Wayfarer

This is how I see it...

Once the brain is dead there is no consciousness or awareness - there is nothing aware of something. This does not mean that their is nothing at all. There is the Root as described in V16 of DDJ. Yet when it says "returning" there is no returning because we never leave the Root, for there is not a "we" there is only the Root - or Dao.

So, the Dao is simultaneously aware and unaware, conscious and unconcious.  It is both opposites, at the same time because they are expression of its energy - they are "traces" of the "Root" (see Chongxuandao.com). So, when "we" die, we are a trace that ends, an expression that stops - in the same way that a smile ends when we stop smiling, what that smile belonged to remains the same.

So, to speak in terms of consciousness or not is to be focussing on the trace and not the root - which V16 tells us is never changing, always still, yet vibrant - the "things" we see are ITself but we overlook the non-expression, the no-thing that is something, the vibrant that is still, the aware unconsciousness. 

This is what Chuang Tsu described as the Dao of Middle-Oneness "at the still centre of Dao, all things can be seen" - something like that. So the answer to the OP, is all things, all possibilities, we cannot in truth say one OR the other as it is both . 

www.chongxuandao.com

The OP is like a trick question.  You are in effect asking people how you can become what you already are.  The fact you haven't realised this already does not change anything.  Emptiness and fullness is the same no-thing.  Daoists speak of no-thingness.  

So, for instance, I read on an earlier post "you are not the body", "you are not the mind" then if you are not this, there is duality.  If you think you are this and not something else, there is duality.

You are That which is non-dual.  The Nameless Dao is both Empty and Full, it is both mind and body, not-mind and not-body.  The Middle Way of Buddhism is the Dao of Middle Oneness - both thoughts of emptiness and fullness are forgotten (as they are extremes) both body and not-body is forgotten, as they are extremes.

You are like a man making lots of effort because you wish to be a man however you are one already; one day, you will Realise and laugh at all the effort to become what you were already.  So, how to realise?  Stillness, letting thoughts drift away without attention to them, watching life without attentively observing it and when a thought of one extreme or another comes, let it go.

Read the first three lessons here from Chongxuan Dao:

https://chongxuandao.com/teachings-one/

Each are their own areas of study. I've had many friends who used to think that Christianity was a pile of rubbish and that science could answer all the questions.

 

Now, I'm not Christian, but I have a natural instinct to stand up to any opinion that is held strongly. It's not that I always disagree with that opinion, I just feel it's right to put forward the other argument.

 

So -

 

If I want to understand and calculate the trajectory of a projectile, I don't go to the bible to help me.

 

If I want help and advice in dealing with someone whom I feel has wronged me, I don't go to a Physics book.

 

 

There is actually a book called the 'Tao of Physics' by Fritjof Capra that does a good job of comparing modern Physics with ancient spirituality, and there is a large overlap.

They are nowhere near understanding Lao Tzu because in a Taoist sense they are focussing on the "traces" while overlooking the "root".  Lao Tsu and the DDJ is describing the nameless mystery which he named Tao (the root) and that its energies are forming expressions which we take for "this and that" (traces).

For example Quantum Physics will show that a particle can be in two places at once.  Taoism explains there is not-two.  There is not even one, there is no-thingness.   Scientists are like hungry people who are busy eating the garnish while missing the main meal.  Doesn't mean they never have anything interesting to say but they won't find the answer to the beginning of the universe and the meaning of life because there was no beginning and there is no meaning

I haven't read all of your post however you may wish to think of it like this...

One school's approach is the Dao expressing itself in that particular way, at that particular moment.

Another school's approach is the Dao manifesting itself in that specific way, at that specific moment.

Both are the Dao.

Therefore what appears right is the Dao and what appears wrong is also the Dao.

Don't worry about it.  You're not here to worry

Read the Gospel of St Thomas and you can answer it for yourself

Hi everyone, I would like to know which forms of spiritual cultivation exist aside from the Buddha Dharma practices to transform or negate negative karma? How do they achieve this? It has been explained to me that the Shaolin arts enable karma to be transformed, something which somewhat changed my point of view regarding the martial arts practiced by the Shaolin, so now I am wondering whether the Taoist martial practices are able to act in a similar way, or whether another method is used to reach the same end?

 

David

You need to first understand Buddhism I'm afraid.  The Buddha said that he who is awake steps from the wheel of cause and effect and ends karma.  You should look at this and question what is actually happening and why karma is ending at the point of enlightenment.  The answer to your question can be found here.

The Shaolin Temple hasn't a clue about ending karma.  If it says that it does, it already doesn't understand karma.

If there is no-self, what is karma attached to?  

There is nothing for you to "do" to reach "the same end".  You are already at the end, you just don't realise it.

Quantum Physicists are nowhere near understanding what Lao Tzu was saying.

I meant to say that the people who were visited by Lao Tsu, were actually claiming that he visited them spiritually, centuries after he had died. This happened quite a lot apparently.

Hi Ormus,

No lineage as Chongxuan has never had a lineage or been part of a temple/school culture.  No I'm not initiated or ordained.  I'm interested in the Dao and not Daoism really however the Twofold Mystery school seemed to focus on elements that I feel are important to Daoism.  It indicates a period in Daoist history where much thought was given to the meaning of the first two Daoist classics and in the meaning of being and non-being.

Much of Daoism in China did not rely on a lineage, for example there were people who became very influential by claiming that they had been visited by Lao Tsu of the DDJ and given wisdom, or, he communicated through them.  Also Wang Chongyang began Quanzhen Daoism and each of his seven followers started their own schools - note Qiu Chuji founder of Longmen tradition which survives to this date.  Even the Zhengyi tradition, which claims direct lineage back to 2nd C CE and sometimes to Lao Tsu himself had its lineage broken up for many years with all the turmoil going on throughout Chinese history.  So we may hold value in lineages and schools but there is no need to.  Look out at the world, there is the Dao.

I wanted to introduce Chongxuan to "Western" Daoists as it is very philosophical and is rooted in DDJ and Chuang Tsu.  It also leads to the Truth as far as I see it, and does not conceal that with lots of information about alchemy or ruling a country etc.  So I think it has its place in modern times

Ta.

Hi all,

I have begun a mini-revival of the Twofold Mystery (Chongxuan) Daoism as I feel it is relevant to us today, particularly to those who think of Daoism philosophically.  It relates to Daoist thought of around 5th to 8th century CE.  I have created a website highlighting the key teachings and a Daily Practice page based on those teachings.  Hope you like it.

Here is part of the introduction page and my reasons for doing it...https://chongxuandao.com/

The Chongxuan approach was not a school or a monastic practice but a particular lens through which people viewed and debated the meanings central to Daoism of mainly the 5th to the 8th century CE. I have chosen to make a mini-revival of Chongxuan thinking for two reasons; firstly, for those who have practised Daoism for many years in the West, it will not have escaped their notice that among our own scholars there is the belief that our idea of a philosophical Daoism is quite laughable.  To me, this is an incorrect view and I believe that readers unfamiliar with the Chongxuan approach (which seems to me to be out of the current Daoist limelight), will find here a way that fits very much in line with Western thinking.  So my first reason is to broaden the appeal of the Twofold Mystery approach by making it more accessible and in doing so, I feel the time is right to extend the original arguments which I do through a commentary at the end of each claim or statement.

The second reason is that I see for some practitioners there is the need to connect their daily cultivation to the thinking and practices of the ancients in a more meaningful way but without committing to ordination or aligning somehow with a specific lineage.  By following the Chongxuan way the reader is able to connect with an authentic “school of thinking” which draws directly from the DDJ and Chuang Tsu, while developing his or her current practice and understanding .  I offer a Daily Practice section aligned with the Chongxuan teachings to show the reader the simple ways of experiencing such ideas for his or herself.

To the OP...

Yes I had significant results without knowing anything about Taoist alchemy.  What the "alchemists" are describing is something that occurs naturally but they are making it damn complicated.  If you play golf, it is a little like over-analysing your swing...you are better leaving the conscious thought out of it and just letting it happen...if you begin to go through the process in your head, you never hit the ball cleanly.  It is the same here.

Simply put, what happens is when you become calm on a regular basis but in a way that is not a "doing" such as how meditation can be, and if you can experience a certain amount of absentmindedness there is a sense that "something" is settling into the lower belly area, as though a cavity is being filled between the heart and groin area.  It is possible to then notice a presence here...an endless "something" that is completely still and undisturbed.  Shortly after I noticed this, I happened to glance at the sky and saw / felt the same presence there and I instantly knew Oneness...that my self-identity died in that moment, to realise I am That which neither came into being or will go out of being.  This is realising immortality.  That you are immortal anyway.  Ultimately, there is no attaining of the Tao and know enlightenment as there is nothing to experience the attaining of anything.  Here lies the beauty.

So in answer to your original question, my advice is to not read books but to trust your own knowing.  Which book did Lao Tsu need to read?  If you analyse what you are doing and bring it into your conscious thinking, you are exercising the very thing that is getting in the way of your realisation; your mind.

Good luck.

Is there two "Wayfarers" at DB as I don't remember writing those comments???

Few Chinese understand Laozi

This is actually a tricky thing to answer because it depends what you mean.  To my knowledge there are two meanings to being a Taoist Immortal...one relates to energy practices so that you grow very old and the other is the realisation that you are That which does not die...which can also have something to do with energy, in that when it settles, the presence of True-Self can be realised.

If you want the first there are two books I recommend below...the Thomas Cleary one also relates to the True-Self realisation, otherwise, TTC, Chuang Tsu, Huai Nan Tsu and the Louis Komjathy collection.   

I think from what you said you will like this, I bought it but to be honest I cannot bear to read the book:

https://www.amazon.com/Taoist-Yoga-Kuan-Charles-Luk/dp/0877280673

This one is great however:

https://www.amazon.com/Vitality-Energy-Spirit-Sourcebook-Shambhala/dp/1590306880/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1476124607&sr=1-1&keywords=thomas+cleary+energy+vitality

Hello A, 

Glad you got the book, you should show Jacob your message I think he would be very pleased.  Oh, I also accept Taoist Capitalist poetry lol.

H

...apologies...just read that you said "what to do next in my life" and not "what to do next in my life"...I don't know how to edit my post, but I think I answered this question already.  If you want to understand the heart of these religious teachings you should focus on the elements of them that you do not understand.  They speak only of what is natural.  So the answers are within you and in the natural world around you.  Perhaps you could try to understand through nature, that is what you could do next, if you wish to answer your original question.

To Shad282, answers in bold

You said "so what am i supposed to do with my life? Nothing, life is living "as" you, if you try to do something instead of letting it being done you are in a sense severing the flow of what is unfolding naturally...therefore making life difficult for yourself.  Ask yourself why you find it hard that there is nothing to do?  Why must there be something to do?  Where is the do-er in a buttercup?  Where is the do-er in your heartbeat?  Why must you do?  Answer yourself, not me.

"if there is no reason or purpose for such a form to exist what am i here to accomplish?" why do you think there is something to accomplish, why can you not be happy with life, existence as it already is, what must be better?  You are on a web forum which focuses on Taoist, Zen and Non-Duality principles; that of there being No-Thing, Emptiness, One.  If this is true, how can the Only One better itself?  How can emptiness be improved.  How can No-Thing be added to?  If you want to understand your religious practice more but cannot answer these questions, then this is where you should focus because they are central to it. 

what to do next in my life? You do not have a next life.  'You' IS Life.  You are That which is All.  There is nothing to do in this life but already you are worried about what to do in the next?  Following your logic, can you remember what you did in your last life?  

try to live the no reason i was born into? No trying involved, who said anything about trying?  Does a cat have to try to be a cat?  Does a sparrow have to try to be itself?  Why are you different?

why do i then need to continue living if i have nothing to do here in this world/reality?"  You don't need to continue living.  There is no need.  There is no need to die either.  Why do you keep thinking you have a need?  Let go of the need...then you might start to notice the ease and peace that is present within that ultimately leads to a position of no thought of anything, no sense of "me" doing this or an "other" which is having something done to it.  There is no reason.  You won't believe it for one simple reason:

You are content to listen to your thoughts and not to listen to the space in which they appear and from which they leave.  Try it for yourself.  And answer your own questions

That's a very circular argument. I cannot know what Lao Tsu or Buddha knew as their philosophies are written by others. Perhaps they weren't Mystics, but certainly most of their followers are. Yes in a way that is true, but in the reality that is being described by LT and B there is no self and there is no other...therefore what awakens to reality and what is deluded from it, is the same One.

 

A mystic in the spiritual tradition believes that it is their feelings/intuition/revelation/inner knowing/heart which is their guide to reality.  A mystic in the traditional sense is one who believes they have had an insight into the Truth and they share that wisdom with others.  It is not something that relies on intuition or feelings, or a conventional wisdom...it actually causes the dropping away of those.  It is a little like my going around stating I want to become a man, when I am one already but no one can convince me of that...then suddenly one day I discover I am that already and all the effort was a waste, in that no matter what I tried, I could not be other than what I am.  The Mystic is the person who experiences the Truth of what they are an in that moment experiences the death of what they thought they were.  Hence in the Bible it says, a man cannot look onto the face of God without dying.  It is the self that dies.

 

The muscle mystic rejects that man can know reality in any sense, that we are a collection of squirting glands-or in the more modern sense part of some quantum illusion.  No we are not a collection of squirting glands.  We BELIEVE that is what we are.  To awaken is to realise that the truth of what we are is that we are also everything we thought we were not...the 'other' and the 'self' is the same No-Thing.  The fact that this is not known, doesn't mean that it isn't so.  However, if we look at rational evidence, we cannot find anything to support that....however what looks and what is looked at is the Same.

 

I don't know if you ascribe to either of these views, or if LT or Buddah did, but their followers do.  People who follow, may not even be interested in the Truth, they may just want a little more peace at difficult times in their lives....as you know I'm sure.   I have experienced this for myself Karl, and I can only say that the conscious thinking mind, the intuition, feelings, thoughts etc have nothing to do with it.   

 

When one begins to question what it is that a thought arrives into, and what it leaves behind when it goes...how that is, there is a look into the right direction.  The reason we cannot see it as such, it because it is already that which we are looking at and we are that in itself.  Nice huh?

Of course I can, your reply is proof. The spirit of man is his mind, it is what he thinks. All proof is related to reality and you have typed your thoughts onto a page for me to read.

 

A mystic has no proof because he lives in a world of floating abstractions unrelated to reality.

 

The more you type, the greater the proof of my premise becomes. It's a vast heap of evidence that can't be swept under the carpet.

Actually Karl a Mystic does not live in a world of floating abstractions - that is what a normal unawakened person does.  The Mystic understands Reality and is therefore not mystical.  It is regular society that describes it as mystical but it is natural.

Lao Tsu and Buddha were not mystics.  They understood Reality.  People generally did not understand them, so they were called mystics

To Shad282,

The answer to your original question is that there is no purpose to anything, there is no reason for the existence of the Tao.  In the same way, we might ask, what is the purpose of a dandelion, or the purpose of rain...these things just are.  It is the way that you are looking at life (in I'm afraid, a deluded way...as is much of mankind) that brings about this question.

There is this thing that we are calling the Tao.  It is the only thing that exists.  It is Existence.  There is nothing else.  It cannot move anywhere for there is nothing beyond it to move into, and this is one of the reasons that we notice it through stillness.  

What we see as different things is the vibrant energy of the Tao manifesting in this way.  The dandelion is the Tao appearing as a flower and rain is the Tao expressed as rain.   It is all Tao.  You who are asking the question and the people you are asking it too are the same Tao.  There is no difference.  It may seem that there is lots of change going on but that is because we are caught up in that difference and then we ask why is 'this' happening, and what is the reason for 'that'.

There is no this or that.

It is One thing flowering, unfolding as it is.  It does not choose to do so in a particular way, it just does.  So nothing is 'raining' rain.  Nothing is 'flowering' the dandelion.  The same nothing is replying to you now.

Being that there is only One Thing...what can it want?  What reason can it have for being? 

Hope this helps.

Heath

Hi folks,

Hope you like it!

http://issuu.com/clo..._two_autumn_win

Oh I'm glad you like it and the sense of nature.  I've sent you a PM with Jacob's poetry book details.  Also, I think if you register on Allpoetry.com that this also registers you for Lulu.com however it has been ten years or so since I last went to that site so I could easily be wrong.  

Best wishes,

Heath

Hi folks,

Hope you like it!

http://issuu.com/cloudwanderer/docs/cloud_wanderer_issue_two_autumn_win

To the OP:

Daoism has lost its way in my view and is doing things backwards, and this is why it seems to be over-complicated, here are some examples:

Cycling of the Waterwheel is a practice that breaks things down to very precise energetic positions e.g. draw energy up the spine to the Jade Pillow (back of head), take it through the brain, the Bright Hall, the Red Chamber, Earth Pot and so on to the Celestial Eye, breathe it along the Magpie Bridge (nose) and down blah blah blah until the spirit (dragon) and energy (tiger) copulate and form the Jade Child/ clean out the Lodging Place.  All very nice.  This is a little like describing how to drive a car to somebody with one key difference...you explain what the pedals do, the gear lever, the steering and so on however were it a completely natural process all that would be happening would be that an 'expert' would break down the systemic whole into specific parts, to explain what happens naturally.  With the waterwheel practice, all that happens is when we become settled, when our energy relaxes and our thinking stops, there is as a natural consequence a settling feeling and a letting go, until one day, if you are lucky, you will notice a presence there (described in the TTC V16, which is also a verse about the Waterwheel.  So, you can forget about Red Chambers and dragons, and just sit tranquilly allowing things to settle naturally.

Zuowang sitting meditation: or sitting and forgetting.  How can we ever forget that we are sitting if we are focussing on our breath, regulating its rhythm, concentrating on a particular spot, sitting on our favourite cushion until our feet get numb and then trying to forget.  As Doyan said, when sitting why not meditate, when meditating why not sit?  As above, allow tranquility into your day, let your energy and mind settle naturally, then it won't matter if you are sitting or standing, you will be meditating.

Finally, all this talk of attaining the Tao and not being able to attain it!  How confusing.  Again we are talking about a natural process.  A naturalness that is our Truth.  How could the Truth, if it is relevant to all things be complicated?  Of course it is simple.  When we are ignorant of our Truth (as an experience) we 'do', we practise until we think we are getting closer to knowing and experiencing it but we are already IT, it is like trying to practise to be a man, when you are one already but don't realise it, it is simply a matter of waking up to that fact.  To wake up to this fact, you need to bring stillness and calm into your day...again refer to V16 of the TTC or Be Still and Know that I am God...the Psalms.  The more settled you are, the more likely you will notice the presence within and around you, and see its endless stillness.  If you are filling your mind with Tigers, with sitting methods, with words how will you ever observe the endless calm within?

If you want to practise Tao (not Taoism) watch nature, notice the quietness, the calm, the stillness that is present, this is the open door to Presence, but a tree is Presence, a bird, a car...it is everywhere you are looking.  You see it already but don't recognise it.

When tranquility is in your 'now' there is no practice.  There is no sitting meditation, no waterwheel to cycle, no scripture to read...the only practice you need is to allow calmness into your now...then your energy settles naturally, your mind becomes less full, and ease enters your life as a flow.

Beautiful and simple huh?  Your intuition is right...let it be your teacher