Wayfarer

Hi Basher,

This is the first I've heard of Peak House and David James Lees. You sound to me like you already know you want to give him a try. His Wu Wei description is like that of Druidic "Awen" which I'll leave you to research. I personally don't hold much store about people coming to the UK as Taoist masters and the Purple Cloud Temple is particularly a tourist destination but that aside what he is offering will help a lot of people I think. Whether it helps them understand Taoism or Awakening more deeply I'm not sure - depends what floats your boat.

If you are ever in Warwickshire you are welcome to attend our Taoist group. You can see what we did last meeting on the link below where there is also a bit of something I have written on Wu Wei, if that is something you are interested in. I must say that what I wrote about it is not the whole of Wu Wei but something reflective of what was said in the group meeting.

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Warwickshire-Taoist-Group/478541942232778#!/pages/Warwickshire-Taoist-Group/478541942232778

Being in Surrey, you might wish to consider the British Taoist Association who meet several times a year in West Sussex, you can see their events here:

http://www.taoists.co.uk/events.htm

The BTA website tells you of their lineage and you might like the association's magazine "The Dragon's Mouth". The BTA and the temple it is associated with seem well respected. Their practice centres around tranquil sitting and dao yin exercises. Shi Jing, the senior priest talks eloquently and deeply about the Tao Te Ching and Chuang Tsu. There is a good atmosphere among the people there too.

Best wishes,

Heath

Hi all,

Here is just a small part of it...

"Whoever finds the interpretation of these sayings will not experience death."

"Let him who seeks continue seeking until he finds. When he finds, he will become troubled. When he becomes troubled, he will be astonished, and he will rule over the All."

"If those who lead you say to you, 'See, the Tao is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the Tao is inside of you, and it is outside of you. When you come to know yourselves, then you will become known, and you will realize that it is you who are the sons of the Tao. But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty."

"The sage will not hesitate to ask a small child seven days old about the place of life, and he will live. For many who are first will become last, and they will become one and the same."

The sage said, "Recognize what is in your sight, and that which is hidden from you will become plain to you . For there is nothing hidden which will not become manifest."

"Heaven will pass away, and the one above it will pass away. The dead are not alive, and the living will not die. In the days when you consumed what is dead, you made it what is alive. When you come to dwell in the light, what will you do? On the day when you were one you became two. But when you become two, what will you do?"

"I shall give you what no eye has seen and what no ear has heard and what no hand has touched and what has never occurred to the human mind."

"Have you discovered, then, the beginning, that you look for the end? For where the beginning is, there will the end be. Wise is he who will take his place in the beginning; he will know the end and will not experience death."

"Great is he who came into being before he came into being. If you follow me and listen to my words, these stones will minister to you. For there are five trees for you in Paradise which remain undisturbed summer and winter and whose leaves do not fall. Whoever becomes acquainted with them will not experience death."

"It is I who am the all. From me did the all come forth, and unto me did the all extend. Split a piece of wood, and I am there. Lift up the stone, and you will find me there."

"You read the face of the sky and of the earth, but you have not recognized the one who is before you, and you do not know how to read this moment."

Okay so you have probably got it...Jesus, The Gospel of St Thomas...I've put "Tao" where he said "Father or Kingdom".

^{Now that I've lured you in with that criptic title, lol...}

 

^{I feel a little silly, but I don't understand how the mystical traditions and the philosophy can fit together in the same mental space. It seems like the sage that Lao Tzu describes doesn't have many concerns with immortality or controling body energies or semen retention. So I'm just wondering if anyone here who practices the mystical side of the folk religion could help me understand how it relates to the philosophical ideas. Doesn't all that striving and praying cloud the whole concept? They seem mutually exclusive to me.}

^Hi,

^{I have investigated just that for the last few years and in the end gave up. It is a little like a Chinese man asking another Chinese man what is Christianity in England. Is the exorcism practice of an old Catholic tradition the same practice as the Quakers? Etc etc. As I'm sure you know, Taoism did not begin with the Tao Te Ching (TTC) and no expert seems to be able to accurately pinpoint a time when it did. It became at one point people practising the Way. When we read the I-Ching we can see much of Taoism there and that goes way back before TTC and also the energy and health writing of the Yellow Emperor of various dates but seemingly around 2,700BCE. So to me, there are a number of practices all happening together under no specific banner other than - the Natural Way. So perhaps we should only look to modern day Taoism for clues and we see of course the Zhengyi practice of Exorcisms, Medium work, communication with Immortals, Weddings, Funerals etc...from what I've read Taoism went this way as a consequence of Chinese people giving money to the new Buddhist religion so Taoists realised they had to either copy the Buddhist temple work, be of more use to people in villages/towns or go hungry. And the we have the Longmen tradition of the Quanzhen school which is more akin to Buddhist temple life and tranquil sitting. Though of course there are others - see Louis Komjathy's books for more info.}

^{As I've said elsewhere...immortality means two separate things in a Taoist sense 1) Attaining the Tao is to realise you are that which is unchanging and therefore immortal...this then is a Knowing which occurs at the moment of realisation, of no-self and 2) energy exercises, diets and a whole host of prayers rituals and so on to extend the life of a person.}

^{Those people I know who have ventured to Huashan etc in search of Taoist masters discover it is hard to find any. At least in a Lao Tsu sense (although no one really knows who he is, or who they were). I've heard of people with psychological, drug and drink problems going into the mountains to live the Taoist life as they have nowhere else to go, temples also become a little like visiting St Paul's Cathedral or Sacre Coeur i.e. a day trip to site see, not to find some deeply spiritual corner of the world. Taoism of course sees the Western traveller as a gold mine at a time when temples are struggling financially - so innocent visitors can be sold a crock of crap as long as they hand over some money. All a little harsh but isn't much of religion like this? The British Taoist Association have connections with the kind of temple and priests I think you would say practise authentic Taoism so may be take a look on their site for info.}

^{Ultimately and as you have elluded to, the Tao is everywhere. In essence, if you leave your home and travel to China you have gone nowhere, you haven't moved. So stay where you are. Look at trees and clouds, flowers and animals all practising the Tao without realising or thinking about it - there, that's where you'll find Lao Tsu. If anywhere or anything in nature can be found communicating with immortals through ritual or ceremony, or exorcising demons through symbols and blessings - then it will be the Tao but there isn't but for man, so such practises are really not the Tao. Again however, utlimately everything is Tao and so nothing is.}

^{Out of interest...you may wish to read the Gospel of St Thomas, a scroll that was discovered early last century and believed to be the actual words of Christ - very Taoist, very Zen.}

^{Good topic.}

^Heath

Hello Leir the Fox,

My practice has led me to think that if there is a decision to make then I am not ready to make it. If we are talking strictly Taoist in principle does the Way not come of itself? The ideas of abandoning writing or abandoning self are a kind of 'doing' - we might think that in stopping them we have not-doing but these are tied to an idea of how and who we are.

The Heart of the Tao is something we each share and if finds different expression. I think (though I don't know) that its need to express is as a consequence of mankind being mostly unable to 'hear' or 'see' how the Heart 'is'. When we arrive at that knowing we realise our heart wants for nothing but to be at rest, at peace and as of our Nature. So this is a development and hence a cultivation. Even if the writing does not express the Tao the act of it is a responding to your 'call'. Perhaps it is through that call that you will hear the True-Heart most clearly and in doing so no longer need to write. So then, there will be no decision to make as it has come naturally of itself and there will be no happiness or sadness at whatever occurs because you will be an expression of that endless pool of stillness.

Finally, when our 'head' tells us we should 'do' something or make a decision it does so without realising the flow of what is coming naturally to fruition and in our attempts to force things into being we sever that flow and metaphorically turn it away from us. So a sage would likely not even consider it - more perhaps thinking "I'm writing because it is the current expression of the Tao" and "I am considering abandoning the self for it is also a manifestation of the Tao". In not-doing, we arrive at the Tao of that particular moment.

So, sit back my friend and let the world bring 'IT' to you, whatever that it might be.

Good luck with the writing.

The main reason for meditating is to notice the presence of stillness within which occurs when one completely settles. That ever-lasting pool of stillness is the quality of our true-nature and is overlooked because we are generally unsettled by our thinking. So whichever way settles you the most is what you should do.

Bodhidharma noticed true-nature present in a cave wall...whether you believe he saw it or preferred to sit facing it so the mind was not distracted it points to the fact that he had is eyes open. If they are closed what does it matter what you face?

When the Stillness of what is present on the inside notices the Stillness of what is present on the outside the mind is triggered into realising in and out are not separate but a single presence...then awakens. Then we realise that meditation is whatever we do and the state of calm is no different with eyes shut or open, sitting or walking.

Hope this helps.

Heath

I began Lee style n 1992,a nice flowing style that is fairly easy to learn. Hey Awen, with a name like that you are either Welsh or a Druid I guess.

Well, the class was this morning, and went far better than I anticipated. I decided to just show the Five Treasure's qigong from the nqa website which has served me very well for the last few years, and they LOVED it!

 

It's funny because about 3 weeks before I was asked to do this, I had actually sent a letter to the nqa asking what sort of permission I could get to teach this form as a community service.. no idea that I would be asked to teach it. They never got back to me so I figured it was a bit too much for the nqa to just give me a nod of permission like that. Well, without their permission, they're not responsible at least.

 

Out of the 12 people there, there were only 2 who seemed not so interested, but still said they felt very relaxed and good. The other comments were almost astonishingly positive. I mentioned to google "Five Treasures qi gong, nqa" and they can purchase a video for $10 from nqa.org. Either way, we can add another 12 true believers!

Hey HE, that's great news.

A couple of pointers:

1) I always say "if 'I' can get out of the way, the Way happens." The request to teach/share has come from the Way, the Flow, to you and you decided to answer that by giving it a go. Is this not Taoism? Non-interference with that which has naturally arisen? So while it may seem naive to not worry about reactions and conditions, would the sage worry? It could also be argued that the answers on this forum are also the Flow. So perhaps the lesson here is to keep it simple (as you have done) and as you gradually get to know people better the inspiration of what to share with them will come of itself.

2) Take out a little insurance. Here in the UK it costs around £40 a year and gives you around £5M cover. If however you are not collecting money and just sharing then perhaps you don't need to.

I have taught Chi Kung to friends, I offer it in the mornings to people on ski holidays and I offer it in the Taoist group (as do others) - you could always finish the class with a calming, stilling exercise to return the energies to normal. Don't forget, these videos we all buy and watch aren't concerned with the after effects we all have and of course such effects may have nothing to do with Chi Kung - and of course to sue someone over it is difficult as how can they prove it was your fault. I expect though that it is not the fear of being sued but just not wanting to make people suffer that is key.

For me, I would do it and let the Universe sort out the rest. Truth and rightness have their own way of finding their place.

Good luck.

Heath

If there is at the most 1, but more realiticly not even 1, then whos doing the arguing with who and whats the point??? I suppose you could argue that the point of arguing is to establish equalibrium, but when egos are involved which they are in every case, then the point of establishing equilibrium by arguing is usually that the arguers like to think the foundation of balance is their point of view.

 

I should correct my last post and clarify. I said that"The nature of tao is to harmonize and bring to equalibrium" but that is riddled with falseness and wrongness interwoven into the language now that you bring it my attention.

 

The nature of tao is not to bring things to equalibrium or do anything at all; the nature of tao is stillness and rest, therefore all things are harmonized and brought to equilibrium by the everpresent stillness of tao without anything doing anything...more like nothing doing nothing.

Fantastic post. Spot on.

Nothing deserves praise, not enlightenment, not tao. If tao is praised then its a God. All things being integral and equal why should one thing be exalted above another? Thats an immediate imbalance. The nature of tao is to harmonize and bring to equalibrium.

Although it could be argued there not even being one never mind 'things' so what is it that is brought into equalibrium? Good points all the same.

I think this is a valuable insight - and seems to be very much in line with much of what I find in the Lao-tzu.

 

Where we part ways a bit is I don't agree that the Chuang-tzu has a notion of 'the One'; in fact I think in places it expressly speaks against such an idea:

 

"Now that we are one can I still say something? Already having called us one, did I not succeed in saying something? One and the saying makes two, two and one make three. Proceeding from here even an expert calculator cannot get to the end of it, much less a plain man! Therefore if we take the step from nothing to something we arrive at three, how much worse if we take the step from something to something! Take no step at all, and the 'That's it' which goes by circumstances [yin shih] will come to an end - Ch 2 trans. Graham.

 

It seems to me that the Chuang-tzu is more radical than the Lao-tzu it is not that there is the One but more so there is Nothing. So death and life are nothing, in naming them we bring them forth; it is this realization which frees us from death, but it does not make us 'immortal' (a claim is one Chuang-tzu explicitly rejects in Ch 4). A view, which if I understand your post, you seem to share.

 

As for the use of the concept 'enlightenment'; my only concern (and it arguably is a trivial one), is that it is really a Buddhist concept (none the worse for that!) but in labeling the classics with such terminology we will, to some extent twist them just as glass bends the light. Better, if we can, to read the texts without trying to classify...

 

Anyhow thank you for your thoughtful post

Hi I'm trying to respond via a Blackberry and can only read parts of your post while I type. A good post btw. I think we agree and I agree with Chuang Tsu...by describing it, we separate ourselves from it, at least cognitively. You and I are the same Tao, talking of itself...a distinction can only be considered if thoughts of One or not-one arises. When there is no delusion there is no thought of it.

The emptiness of Buddhism, the Nothingness of Taoism...non-duality, One-God are different descriptions of the same thing. It becomes a thing when we think that there is a 'me' and 'other-than-me' however it is the fact these are one that the world is both full and empty.

Imagine a body of water and nothing exists within or beyond it...would the water be full or empty? It would be both and neither would it not but who could say lol? Everything that is you and not you is the water.

Heath

Is that personal experience, or being told by a "sage" in person, or pure speculation? Thanks.

Personal experience. I practise Taoism because it is the most honest reflection of what I have experienced. While it sounds koy, the only teacher I have had is nature. Books haven't taught me a thing worth knowing...but I'm open to learning still, if it doesn't seem that way. It is why I am here as it is clear others have also had similar experiences.

Hey R.O.Z,

Yes Barcelona is the only one I know of. If you don't like Google try Yahoo lol.

If I was to offer a friend advice regarding what you have asked I would say forget temples, forget travelling, the Tao you want to know is already where you are. Enter the temple of nature, spend time sitting among trees, rivers, wild meadows. Every single one of us already KNOWS. We were born Knowing - it is deep inside of us but we overlook it by constantly DOING and trying to get somewhere.

The antidote is not-doing. Smell a flower and Be. Then you might notice the sweet fragrance of your True-Self. You are the Teacher.

Good luck, whatever you decide.

Have you actually read the classics?

 

While the Lao-tzu is silent on the issue of immortality both the Chuang-tzu (esp Ch 6 though also Ch's 3, 4 & 5) and the Lieh-tzu (Ch's 1 & 6) expressly advocate against the notion of immortality; rather they see reconciliation with death as merely part of inevitable change (hua).

 

To take only one of myriad examples: the opening of Ch 3 Chuang-tzu expressly makes the following argument; life is confined, if we use it (life) to pursue the unconfined that is purest danger (tai). Throughout both the Chaung-tzu and the Lieh-tzu people are criticised for their inability to accept the inevitability of death.

 

The cult of immortality seems to enter into 'taoism' during the period of Han Synthesis in about 200AD about half a millennia after the writings of Lao-tzu and Chaung-tzu. It seems to have its roots in Shamanism; which itself is mocked in the Chuang-tzu; Lieh-tzu (see for example the story of the meeting of Lieh-tzu the shaman and Hu-tzu) and is not discussed in the Lao-tzu.

 

As for enlightenment; it is certainly true that the classics talk of 'sages', 'men of old', or 'utmost men'. However it is interesting that these figures are usually murky often absurdly mythical; in the Chuang-tzu they are often given 'silly' names 'Nobody's-there'; 'No-name'. In other passages talking about 'sages' the stories are introduced as 'reckless speech' or 'wild words like the milky way'. In the Lieh-tzu we find similar motifs and, moreover the 'sage' is at a couple of points compared to an automaton - that is explicitly non-human.

 

I think it is entirely plausible to read taoist texts on the basis that sage-hood; while an ideal to aim it; is not, in fact, attainable (moreover there is good contextual evidence for this reading as we know that the use of 'sages' is common to almost all philosophical schools of the warring states - Confucianism, Mohism, Yangism etc... and no-one would accuse these schools of advocating anything as 'spiritual' as 'enlightenment').

 

The notion of 'enlightenment' as you seem to be describing sounds far closer to the later religious taoism (道敎) which developed after 200AD not the philosophical taoism (道家) of the classics written c.600BC-200AD.

Hi everyone,

Both those who are Awake and those are not are the Tao, so to me, a post that appears to lack understanding is of equal importance to one that seems to understand. It is our cogition that gets in the way of our 'knowing' but also can help lead us there - to that which is ever present and cognition also is.

Penfold I think you ask fair questions. There is a difference between immortality and avoiding death. In Chuang Tsu for instance people who take up the Way to avoid death misunderstand what it means to be immortal so in essence their striving for it obstructs their view of what is ablaze before them. While it is true in Taoism there is the practice of 'immortality' i.e. to live longer, to improve and maintain our energy etc there is also realising we are immortal which is different. The latter refer to a person who has realised that what they thought of themselves as 'self' is actually inside and outside of the body - a single oneness established everywhere. It is all places at once and all things at once simply because all places and all things are IT. When this is 'seen' or the illusion of 'self' is overcome we realise we are that which never alters.

If for instance I cut off my hand we may think something has altered but it and I are still the same IT. Much of Taoism talks of stillness and tranquillity. These are important for the thing we overlook is present as a Settledness - that quality can be noticed everywhere within and without us. When we become aware of the One we instantly realise there is neither enlightenment nor not-enlightenment, there is just the dropping away of an ignorance of what we are. Being ignorant does not alter that. A dog being ignorant that it is a dog does not make it something else.

In noticing Original Nature or the quality of that which is Present we also draw closer to a Knowing, a Wisdom that underlies our thinking and is rooted in that timeless, spaceless, empty-fullness. So a sage is one who lives, breathes and speaks through that knowing, that settledness, that tranquillity.

Finally, this 'state' of Original Nature, our Being, is the Way, for it is the Original Nature of all, it is the Way of all, for all is the Way. So a sage is not different than a river or a cloud. Nothing being better or worse, the sage is untouched. All being a Sameness the sage responds through that Sameness.

So yes, there is enlightenment. To realise that it doesn't exist one must first experience it! I've rattled on - I'll stop now.

Hi Bob, Seth, Boy,

Thanks for the messages again. I particularly like this section:

Last is that Being which does not come in the cycle of tattvas that Being called Parama Śiva. Parama Śiva is not only found in śiva tattva or in śakti tattva. It is not only here, not only there. You will find It everywhere. You will find It from the lowest tattva to the highest. It is all levels, and therefore no level. It is everywhere, that is why It is nowhere. The one Being who is everywhere, It is nowhere".

My original message was regarding the pure consciousness being conscious of something but hey we (I) am splitting hairs. I have read the Bhadavad Gita and Patanjali which are similar to what I've read here as is much of Taoism which I practice. This is what I mean by religions pointing to a single thing, yes there are lots of Gods and Goddesses and some people believe in them or see them as a reflection of Parama Siva. Whichever, the quote I've included here is bang on the button for me.

You all have a wonderful evening too.

Heath

You are probably right Seth. Isn't Vedanta about non-duality. So look at your questions at where they might be dualistic. Perhaps non-duality is rigid and yet somehow open - a paradox huh?

Thanks Bob, that is the first Upanishad I have read and I'm glad you have included it. There is (to me) a step further than what is written here but whether it matters or not is arguing over trifling things really. And I'm not here to argue my corner, just to discuss openly with people as it is not something you can chat about with folk at a bar and I am interested in anyone's views as we have a lot of wise people here.

What I talk of has come from personal experience and I then investigated various religions to see if what I had experienced was similar or the same as of that mentioned in holy books and scripture. It seems clear to me that all religions are pointing to the same thing; that which is Nameless and does not exist because it is in fact the only thing to exist.

The "Truth" has to apply to all things for it to be true - not just man and not just life. Whatever was relevant to the person who wrote/spoke the above Upanishad must also be relevant to a stone or the space between planets. If we are to call something consciousness or awareness then it must also be present (and aware/conscious) when we are unconscious or if we were a stone. So here is the fine dividing line: when we Awaken to that which is alight everywhere we are not at our natural state of being because our "awareness" and "consciousness" of there being a God/True-Self ablaze everywhere is the mind thinking about the Mind. That awareness is what prevents our going beyond, to our Original State of being. It is still a residue.

So if I were unconscious where would that residue be, where would thoughts of holy or unholy be? Does a stone have such thoughts? Is the space between planets actively conscious of either itself or the Divine Presence?

A holy person might argue that God is aware while I am not, however that creates separation and duality. I am that which is God, what changes when I am no longer conscious is I am no longer aware - so awareness cannot be the True-State for it is not always present. Therefore pure consciousness cannot be aware of form or a reality of itness - it just IS. A bird singing a song is its Original Nature. Its ignorance of the Divine is bliss because it also ignorant of un-Divine and therefore there is no consideration of duality or not, holy or not. Humanity however in general thinks of self and when it awakens thinks of SELF but the latter is as much a trap as the former - to be as our natural self we need to go beyond even thoughts of it or awareness or consciousness of it; then we are totally free in our natural innocence - without a care.

Many blessings,

Heath

I confess to not knowing much about Vedanta. Only came across it because someone here said I sound like I talk Neo-Advaita clap trap - so here goes more lol

To me the above comment is a step removed from "Truth"...While I agree there is only one reality - which is both form and non-form, I do not agree that it is consciousness aware of being conscious, or that something realises itself. This is a step removed from how things is.

To me, there is only Presence or being. The things we think of as being 'things' are an 'it', where nothing beyond 'it' exists. When we are aware of 'it' or think of 'it' this (in our thinking but not reality) creates distance from 'it'. Our natural state, which is the state of 'it' is not conscious of itself, it just is. In other words there can not be an awareness of awareness as this creates an 'of' or 'about' something. This is kind of like being caught in Self once it has been noticed by the little self. There is still distance for there is a mind thinking about Mind. So for instance when we day dream, are absent-minded or are sleep (but not dreaming) we are That-Which-Is, where there is no self awareness of self or Self. There only is.

If humanity remained as intellectually advanced as a baby there would be no thought of consciousness or awareness, or even realisation...this is the natural state: being without aware of being.

Hope I've managed to convey what I mean!

Heath

Just for the record in case it is throwing confusion into the mix...by 'stabilizing muscles' I mean the use of muscles in an unconscious way to keep the body upright or in balance. So if we are stood waiting for a bus we may only become aware of our posture if we have pain/tension or begin to tire - we are not thinking "okay I'm going to stand so lets tense the lower back the abs etc to create balance" it happens without our thinking. And we don't need to alter them unless we feel tension or pain - which usually means we are using muscles normally associated with motion to keep the body in balance as the stabilising muscles do not tire in the same way as those used for motion - therefore they are being 'held' rather than allowed to expand and contract as is their primary function - to move us. So for instance, it could be argued that muscles used to operate the heart are similar to those that function to keep us upright - they do not tire and they are not under our conscious control.

When dealing with the concept of developing internal power, I hear one of two things: 1) Condense breathe, circle through microcosmic orbit. 2) Just be still in standing practice.

 

I tend to like the former, rather than the latter. I've heard people say that neither will work. What are the various methods for developing internal power?

 

Shawn

Hi Shawn,

Just thought I'd give you my experience - not saying it is right or wrong but your question has encouraged me to put them in some sort of order:

So, in order of importance to my practice:

1) Settling the Heart - remaining calm and tranquil. This means we do not waste/leak the energy we have and it also means that we have a greater abundance of energy to help the immune system function to help remain healthy.

2) Qigong - I personally let the breath sort itself out but after 23 years of practice I do naturally breathe into my belly (so to speak) - any moves that help improve posture and flow of the body while gathering in energy.

3) I like to engage with the earth - rubbing my hands in herbs and smelling them, walking bare foot on the earth to feel the energy. Ditto for the sky - you get my meaning.

4) Tai Chi - while I prefer Qigong which of course Tai Chi is one part of, TC is better (to me) at helping my posture when moving in ordinary life because it involves a flow of connecting movement and the body moving as a whole.

5) Resistance - the mind imagining that the torso moves through something like water, where it feels there is resistance. This helps to imagine Chi movement and generally stops us becoming all arms and hands in our movement - so they remain like seaweed while the body is the movement of the ocean.

That's off the top of my head - I'm sure there's more

Thank you. The final conclusion says all.....

 

PS.....

At the "lactate threshold", that is when the mitochondria start to not manufacturing ATP due to the lack of oxygen or hypoxia. Hence, the muscles are no longer have the energy for contraction and become fatigue. During Zhan Zhuang, under this condition, the leg muscles become weaken and can no longer support the body weight due to the collapse of the energy level.

I must say that such threads are a credit to Tao Bums as I have certainly learnt some things I didn't know about the body - so thank you. There was something I wanted to say about the use of stabilising muscles and moving muscles but I can't quite remember it - may be someone here will fill in the gaps...I think a key element of ZZ is that we become aware of how we are using 'moving' muscles to stabilise the body when in fact we shouldn't and therefore we 'use' more energy than we should for the practice. When, through small tweaks in posture we find we can relax the muscles used for motion and rely on the stabilising muscles we discover less effort is required due to our relying on the unconscious mind, to maintain posture (as it does while standing or sitting). So therefore particularly if we work with a good instructor we can spot where we are using strength rather than position to hold the posture.

So I am now a little confused as to why Lam Kam would ask us to bend our legs beyond their normal capacity to naturally sustain a position when we are trying to work with stabilising muscles. Though I suspect that in tiring those muscles beyond their current endurance but trying to relax them using our conscious thinking we improve the flow of energy. I can only say that my experience is that when I tire, I begin to shake, although parts such as my hands and forearms may become numb, soon after I get hotter and my heart rate can increase and / or my breath becomes more rapid while trying to get more oxygen in the body - but then it settles down again.

A pretty amazing technique whatever we might feel about it!

Thanks Heath

 

Actually I mentioned half lotus because it is actually my most relaxed position, aside from laying flat on my back - which I actually fo more of lately.

 

When you say "the body, mind and energy settle - when this occurs the 'pearl' becomes noticed" - where do you "observe/notice the pearl"? In the naval center - or are you noticing it beyond location.

 

I certainly notice the pearl more strongly with greater relaxation.

 

I must disagree that moving through the organ virtues and condensing the pearl is rubbish - it is a very healing energy when cycled through the Microcosmic orbit.

Hi Horus,

Decided to delete my original reply to the above, not that there was anything wrong or right with it but we each need to discover our own way and what works for us.

Best of luck,

H

I've just started on the Lesser Kan & Li theory, and have an interesting question about the process.

 

In Mantak Chia's Text:"Lesser Kan and Li:Enlightenment and The Birth of the Immortal Fetus:

 

It says that:

 

 

Does anyone with Kan and Li experience care to comment on the concept in the last line:

 

"The body is scorched, the souls are sold, and spirit returns to its original home".

 

Specifically with reggards to the "body is scorched, the souls are sold" process...

 

What exactly is the "souls are sold" process - what does it mean by sold? who/what are the "souls" "sold" to?

 

I recently read Rudolf Steiner discussing the luciferic initiation, and immortality.

 

“Lucifer wants to take men's souls away and found a planet with them of his own. Ahriman has to help him. While Lucifer sucks the juice out of the lemon, as it were, Ahriman presses it out, thereby hardening what remains."

[Rudolf Steiner, INNER IMPULSES OF EVOLUTION (Anthroposophic Press, 1984), lecture 2, GA 171.]

 

I'm not saying that the Universal Tao process is Luciferic, or that the Kan and Li Process, or Taoist Immortality is a luciferic intiation process....

 

I'm asking:

 

What is this "souls are sold" process in Kan & Li, and Taoist immortality, ...and how does it differ to the luciferic initiation immortality?

 

 

 

Hi, I haven't heard of Kan and Li nor the Lucifer references but that doesn't matter much. Both quotes are unhelpful,they sound fascinating but are quite muddled. Firstly, the soul cannot be sold as it is the same as Tao, the body is the same as Soul so it cannot be burned, what burns it is also Soul. The metaphors therefore mean this...upon realisation the body is burned because we suddenly see that our physical body is not the boundary of what we are and the soul is sold because in that moment the 'self' is seen through as being false. All the physical changes are descriptions and metaphors of the experience of awakening and beyond. They are a consequence of it and not something we should do to realise.

Lucifer, the Devil...is not some ruler of hell, a red beast with horns but the thinking mind. In the Bible it is believed that our thoughts prevent us from hearing the word of God, hence the importance of silent contemplation.

Hope this helps

Heath

It is from the heart and artery, but not from the brain. Is that what you meant.....???

No but I know what you mean. I'm no doctor but this is my understanding...when the muscles suffer from fatigue a number of things happen; blood temperature increases which can impact on the brain's ability to maintain its temperature and it needs to do something about that and also signals go to the brain to alert it of those tired muscles so it responds by trying to keep those muscles active, or doing what you are trying to get them to do - pumping iron, running or in this case holding a position. So blood flow is increased / more directed to those areas that are in demand and therefore they receive more oxygen. The oxygen combined with glucose creates energy and that energy is needed for the muscles to maintain their performance.

So...if you stand long enough in Zhan Zhuang there will come a point when your muscles fatigue, if you don't move them they begin to shake or spasm as they do not have the energy (the watts) to maintain the position. The brain recognises that more energy is required but even so, you fight through the fatigue but the brain cannot do any more to overcome the tiredness and eventually your head will become hot - because the temperature of the blood entering the brain is too hot - when this happens the brain loses its ability to function effectively and the whole body becomes fatigued and you are forced to stop so the blood can cool down and the brain returns to normal efficiency.

So in our practice we try to get to the point where the muscles first experience fatigue, through trembling, shaking and then we stop shortly after knowing that blood flow has been increased to those areas and we get the boost of energy. I expect, though I don't know without looking that some chemical is used in the brain to stimulate this flow - similar to the buzz we get after hard exercise - I think these are endorphins released by the pituitary but it has been a long time since I did my anatamy and physiology course

Hope this helps and I'd be interested in other theories of course.

I used to work in Nuneaton! Still have friends there, and knew Birmingham quite well! I have also completed the Wolverhampton and Birmingham Marathon's!

 

Maybe! Always open to possibilities Wayfarer! If your ever in Liverpool do let me know and your more than welcome to call and have a chat and a coffee!

 

Namaste,

 

gentlwind

Thank you Gentlewind, I will. I am from Lancashire originally so sometimes find myself back up that neck of the woods!