flowing hands

Now I've kept out of these hallowed halls of Chuang Tzu, but many years ago I spoke to Chuang Tzu (he is an Immortal), If I had more time it would be interesting to beg him to come and talk about the known writings that we have. Keep you posted.

Why waste your time? Tricks are for taking people in, creating great followings of deluded and fanatical 'students' and are against the Dao. Very few of these people are genuine and certainly many from China no longer have the teachings to get them to that level. One is better off giving the money to a charity that will do some good. If one has power, you have power there is no need for elaborate ceremony before performing the trick. As one can see there is little difference between this and a stage magician who builds up the atmosphere before deluding the audience.

This verse seems to come to an end of discussion

Best to leave out 'straw dogs' it is leading one astray from the real meaning of the chapter. The chapter is just talking about how the creative forces have made things and yet they don't seem to care about what has been created. This is misleading, because the Dao has no conscience, nor does a sage. The Dao has no rules so therefore a sage has none either. Therefore the Dao creates, but does not strive to rule or control, nor does a sage.

Hi Gerry No they certainly 'believed' for a whole tradition and system has evolved in virtually every cultural one can think of based on those beliefs. Mind you the major religions have done their best to overthrow what remains of those ancient systems. The elephant can be touched by all of us and it is the same experience, it is most definitely all the baggage that stops this process happening. "search and feel this spirit............ it is ever present and eternal"

Hi Gerry Humans originate from one source and it is only because of environmental and then social aspects that we appear different. I was trying to get you to step out of your obvious western philosophical perspective; it does not serve you well in understanding that which was written over 2,500 years ago. As an understanding and a means of comprehending the world around; Daoism's roots are firmly in the ancients peoples who believed in spirits and Immortals. Lei Erh did not write some old dry intellectual philosophy for us westerners to intellectualise about, he wrote about a living, vibrant energy and its roots and mysteries. He also wrote about the human condition and our interaction with others and other life. He wanted us to feel it, see it and live by those very simple rules, which means letting go of a lot of intellectual stuff and baggage.

Hi Gerry I was quite specific and I said 'Daoism', that is humans understanding of the world, energies and way things fit together. Which has evolved into a spiritual and practical understanding of the nature of all things and ourselves and our part in that process. So where did this come from?

Hi Gerry Let me ask you a simple and factual question. Where did Daoism originate from?

Hi Gerry I don't want to derail the thread, but to simply offer; as a shaman we communicate with life that has passed to the energy aspect of living, they now are just the 'spirit essence' so when I say he taught me, he did it in this way of being an energy entity talking to a mortal, although being an Immortal he is quite capable of taking on a physical form if necessary.

Hi Gerry, yes the Lao Tzu or as he is righty called, Lei Erh Xian Shi. Became a great Immortal of the spirit world 2,500 years ago.

HI Gerry I do not read Chinese and I am an English speaker and writer. Although I do know some Chinese that is pertinent to my practices. My version is not a translation, it was taught to me by Lao Tzu back in 1986/7. If you didn't know I am a traditional Shaman accepted and baptized in Malaysia and one of my teachers is Lao Tzu. So my version comes from the 'horses mouth'.

Where has this 'valley spirit' come from? How does it add up to the rest of the verse? It doesn't really, perhaps comes from the belief in the river spirits that roamed along the valley and woods. Offerings were often given to the 'valley spirit', as this was often a source of food and water. Lei Erh though taught me this: The root of Heaven and Earth lies in its spirit. Search and feel this spirit, for it ever present, the gateway to all mysteries. The spirit is the primordial Mother of the Ten Thousand Things (all things that exist) It is ever present and eternal. Now this makes sense and is indeed all about self cultivation to become an Immortal.

There have been many differing translations of the DDJ. Each has a different slant and meaning. Why should it be translated completely right? We can look at various chapters and compare them and how they differ and what we comprehend from each variation and was this meaning intended by Lao Tzu for instance? So put up some versions we could start off with verse one and analyse each verse and the various translations available. We can contribute to each lines meaning and see what we get from various members perspectives. It will be an interesting challenge, with some self understanding along the way perhaps! Over to you, I'm sure MH will enjoy this one

In this analogy, which I have read before, unfortunately the bellows do have a limit and are limited, so the analogy is a bit wayward in its meaning. Many translators are very much influenced by Christian teachings and so this creeps in to their own take of the verses. We must remember if anything, the DDJ will be heavily influenced by indigenous shamanism and nothing else.

Hi Gerry For some reason my browsers does not let me quote peoples words. This is one of the reasons why I started the thread about translating the DDJ right as Lao Tzu intended. If we look at what he taught me of his chapters there is no straw dogs for instance. I have a feeling that perhaps straw dogs were not used in his time or locality perhaps. Verse 5 Heaven and Earth are ruthless they see the ten thousand things (that's all life and material objects) as part of one whole The wise are therefore ruthless, for they see people as part of the same structure The space between Heaven and Earth is formless, but it has a form; for the ten thousand things all depend upon it. Like this space, the sage can use its formless qualities, for it yields to whatever or whoever uses it. Hold fast to this and remain at one.

No you are looking at Dao from a point of view of the known science of today from the minds exploration. The energy that has created all things is still the same as when the first energy was released. Today science divides things up and tries to intellectualise and discover the microscopic anatomy of things. But the Dao is inside us, for we are born of the universe and we return to it. To realise ourselves we must look within and then out. By pure and authentic teachings we can look and feel and realise the Dao within us and then see it outside us. Looking at atoms will not allow us to do this. In the vast majority of spiritual paths, there is great talk of the heart; the heart sutra in Buddhism etc. So to realise the Dao we must go through all sorts of life challenges and all sorts of self cultivation techniques. Then one day we can realise Dao. Sounds simple, but it certainly isn't!

Before language, before speech there was Dao and that's why Lao Tzu says to teach Dao with no words is best. The ancient masters said little but sung the songs in keeping with the Dao. If you don't live it, breathe it and realize it how can one know Dao? Is it not just empty words and misguided language to mislead one away from Dao. Dao is in the heart, it can be found by self cultivation and only that.

No what one experiences Dao today or in any other time will be the same as it was at the very beginning. Living Dao is the experience, philosophical Dao is just in books and eluded to and misguided by language.

Depends on what ones definition of the Dao is. Some think it is this and some that. Whether it is today a 1000 years to come or 1000 years in the past, the Dao is just the same, so are the creative forces that sustain all life. Knowing this is the wisdom of what Lao Tzu is talking about and how a wise person can see this and use this as a means of being wise in all of their actions.

No this is the wrong understanding of the verse. In living, all things have to suffer to survive as it is perceived by us. The forces of Heaven and earth have made us and yet we work like nuts, along with other life, to be able to survive. To us this might seem that these creative forces don't care and are "ruthless". But how can they care when they just exist as inert energies. A wise person therefore understands this and the Dao and will treat all things in the same way. These creative forces are 'empty', but all things depend upon them (they are given form in the shape of life etc.). To a wise person, they understand the value of the 'empty' or 'formless' qualities which have given life. Therefore a wise person applies the same principles.

I have grave doubts whether any of them are truly enlightened!

Hi Starjumper I watched your vid with interest. The first point I would make is you don't appear to use your breath very well and lower dan tien and if you did you would get better result IMO. To go through that thickness of wood, would require many years of iron palm training. You need to develop more 'power', once you have done this, you will see that anything that is completely immoveable will rebound your power back to you and you will fly backwards through the air! The one inch punch is fa jin, I used to demonstrate fa jin on heavy tables piled up behind each other and then using one hand and one or two fingers, move the whole lot. I stood not in a solid stance just relaxed and let the power go in my hands to the fingers.This of course is the low level of fa jin I demonstrated, but it proved a point that developing such power is possible. Afterwards I used to get everyone to try and push the tables with all their strength and using two hands and some of them could not move them at all. It shows there is no substitute for good training and a good teacher! I did the iron palm training for many years and started to get results, my best was a coconut break using the palm, broken with a small hole drilled in to let the juice out. But I let my training go down and I never progressed any further.

You will not find any enlightenment in scholarly books, you must use your heart and cultivate the self; become desire less,, truly empty, selfless at one with the Dao. In this state you may find a true understanding.

It is obvious to me that one of the treasures has got to be 'being at one with the Dao' etc. It stands to reason and one of the underlying points of the DDJ. Being merciful/compassionate must be another, for as Daoist we see all life equal, valued and sacred. By being efficient and economic with our resources means we can have the capacity to give and help others. The three treasures all coming from a cultivated heart.

I wonder whether it would be a good idea that information was available to see who had read each post? Is it possible?