grief as we fight with what the world is around us. I am not sure that the freudian ego is where the sense of 'self' resides because a person can feel extemely 'present' when acting out of the Superego or the ID. It seems that the majority here prefers to see themselves as "GOOD" or compassionate despite the fact that such feelings are subjective, so I am confused as to whether Taoism considers that paradigm (good vs evil) as an undesirable one to keep or not. But the physical events we observe with our senses are interpreted by our brains into a sort of model which we use to function in the world. (model dependent reality) The model is not the physical reality , the true reality is always beyond our ability to observe, the model is in your head. EX.. You cannot see ultraviolet light , and although it is there.. Ultraviolet light is not in the model you create looking at a tree, cars etc.. The subjective thought realm (subjective reality) isnt observable by anyone else at all! I might be able to read your facial muscles but I don't know what heck you are thinking, unless you bring it into the objective realm by smiling etc, and even then I cant be sure. Stosh

How does my post suggest why the other thing is too quiet? That it is basically a complete surmise already with little doubt or other opening enticing follow up?(Well if that is the case ,,it is at least, not the only quiet one down there.) Ive noticed folks posting around me, and wonder whats up with that even when I have asked questions directly I dont get many responses I may just stop sticking my neck out there and quit posting altogether , because I am thinking folks are wanting validation rather than interplay. Oh well. Yep, we all are muddling through,, and at the same time feel like our own view of things is special! I had to look up the meaning of that straw dog thing myself, what I was told was ,that it relates to a sort of 'suspension of disbelief' about the reality we think we have around us, because we cant directly observe the universe. (the senses are faulty) Stephen Hawking mentioned the idea last night,on his miniseries, as if it was 'new' conclusion , but the idea is 2300 years old. More than a few of the concepts could easily have been construed as Taoist but he never made mention of anybody but Europeans. Several of his conclusions strike me as "SOFT" and not in the 'good' way. Just curious , do you still see good vs bad as a workable paradigm? you havent discarded that conceptry in the process of crushing your ego? Stosh

Yes they are games, and what delineates games from work is that the consequences are indirect It was suggested to me that The Taoist sage treats reality as a straw dog , and so, reality can be seen as a game too. Some do not push, and some do not pull, and some do not know what to do. It is a difficult game and detatchment from the outcome is wise, to avoid loss It is also wise to be personally invested in the game one is playing to encourage gain. This is how I see life in accordance with what can be learned from Tao. regardless of what happens upon ones demise. (I mean that all with a great deal of sincerity.) Stosh PS have a great weekend. and if you want to chat more congenially in a wandering discussion drop by my personal practice journal thing where it is too quiet

your depression changes nothing , same as the guilt ,let it go "with wisdom and dispassion we will find a way through" Why apologize for voicing your opinion? if its not out of place or rude. One shouldn't lie to ones children Im glad you mentioned guilt, believing oneself is forgiven- alleviates it Forgiving alleviates resentment, (when one finds these things available) both subjective illusions are obviated when operating within a paradigm which does not assess fault. Stosh

Life is inherently self perpetuating; and new problems to solve will arise as surely as rain follows the sun. A castle built upon a shore just soggy sand and not much more wave washed away just as before Maybe your post will enjoy a fresh incarnation Stosh

There are those that would say Hope indicates dissatisfaction going forward rather than acceptance. If our brothers are extensions of us we can choose to either help ,or harm, or leave them uninterfered with. If it is my burden to help my brother then it is his burden to help me, and ,for the most part, he can do what is best for both of us by not interfering. Even as children we learn to have pride in what we can do for ourselves and do not have pride about what is done for us What is done for us is debt, which most of us are not happy about, so we try to pay it off if we have pride or humility. I agree ,The environment is a wise thing for any of us to keep in good order. Just what is it that makes a person 'better', was precisely the thing that Lao tzu et al were trying to delineate, but the Sage they described ordinarily behaved in antisocial fashion, so I think I may be supported by them ,in some ideas which seem antisocial but work out topsey-turvey-wise for the best. The last two sentences.. I take no exception to. Stosh

I have spent a good deal of time in the woods, unafraid animals jump about, make noises , kill each other Trip on things fall out of trees etc But nature has no questions that go unanswered maybe that self satisfied state describes your experience. Stosh

Seek forgiveness? from whom? no blood no fouls in this circumstance In sports the term is used indicating the game is expected to be rough there is no referree whining over percieved injustices and bad luck is not to be sympathised with When the game is over we will be "made whole" ( as in legal jargon) Since there is no consequence there is no injustice My opponents win , I lose, and sometimes I lose and my opponents win and sometimes my luck is good and sometimes my luck is bad It is a zero sum equation again being made whole , starting fresh makes it all good One loses a leg, continues to play his game no animosity required The game ends, and this next time maybe he-I am an eagle. Stosh

Whether it be fact or fiction , I was once told that Buddha, when asked about what happenened after death, said "I dont know". I think it was a wise and honest answer. I figure , that if I can be reincarnated , (for what reason I do not know because the great and eternal Tao laughs at me anyway) I could be already incarnated elsewhere and 'elsewhen', so I could already be enlightened. I prefer the idea that I am an illusion while living , a property of the Tao in reality. My particular slate will be wiped clean when I unravel, and I can make a whole new fresh set of choices in a whole fresh set of circumstances. And I am free in this life to muck it all up, or get some things right no blood no foul We are born to strive against the tide awhile , eventually we succumb, but since there is no ultimate goal , it doesn’t matter - to what end -we all will come. We fail physically and end , and we fail because the things we held to be real ,never really were. And we all succeed because our part , was but to play a part , whatever part we will.

Is this to be a reincarnation of someone?

Almost Anything taken to the extreme has undesirable consequence. jogging vitamins smoking talking peaceful abiding You may feel it ironically justified but it is just the problem with extreme behavior. Stosh

From the buddhist perspective , just what is the determining agent which delineates 'virtuous' conduct? Someone elses opinion?

I wouldn't believe it though. I would consider it a temporary state