Wayfarer

Hey Tara, a warm welcome from sunny England

I can't seem to include a quote in my reply but to Songtsan - it depends how deep down the rabbit hole you want to go; if not then ignore this...

"Yeah, all the states I experience are thought derived or thought initiated" - yes, which is also a thought for there is the belief in a 'you' experiencing 'something', which is natural in a way but in truth dualistic... if there is non-duality, what can experience what? There can only be Experience.

"Obviously I just need to empty my mind state"... - you are emptiness itself and do not have a need. You are listening to your "you", your mind that is saying "I just need to blah, blah" - you cannot do what you are hoping to do by listening to it, the mind is what is obscuring your realising that you are already THAT...

"But is there something just beyond the mind?" - your mind is making things up! We all do it. There is no you, so what is beyond that which is nothing? I'm not saying "you" are unreal; you are Reality as is everything else you see - a Totality of One...not a collection of things connected together BUT one thing alone. It is Being and nothing exists within or beyond it. Only your thinking; which has at its base confusion, is spinning you this tale, spinning everyone a lie...so do you want to listen to it lying to you? If not, ignore it, as you would someone you don't want to hear. Try it for a week, see what happens.

"I want to be sure that there is no special goal, focus or technique..." - I'm saying you are the Absolute Nameless No-Thing - what does that require? What need could it have; when there is only it ITSELF? Only 'you' think of a need, or a goal because you do not believe you are already emptiness. That truly is your nature but you haven't yet realised it, would it not make sense then that you need to stop doing, stop needing, stop reaching out, to at last turn to yourself; That which has nothing to reach out to, nothing to require or acquire?

It's not easy and you may think I'm talking a crock of crap - you won't know until you 'stop'. How hard is it to stop? How big an expert do you need to be, to do nothing? You won't begin to see the lie, until you start to ignore the 'need', then in the silence of it all, the need begins to fade, the thought begins to fade, 'you' begins to fade.

Hey Woodcarver, you said that you have trouble eliminating unwanted thoughts successfully...this is why...what is 'selecting' certain thoughts is thought, what decides to eliminate them is thought, what analyses success is thought.

You are trying to rid yourself of thought by using the very thing you wish to be rid of; thought. That is not possible. I may be repeating myself (I forget what I've said where)...any thought is like a fly buzzing over a still lake; your attention is taken by flies and you do not see what lies beneath; replacing a thought by using a thought does not clear the view. Pay no attention to the flies and one begins to glimpse the lake. And all without 'doing', nice huh?

Perhaps we could bend one knee and keep the other straight???? Is this turning in to the hokey cokey?

Songtsan, a person who experiences enlightenment realises in that moment there is nobody enlightenment occurs to; there is only One; That which they are, That which all things IS - and IT cannot be Awake or deluded; these are states created by thought.

Whether you realise it or not, you are already That - you are something that is neither one thing or another; you only 'think' you are one thing or another. When you don't think, what are you then?

So in a sense, all this idea of cultivation, working towards harmony and striving for achievement arises from the belief you are not already That. You cannot achieve what you already are, you cannot create harmony where there is only One, and you cannot cultivate something that is a delusion...so what can you do?

If you want to see through the delusion of self, of Songtsan, the obstacle is believing in your thinking "I am this, I need that, I can't be arsed, I will do." This is not the thoughtless place of That which is No-where, and No-thing. So maybe pay no attention to those thoughts that arise, and a space begins to grow between thinking; what remains in the silence? Or, as recommended in V16 of the TTC, observe the settled-quality of all things - for they are That which is unmoving and therefore still. You could test all you know against non-duality. The list is endless.

It is a peculiar thing, to do nothing, to think nothing and not bother. A person might think, great no need to read scripture, I'll sit back and watch a movie or go to the pub "I don't need to do anything" - but really this advice is meant for a person who has tried everything they can and has come to the realisation nothing is working; letting go can then be a powerful thing.

Only 'you' stands in your way. "I" can't do a thing about that.

Zhan Zhuang is the practice I like the most. It may appear simple, just standing there doing nothing but it is a sensitive exercise, a deep internalising and extremely powerful; it is no different than yoga or tai chi in that copying a few postures and reading a book or watching a DVD and thinking you are getting somewhere is ultimately fooling yourself. It doesn't do it justice at all. And as alluded to already, sometimes it's not always the case that doing a little of something is better than not doing it at all. Zhan Zhuang needs to be done correctly. If your posture is wrong then you can be inviting greater tension into your body and having the adverse affect of the practice - don't assume you will know when your posture is wrong.

If you really cannot find a teacher, take a look at this excellent book "Inside Zhan Zhuang" by Mark Cohen it is 358 pages long. I can't add the Amazon link but you'll find it. Zhan Zhuang deserves better than a cursory 'go' now and then - and like many simple things it is not easy, you will still be discovering new things about it decades on. I travel around 170 miles to a class, it's that big a deal.

Good luck.

One of Britain's most loved Bards Taliesin (meaning Radiant Brow) wrote many poems including the following from the Black Book of Carmarthenshire.

BATTLE OF THE TREES

I was in many forms

before I was set free

I was a narrow blood-spotted sword

I believe, when I was formed

I was teardrops in the air

I was a star-woven star

I was the truth of a letter

I was the tale of origins

I was illuminated lanterns...

It is quite an epic. Taliesin is also part of the tale of Ceridwen and the Cauldron; a welsh tale of inner alchemy.

Lots of stuff in our own language, of these isles

It seems that the clearer the 'Truth' is described the more a person either refutes or accepts it; there is really little room for anything else.

How can a person be told "there is no you" and believe it? It needs to be internalised somehow and that doesn't happen (it seems) with clear explanation; it requires either some form of questioning that forces the practitioner to contemplate the answer or a poem/riddle/parable where the meaning is hidden in the space between words; in what is not said.

Ultimately, all things are One. We can grasp this intellectually to a limited degree. If we think along the Oneness idea for a moment then perhaps we might ask ourselves; if there is only One, how can there be cause and effect? What is it that is reincarnated? What is talking to what? What needs more information? and so on...

Now in reading those questions you begin to internalise them and this works better than being given the answers, no matter how accurate they might be...and yet when the Answer is realised and Oneness experienced...would you expect to find someone knows and someone doesn't? Or someone is awake and another is deluded?

I recommend that any 'understanding' a person may have is tested against the idea of non-duality e.g...I believe there are people who are Awake and those who are deluded...now stop for a moment and ask yourself, does this fit with non-duality or is my thinking dualistic? If you see duality in your belief then question it, this is how we deepen our understanding. So I see something wrong in my view...there cannot be some enlightened people and some who are not as that is dualistic thinking, so I ask myself what does this mean, how can it not be 'true' - so I internalise, and Self-Enquire

Best of luck.

What's wrong with being silent and still? Do you need a master to help you with that? No joke, and not trying to be awkward Kongming. Whatever practice you end up 'doing' if you persevere you will come back to silence and stillness You could save a lot of time by keeping to simplicity now rather than learning to un-learn later.

Good luck whatever you decide.

Enjoyed your reply Steve and your signature quote from Nisargadatta too. Thanks for sharing. Best wishes, Heath

To the Original Post; great question...the Tao though and TTC is definitely of these times;

I am a sales rep and definitely part of the rat race, this is how I deal with it...

I do my job. I don't think about it as a rat race; it is Life playing itself out...so I only respond in the moment. To harbour thoughts about it is not living spontaneously. In truth, no one is sucking up to the boss, no one is wanting out of the rat race; it is all the Tao expressing itself as Life.

Don't suck up to work people if that is not in your personality; as your ego and sense of injustice obscures how your expression of the Tao is. You are fine as you are, enjoy life playing itself out.

If you find your heart is not in the job, something will happen of itself.

To the original post:

The answer depends on how far down the rabbit hole you want to go. Ultimately, Taoism and Buddhism (among others) are trying to help us realise that we are not a 'we' and 'us' or an 'I"' we are That which is itself all that there is. This Thing we call Tao or Buddha-Self is untroubled as it has nothing to fear as there is nothing but itself...so fighting, anger, survival are actions of the ego.

The problem is this Namless Thing is not experiencing itself, it is simply Experience...so it does not know what it is. Consequently we cannot know what we are, only how we are and in experiencing enlightenment we realise there is nothing that enlightenment happens to and there is nothing that is deluded...there is only No-Thing and we are That.

Unless we have Awakened to the above Reality we think we will die; so our nature is to want to survive. Look to nature for your own answers; things are being killed every second of the day as food or by accident, or from fighting etc etc. Learning to defend yourself is a natural consequence of wanting to survive. So your martial art is natural and simultaneously contrived. It relies on your ego. Where the ego to die in the moment of Realisation you would be unlikely to continue your martial art.

When I die, all that has happened is the True-Self that was expressed as me, has now changed its expression but itself has remained unchanged.

To actually ask your question and to have it answered requires the experience of the ego. When we are as IT is, there is a kind of thoughtless awareness that is rooted in a great settled peace...we respond to what arises without contemplating it; so a person with a knife is LIFE simply arising and your running away from it is a reaction to that. Compassion is no different unless we think about it...it is a response to LIFE arising in however it appears at that time. Buddha, Tao, God - this ONE is LIFE. Life is water, trees, people, stones, space, dust, planets...all the face of a Single Unchanging Totality.

Do you want to go further down the rabbit hole? Then don't think about it

my mistake please delete this post

Nothing creates anything to be honest. You are IT and what you name is IT, if you name something does that make it any less IT - all is in the mind and thoughts...if you think it creates a schism then it will appear to do so but in fact nothing will have happened.

Worrying over names is just an idea. The quote from TTC is talking about our ideas only. We cannot be split as there is no 'we' and the Tao cannot be parted from itself

Not sure this helps at all!

This idea of Self-Enquiry is not something I have ever tried, I know for some people that it works. For me, the self-enquiry that works best is quietly watching the stillness of things and letting energy and the mind settle of themselves...at some point we begin to 'feel' a difference which is both 'Presence' on the inside and the outside; and perhaps in that moment our self as an individual 'boundary' disappears.

As Dwai says, there are lots of ways of Self-Enquiry. To the Original Poster, if you are attracted to the questioning style you may like to try Liberation Unleashed (LU); they will question you within an inch of your life. Ilona Ciunaite who is one of the women who started LU (with Elena Nezhinsky) is about as clear minded as anyone I've come across. Be prepared for an interrogation!

Hello Kongming, a great question. Not sure this will help but I can empathise with you;

I was searching for years trying to find a local Zen practice; eventually I joined a Thich Nhat Hanh group and later realised this is not 'Zen', I left and joined the British Taoist Association but their meetings are difficult to get to and when I did join them I felt they were a little controlled. I have friends who are Druids and I go and see them. Ultimately, I've made friends from each of those practices and I return just to see them. I set up my own Taoist group but even that doesn't fill the heart somehow.

Bearded Dragon's quote is true and an important point. What I have learned is that there may appear to be two things 'pushing' us into practice; the ego that wants to 'be' a Taoist, Buddhist, Druid, priest/monk etc or the heart that yearns for expression and deepening. To me, what the heart wants is not to be a Taoist but the Tao (which it is anyway) so if we need a practice it is to help that expression to fruition.

So my friend; turn your ear inwards and listen to what you love, what opens your heart and helps you sing...it will probably not be what you expect...try a few practices and see what fits. In the end, they all become much of a muchness; they are afterall trying to describe the same things.

Best of luck with it because I know how hard it can be to feel a 'fit' with something.

Heath

Just some quick points regarding this interesting post:

Silence does not necessarily mean a lack of noise; a blackbird singing is Silence, a noisy waterfall is Silence...what we may call I Am or Tao is being expressed as it is without the noise of thought disturbing it.

The Tao, God, I Am has no will to do anything for all outcomes are Itself; it is all just Life living itself out as a natural expression of what IT is. There are no preferences where there is only One.

In a way, what we are discussing is before silence, stillness and I Am...these are just human constructs. It is as it is and therefore appears still, silent, at peace - for there is nothing but itself to disturb itself.

'We' have nothing to do, nothing to be, or have something to evolve into; for 'we' are 'IT'; as we are, as it is. I am IT living as I. You are IT living as you. Space is IT being as space. No difference

Hey dc9; it all comes down to why you bought the book and what you hope to achieve. If you want to become an Immortal then these Qigong exercises and rotating your focus around the microcosmic orbit are unlikely to result in that (although you are The Immortal whether you practise from the book or sit on your backside all day; it makes no difference; only your 'knowing' or not changes).

To realise you are The Immortal is to come to understand 'you' does not exist, you are THAT which is Being and was never born and can never die - hence unchanging and immortal. If that is what you want; nearly all Taoist scriptures point to the value of Silence and Stillness as a practice. Filling your day with tranquillity will have a natural beneficial affect on your energy levels too.

One of the ways of Realisation is that a feeling of Presence forms below the solar plexus/stomach/abdomen area, which can occur when one settles. I believe that all this microcosmic orbit and inner focus stems from someone's explanation of what occurred to feel Presence and it has been broken down and become a method. Where you to suddenly Awaken, you would see that all these ideas are centred on the belief there is an individual that needs energy.

If you want to learn energy practices you really ought to find a teacher because you can be doing as much harm as good. Your eagerness to get to the heart of advanced practices will become a problem; you need to stabilise yourself and get a grounding for your body has to catch up with the change in approach to energy and you need time to feel what is going on; it is a subtle thing and cannot be experienced in a ham-fisted manner.

Take your time, give yourself chance. The Taoist way is that of ease, simplicity and openness.

Best of luck.

To 4bsolute...there are many ways of Self-Enquiry...Ramana also thought silence was useful but as you brought up the "who am I?" question we'll go with that...

Firstly, whether your eyes are open or not makes no difference. Ultimately, the "I" you are seeking to understand is both behind your eyes and before them - all appearances are of the One. When an answer comes it is a lie...so "Who am I?" answers "me" which is a lie and if you wish to adopt this method you should keep asking "What is this 'me'; where is 'me'; if you are me, what is asking the question and what is answering?"...and so on. It should be approached in a manner that you have someone tied to a chair who knows the whereabouts of a loved one and unless you get the answer they will die...it is that important, that serious.

What you are doing is accepting the first answer you are receiving and trusting it to be true. You must approach it so that every answer received is believed to be a lie; central to this method is that at some point an answer will not come...because 'you' do not know what you are, so you cannot answer. The true-answer comes through silence; the ego-self, the thinking mind having given up and realising it cannot locate itself. This is how it realises its self-belief is wrong.

You are in fact using the intellect to ask the question and expecting the intellect to be able to answer but IT DOES NOT KNOW. IT CANNOT ANSWER YOU CORRECTLY. So you must keep pressing until that point is reached.

The strange thing is, is THAT which is, does not know either (otherwise you would know, for you are THAT)...it is just being expressed as IT is, without thought of what it is. So what goes in search of itself is not IT, it only occurs from the position of understanding that one must come to know. In the moment of Realisation you would come to understand there is no 'you', that everything around is YOU; therefore there is no one who knows and no one who does not; there is no one, only One. What names it One, is Itself.

Hello Woodcarver,

If you want scripture see Wen Tzu V135 "The space between heaven and earth is the body of one being; all within the universe is the form of one being...Sages know the remote by the way of the near, considering myriad miles one and the same."

So...all being One, Woodcarver and Wayfarer is the same IT, so why can I not read your thoughts if I am you? We are the same in the space of no-thoughts. The thoughts are in essence the delusion. Yet, where there is One there cannot be understanding and misunderstanding - one thing cannot simultaneously know and not-know; so to think about reading the thoughts of another is to first believe there is a 'you' and 'another'; one whose thoughts are different and therefore worth reading.

It is in our not-thought that we realise That which 'we' is.

Hope that helps a little!

Thank you everyone for some very interesting reads over the recent years. I have decided to focus on my Druidry rather than Taoism as it is good for me on a practical simple-living level, so I won't be returning to the Tao Bums.

The group I started in Warwickshire is going to continue as a meditation group without being tied to any specific religion, in case anyone was considering coming. It will still practise Qigong and the like.

So blessings to you all and best wishes,

Heath

For me it would have to be Zhan Zhuang standing pole exercises supported by Mark Cohen's great book "Inside Zhan Zhuang" - I have practised Wing Chun along with Aikido - If you are happy with your art Yi gong - working with intent and sensitivity, without the martial element of Yi Quan could help. But for me it would be ZZ everytime

Great points, well made everyone. Totally agree. To be conscious of Consciousness is slightly different than just 'being' Consciousness without awareness of it - this is when the observer dies. And yes, in my experience no-thought can and does occur - and that's where I'm going when I've stopped typing this!

Hi Roger,

Yes, however belief and experience are a little like the gap between explaining something you cannot see and seeing something you cannot explain. So in a sense the THING is the form and the consciousness but if we think in terms of form and consciousness we place ourselves "outside the box" so to speak. The best I can explain it is as follows:

That which is without shape finds its form in all things. When that which is without shape is noticed all things lose their form.

Heath

Not sure if this will help...the best way I can explain it will seem like a type of evolution but it's not.

FIRST STAGE: We have an infant before he or she becomes aware of their self. According to scientists, the test is to put a spot on the forehead of a toddler, put them before a mirror and if they notice the spot should not be there it proves self awareness. Ten animals have also been proved to show self-awareness. Up until this stage an infant has an awareness and the environment around him or her is as though nothing stands out - its all a Something that goes mostly unnoticed until their consciousness becomes greater.

SECOND STAGE: We grow aware of self and not-self. We learn to like something but not others and we spend much of our life in one way or other trying to meet the needs of this self, even if that entails helping others. Most of us don't get any further.

THIRD STAGE: Is a person who has awakened to SELF or to not-self. They either notice Suchness Presence, suddenly get 'it' from a flash of inspiration e.g. a Koan, or teacher or they realise they cannot locate a self. Various triggers create slightly different experiences of awakening for instance, one might become as trapped in the idea of SELF as they once were of self. Those of a spiritual interest are in second stage, looking towards the third. Yet, here we still have a thought of holiness or selflessness, or emptiness. While we might know Oneness and the object and subject being the same ITness there is still thinking about it, which is not the 'pure state'.

FOURTH STAGE: Is a person who has gone beyond thinking about it as they have come to realise that such thoughts distance themselves somehow from the purity of the experience of non-experience. The practice of no-thought can lead to this without having 'awoken'. So the world is not seen with distinct objects however such objects are noticed or else they would be bumped into all the time. Whereas a person at the third stage might think; this tree is Suchness as is that cloud and therefore both are the same; a person in this stage would not think of anything while looking at a cloud. They would be carefree and to some degree thought-free until someone engages with them cognitively. So this is most like the first stage and yet there is subtle difference.

Ultimately, these experiences that lead through the various stages are not because we notice our world is created by our mind; it is there whether or not we think. Emptiness and fullness is the same thing. God and not-God is the same thing; so how can there be one or the other? So the original post...For Harrison Ford (Truth) to realise Han Solo (self) is not his true-self he would also lose the idea of there being a Truth. So when what is witnessed is realised as being the same as what witnesses; from that point on there is no thought of either object or subject.

If you just stop thinking for a moment, what remains is what is always present, without an idea of their being presence? If we don't think, there can be no ideas