flowing hands

I remember this chapter/verse/writings all those years ago and Li Erh saying to me of other translations, " where did they get this from?" (he said this quite a lot actually) This verse is about how incredibly vast and interconnected the Dao is. If you feel you know something about the Dao it will kick you awake and let you know that you actually don't know anything, it is so vast. We go back to Dao xin "look with your heart" Daoist cultivation techniques known only to very few. "See its form in the glare" ie in some lights we can actually see energy as well as feel it. "Be at one with the dust of the Earth, simplify your nature" Again referring to self cultivation techniques. "Ever present, hidden in the depths of the myriad things" He is telling us where to look again, how we can source and cultivate. Remember I started the thread about the DDJ being a shamanistic treatise, not in the modern sense of what people think of shamanism, but in the sense that the verses are about looking at the world from the heart and seeing the processes that are involved which is all about energy and matter and the inter-relationship between both. There lies the heart of the Dao.

My only comment is they all don't make any sense!

Lao Tzu was a great Immortal before he incarnated 2,500 years ago. Now such a person with the spirit of an Immortal in a mortal body will already have 'Dao in their heart'. Their life would lead them to the Dao and its teachings and once more they will become realized. As to his mother teaching him, sure she would have known something about the Dao as it was prominent in the society he lived in but as I once said he told me as a young man he sought a teacher and there he was taught and all that he had in his heart was realised.

The three treasures are these; Mercy economy being at one with the dao/knowledge of Dao

The main reason why I wanted to start this thread is to highlight that there is enormous difficulty in firstly the varying translations, the translators background and their own perspectives and of course our own understanding of those words. This is very important. We must remember that Lao Tzu was on his 'Xian Dao' path; his understanding was that of an enlightened person. He said many things from his own perspective and this perspective was from his understanding of Dao xin and the processes involved. If a translation does not come from this very special perspective and that the characters/pictograms are not the same as the original or shortened by copyists, we already have a massive misunderstanding conveyed to be misunderstood by others who then read them. This is a great problem which I aimed to relieve to some extent.

It means a supreme path, a path that a God takes, a godlike perspective that we can really not understand. The way an Immortal has become Immortal and those processes that have led to that.

Hi Yueya I do not 'channel' that's for new age mediums who give séances for their friends. Nor am I a tang ki, the modern word that incorporates a multiple array of people who do all sorts of things in Chinese temples. I am a traditional shaman taught in the traditional way, completely by the Immortal masters and not affected by any outside cultural influences or inferences that one might encounter in places like Malaysia. The Immortal masters are people just like you and I but they are now living in energy form although they can be physical form if they like. So how do I know that I am taught by Lao Shi as opposed to any other spirit master? Because they can come physically and what he has taught me all those years ago, I have begun to understand far more deeply and why he said those things. When he first taught me each verse I only had some understanding, but as I have been taught more and more and practiced more and more and after 30 years those verses now hold their true meanings. I said in a post to Dawei that to fully understand the meanings of some of the verses one had to be in the processes and for the last thirty years since I was taught those verses I have been in that process. To be honest some of the verses he taught me he wanted to change completely from anywhere near what has been received through manuscripts. He wanted it to be accessible to modern peoples. It wasn't till some years ago that he told me he had written many more verses and that he would teach me some of them, which he has. So as I have said the Dao is for the past, for the present and for the future, therefore it remains eternal. Traditional Daoism is of the feminine, most perspectives are of the masculine, Lao Tzu addresses the world and uses the masculine, (he) so that his words are taken seriously by others who are less understanding. So his words are valued even though they are of the feminine. Remember Lao Tzu is a great Immortal and that when he was last mortal when he wrote down his teachings he was a incarnate Immortal. He had already in his heart the Dao before anyone taught him anything. Christians will see God everywhere and in the DDJ and translate it with their perspective. The Christian viewpoint affects everything even though we may not know it or realize it and it is very masculine. So although Lao Tzu has used mostly 'he' in my version, he actually said to me that it had been translated so many times using the masculine that my version to gain any acceptance would have to be used as 'he' to describe a sage etc. because of the overriding Christian influence of treating women as second class citizens and men came first.

Hi Yueya Don't take this as an insult, but you show me that you have very little experience and understanding about what you are talking about. I am a blessed and accepted Holyman, I didn't pay £200 and get some mumbo jumbo in return. I went to a temple in Malaysia of my own volition when I was young, because it was my time and like all genuine shamans, as a child I could see sky people in the sky. I knelt down on my knees at that temple, I didn't even know the proper names of those Immortals, nor the prayer and within twenty minutes of me begging the Immortal master came. I had no idea of what to expect I was from a different country and culture, but I had a great belief and longing in my heart that had been with me since I was very small. So the Immortal Master came so powerfully that the brush that I was holding flew across the temple and it was another Holyman who was there, who raced across the floor and picked it up and put it back into my hand to finish off the talisman. Once I had finished the holy water and given my thanks. This other holyman said to me he had never seen someone accepted so quickly and powerfully in all his life. He was truly shocked. This temple was an open eye and blessed temple that still happily sits in Malacca. No false spirit would ever come near the place.To judge what I say and where it comes from you certainly must be an expert, far more qualified than I. Given this, I have much doubt to your qualification to judge who is my teacher or not. Remember the Dao is for the past for the present and for the future. In this way it remains eternal.

In answer to this, I would say leave any commentary out, it is someone else's opinion who is on the whole not qualified to make commentaries. The Dao has no boundaries, cultural, perspective or otherwise, it is the same in all cultures and can be found in all cultures. It is the lack of proper translation and understanding of the original text that is the problem more than words. Words can be found to describe things in all languages. We have then a problem that we do not have the original text, nor in its entirety. My transmission was the reason I was taught it. Having been taught the techniques and practices that Li Erh's words are based on, I was then given a true understanding of what he wanted to say. Jesus wasn't around until 600 years later and he was probably not heard of for many hundreds of years in those parts after he died. Where Li Erh lived I doubt very much whether the old testament and its stories really had any bearing on a very sound and ancient culture that had existed for many thousands of years, even if they had heard of it. Li Erh was not fond of Confucius and his moralistic opinions, so I don't think he would have any truck with stories from the old testament, even if he had heard them.

The Dao De Jhing was written approximately 615 BCE. Li Erh was part of a deeply rooted shamanistic cultural. His writings are not philosophy but reflections on a belief system and observations that encompassed all things. The roots of many culture's beliefs still today, like the Lappish race in northern Europe, are steeped in shamanistic culture. IMO if we are to understand and fully appreciate this monumental work, we have to first stand from a different position, a position that rarely is seen from the west and when it is, western overtones are then frequently applied to the understanding. Christian over tones and conditioning's frequently get in the way, from Christian based societies. Here is the basis of discussion; is the DDJ shamanistic or philosophic add your opinion and why?

The second writing of Li Erh, or shall we say where it was placed by the gatekeeper. Understanding of the way comes from our observation. Wu Wei is an active act to take no action or interference in the way all things go together. It does not mean that one never acts, it means that when one is wise enough to see the ten thousand things rise, integrate and fall naturally, then there is no need to act. It is about understanding this process and what is right, is with the way and what is against the way. A Sage of course does have to act when things are not in balance and the processes are being lost. In modern time we have to act a lot of the time, because as a species we are setting up so many imbalances because people don't know the way nor do they care. The processes which are the way are ever evolving and reproducing; working with the way, if it is natural, requires no acknowledgement even though this work sustains and its processes go on and on.

Now I've got to say, a Daoist master understands things in a different way because of the processes and techniques that they have been taught, especially if it comes from the divine. Understanding of the words of Lei Erh comes directly in this process. How to teach someone else an understanding is difficult without them first going through those processes. It is very easy to say words, but real meaning of those words are within the processes and then it is understood. One cannot really understand the words of Lei Erh until one has gone through this, otherwise it is just words and philosophy, as it so misunderstood by non Daoist masters translations. In the end it all comes to the same thing, most religions hide all the true meaning and understanding in 'God' etc. etc. Or they are simply money making control freaks. My point is easy; get yourself into the process, into the the way of self cultivation and one day true understanding will dawn on that person, because it is their time. I could talk about the processes, describe Dao xin till I was exhuasted, but if it has not yet been realized, its a waste of time.

Well, Li Erh must have learnt about Dao from somewhere. He was surrounded by a deeply held shamanistic culture. If we examine the texts and the further verses, it is all about our perception and how we can cultivate the Dao within ourselves and recognise it all around us. He talks very much about the 'gateway', that being the portal between mortal and spirit and of when the body dies that the spirit can live on if it has been cultivated. He talks very much about deep mystery and altering our perception through self cultivation and alchemy. This is certainly not a dry old philosophical book, but a book that deals with many aspects of the Dao, but very much from a perspective that the spirit and matter are one and at the same time separate and the interplay between the two is very much what life and the Dao is all about. So in essence a spirited book with many lost meanings on many folks out there, who have only access to dry old untrained translators who do not know about the true techniques of self cultivation and internal alchemy, so they miss the whole point and the real meanings. It is very much a book about shamanism, not in the crude and misconceived way that it is presented by many. It is about the whole way of perception, of spirit, the self and knowing how things have come together and depend on each other. It is about understanding the way and a true shaman/ness will be closer to that than ordinary folks. That's why most Immortals were shamans before they became Immortals. It is the greatest book on true and pure shamanism ever written.

As this is a different thread let me give you my thoughts on the first verse as it was put there. When one wants to describe how the world is and how it is going about its processes, it is impossible to describe this ever evolving process. But it has a fundamental core that drives all things that is known and not known. we can only feel by using our hearts, the one thing that drives all of us and that which has made us. We can see the very thing that this has created. Emptying the mind and purifying the soul will allow us to understand the deep mystery. The source of all life dwells within; it is manifest and empty, a true path to unlock the mysteries of life. This chapter is eluding to internal alchemy and self cultivation

I think if we put up the verses here and then use the thread I started to interpret each chapter

I am personally interested in perspectives and how we all read into things differing meanings according to our experience etc. So I am interested in seeing what people see in the same lines of each translator.

Ok so shall we use Feng/English James legge D C Lau Bill Porter Hendricks Any objections or others people want then just say.

I think MH my transmission had been out in many copies around the world before Bill Porter did his bit.

What I would like to do is to look at the major translations on each verse, so we limit the amount of carnage. Take each part of it and then as many people as possible give what they think this part means to them. We will not use my version but only translations so please put now suggestions of say five translations that are well known and I think we can start from there. We can bracket what we are trying to express about each part so the results are more analytical at the end. Suggestions for these points please. I think it will show us some interesting things if enough people participate.

That is exactly how it will be interesting and how it will show each contributor how different we view things even using and reading the same words. We don't have to disagree we merely have to state what we see or know about each line/s. I think it will be a useful exercise.

CT said of Flowing Hands amongst other comments this: "There is nothing elite about what you have shown here, self-proclaimed one. I think you are living a fantasy, and want to suck in gullible westerners to partake of your delusion, and somehow have got dawei to act as your promoter. In case you are wondering why i am on your back -- well, to put it simply, i dont like to see people being fraudulently led to believe that these sorts of displays are any legitimate indication of spiritual prowess -- its not. People like you, shamsters i call them, are a dime a dozen in Malaysia and all over Asia, so wake up to the fact that there are indeed non-westerners here on TTB who can see through your game." I do not live in Malaysia and visitors to the Temple must be genuine and able to conduct themselves in a manner that is appropriate. You cannot visit with all this hanging like a dark cloud over your head and affecting your karma and your energy. You would not be welcome in the house of my Masters, nor in the House of any other Immortal Master.

Its a shame CT that you spent some time in South East Asia and yet to the experienced practitioner you are as niave as if you had never been there. You talk about being gullible, you should look at your self being being too critical of that which you have not experienced or fully understood. Self improvement is a wonderful thing in words but in reality it never happens its too challenging for even the strongest of people. Become a Buddha? Yes in a million years perhaps, so don't slight the Immortals who come to teach devoted ordinary people who use their time and energy to help others. A 'fa fu' is a written command to the primary forces of nature which all living things are made of. It can be a formal character with drawings, (like in the Daoist Cannon) or it can be a free hand 'picture' with a spell uttered as it is drawn. Either way the Immortal that draws it, is giving a command to act on those forces and alter them. Fa Shui can be drawn in a similar fashion and the yin and yang amulets taken with the Holy water. Sure there are charlatans in all sects of spirituality, major religions are just businesses and it was once said, 'if you want to get rich start a religion', but one has to be a practitioner of esoteric practices to understand what these things are. In Buddhism, we hear of many so called masters using their position to abuse others. Of course there are no true teachings of Buddhism, it is all anecdotal, Buddha never wrote down his teachings in his own hand. So Ct I suffered some abuse from you when I first came on this site and you are still pouring out the same BS you did some years ago, Its about time you started to grow as a person and stop calling other peoples arts that you admit you don't know fully, BS all the time, because they aren't.

Hi Rara I was a little disappointed in your choice of versions of the DDJ Back in 1997 when Li Erh came to me to teach his understandings I showed him many translations of what he was supposed to have written. D.C. Lau he said was the worst translation of them all! Of course I am biased in terms that what he taught me, but I think what I have given is far more understable than many version which make little sense. Still we all have our own perspectives and this is why many people like some versions over my transmission.

gone The reason for this brief history lesson is that it is vitally important to understand the history of China to truly understand the history of Chinese martial arts.htm

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