Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan

Any symbol be it mundane or spiritual interpreted through intuitive experience of co-dependent origination/emptiness is liberated upon cognition anyway.

See, that's why i like you. You've got that eloquence going on that i might never accomplish in this lifetime assuming it's not my next-to last. if it is, then i've got a lot left to do lol eh plenty of time. just no definitive path.

It'll be a real challenge, but not impossible i think.

BESIDES: I dont think "The Dharma Bums" is nearly as catchy anyhow!

Whao... that was a total projection. That was not my intention. I was glaring at the fact that this happens to me as well, then I'm just letting it go in closed eye half smile meditation. That was my intention...

I think this is the only one that needs to be quoted.

Misinterpreted the meanings of those emoticons, they appeared more condescending than anything els ein the context of your words. Took 'em the wrong way, there was no "excuuuuuuuse me" moment like i thought

Well overall i have to say, buddhism is like the yin to the taoism yang they are both so very much alike and for much the same purpose, but take two slightly conflicting routes.

One of subservience to the teachings and one of subservience to diversified learning.

Buddhism promotes a "way" while taoism promotes "the way" is all there is, and the choice of weather or not to follow it's example or flee from it.

We are both rehashing each other and saying the same things, from opposite perspectives.

While the coin is in the air, you see heads and i see tails, even though we see the same coin, we're arguing over it needlessly!

I think this is much like Buddha's comparison of blind men and an elephant...

Truly, i think i should have quit 4 posts ago but i do so love a good debate, especially when my partner isnt being rude, callouse, and insulting! Im not used to responsible and rational debated It's quite refreshing, thank you!

NOW...

Can you tell me what exactly we've been arguing about?

Wow... i need to get a good sized hunk of that stuff and commission a 1 liter quartz flask!

I could practice some serious alchemy if i had a crystal flask... Glass can only handle so much before the contents become too unstable for the bottle to contain.

What do you call chemistry that preserves every reaction without letting any significant energy or matter escape?

The 4 noble truths include the 8 fold path, which includes right view. This means understanding mutual co-origination and emptiness as well as anatman or no-inherent-self or essence to anything.

*sigh* Do we really have to point you toward Zen?

Understanding the nature of "no-inherent-self" leads to the understanding that self is omnipresent in and of all things.

Your absolutistic perspective is holding you back from interdependence. you are on the outside looking in, "trying to get out"!

See this constitutes a belief in a real and true self and will to the entire cosmos. This does not hold up to the Buddhas scrutiny.

I think you misunderstand... i do not hold will to the cosmos, my will is a gift from the cosmos, which the cosmos can control if i allow it, however i cannot progress unless i allow it.

The secret to complete ownership and possession of the self and the will is to give them up to their origination.

No worries, it happens to me all the time.

Glaring at me and then smug. you're really trying my patience. i apologized, what more do you want?

In Buddhism the sacrifice just has to do with realizing no-self and offering all will and merits to the upliftment of others, either now or in the future by sewing seeds of liberation, even if it seems disagreeable in the now.

But do you know and understand WHY we offer will and merit to others?!?

Buddhism seems to be the only path that breaks down this, "spirit" into it's most subtle components and then finds that there is nothing absolute there to grasp at as well.

There is no purpose in breaking down all that has been constructed except to see what makes it work. Buddha's final conclusion is that "nothing" makes it work.

Like you said, no absolutes.

Giving up everything and gaining nothing, but passing it off as "liberation".

It is a challenge not all are even willing to embark upon, returning to the nothingness, but an inevitable process in the cycle of the way.

We all do it, just not always the way Buddha said to.

Experience goes on and on endlessly. In Buddha interpretation, Samsara is beginningless for an individual, but once Nirvana is realized, this is endless.

Reiteration?

im pretty sure that's all i said, simply without name dropping.

I used to believe as you. When I studied all the worlds religions vehemently without giving much time to the most volumes... Buddhism. I used to only read from here and there out of context from really bad translations.

 

Then I was schooled by an experienced scholar accredited from an Eastern school to a high degree. Then I met a great Rinpoche, and then I met many others after that both in dream and physically. Anyway... it's not that an individual cannot realize the same truth as the Buddha without being Buddhist. But... it's just that as a spiritual tradition, Buddhism offers the most clear explanations and methodology that appear on this planet with the most beings who have realized actual Buddhahood and not just intermediate bliss states of great power like in many other traditions.

I am certain buddhism is very helpful to a vast majority of people seeking liberation, but i must digress it is not the only way nor is it truly superior in any manner outside of personal uniqueness and opinion.

Regardless of what path works for you, there is no one true path except YOUR OWN one true path which is as unique to you as your DNA.

There is no infinite whole. Most of your assumptions arise from this very deep and subtle assumption.

Rather a blatant and stark reality. i cannot NOT see infinity. and i am not speaking merely of quantums, but of ALL.

Reality is limited by our perceptions to quantities and sensations, but there is so much more to it than our bodies are equipped to communicate to our minds. learning to see psst our limitations and what the purpose of our limitations is part of the Buddha's scrutiny, but it is not to be put into faith, but into practice...

In my own scrutiny of life, i find it arbitrarily arrogant to suggest there is not an unlimited and infinite expression of the way, even if not immediately "accessible" to us directly, we are still a part of the collective.

Not as an ontological essence though. Just as a way things move as things are, not as a thing behind the things which the TTC boasts of. The Tao as the mother of all things, and the beginning before things are... etc. This treatment of a WAY does not hold up to Buddhas scrutiny.

The dis-personalization which Buddha promoted is essential for spiritual understanding, but will inevitably lead into unnecessary deprivation which you are promoting as liberation. liberation, sure, of the self. there is nothing wrong with that, but it is not productive or beneficial to the spirit with NO self at all.

there is a significant and troublesome difference between reducing the the ego self, and abandoning the entire self as a whole.

There is nothing uncharted per say, only a new expression of the same.

From the perspective of the self, all experiences are uncharted. it takes until sufficient experiences have been endured before this truth can be accurately realized.

It's one thing to SAY it, but another thing entirely to WALK it.

Maybe, I don't know you that well and I don't know what you have studied and experienced.

Gee, thanks. i think?

Voice as in energy, the sound of your being.

uh huh..............? the sound of my being is much like the light of my being, a clear reflection (or echo) of my surroundings.

There doesn't seem to be in Taoism a clear example of what the WAY is? Not as clearly as it appears through the Dharma that is. Everything seems to be metaphorical, allegorical? Of course if you are karmically driven towards this path and have not experienced deeply any other path, you will not know, as you will have no memory of anything else to compare it to.

 

I do... as I remember lifetimes. But... just do well and be well! It seems that you do. Your future will be good, even after death.

Smug as a bug in a rug aintcha? i cannot deny that which you claim here of yourself, however your judgment of me is no means your authority or understanding.

You merely adhere to an indoctrinated way of perception, and have chosen to follow it. I am certain you have tested the teachings first hand and are not speaking outside of direct experience, regardless from what incarnation, however it amazes me how full you are of your own words to speak down upon me/us. that is much more telling of your "place" in life than your Buddhist class and title.

I've lived so many lives it would be nothing short of redundant to reflect on any one of them, and merely distracting from the path i must follow.

There is no omniversal singular goal in hand, not all incarnations and representations of the way exist for the same purpose, there is no beginning and there will be no end. Only the continual and perpetual cycle of cycling cycles. As such is the way.

food for thought; in training to endure:

Inconsistent training, intentionally throwing yourself off balance and out of stride.... for the purpose of endurance.

By consistently maintaining inconsistency in your practices, you get "thrown off", unbalanced, and this makes practice more difficult.

By making practice more difficult than necessary by maintaining inconsistent training, it becomes that much easier to maintain consistently in active practice.

It's all about exercising your mind, body, energy, and spirit.

granted. but since everything started over again, we have to evolve into humans again before you get this message.

I wish i knew what to wish for.

Granted, but nobody loves YOU, and nobody believes in you.

I feel bad now, i wish i didnt corrupt your wish!

I wouldnt know.... never heard that one before <.<

next time you're passing through salem slow down enough to pick up a certain drifter!

lol i have explained this to them...

I Love you man! what if it's not extinction but uniting of the psychic field and human consciousness or the bondage of past, present, and future as one "object" of time? what then?

I bet you a superb bowl of Ramen, with veggies, that something DOES happen.

Then you should learn about it as you don't seem to know much about what he taught except through some passing passages taken out of context.

Test my words against "his" four noble truths. are we in disagreement?

Then find a truly liberated lineage and get transmission and humble yourself under the guidance of a true master/disciple relationship. Otherwise it's all just lip service.

 

It's the same in martial arts if you truly wish to learn, you need transmission from a truly skilled lineage, and that energy supports.

 

Everyone travels the same path uniquely... of course. But, it takes a master of emptiness to see fully how and where another is bound from within and guide someone in a way that is particular to the individuals sensibilities.

The way itself transmits my education and experience. i have the utmost faith that the absolute master of all masters is my master and teacher... as well is all of ours, if we are so willing to submit to the ultimate will of The Way.

I apologize for the double post, but it told me i breached the quotation limit... heh... probably by one, but i clipped two just to be sure.

I further apologize for contributing to this argument, it's not one apt to be resolved by being understanding if only one of us is. Buti am simply fascinated by Vaj's passionate expression of Buddha's path over all other paths, even going so far as to portray natural paths as lacking of validity.

My final thoughts are that liberation is not singular or universally definable... the emperor is as liberated by labor as the laborer is by luxuries.

acquiring an "ultimate liberation" begets an "ultimate sacrifice", which would then be the sacrifice of physical liberation for spiritual liberation.

The spirit without the body is as stagnant as the body without the spirit.

"liberation" is merely the cessation of experience in this case.

With that, i end my participation in this argument.

Vaj, i hope that one day yo can see the diversity of reality is not as strict and limiting as there being "only one correct path to liberation."

To you, i place a pine tree in your hands

You will not get liberation by following your own habit patterns ingrained over countless lifetimes.

That much is generally stressed throughout nearly all philosophies.

You will only realize liberation by following the teachings and guidance of those already liberated. Those that see objectively because they are not attached to a self.

There is no "only" way to reach realization. unless that is you mean to say that you inherently follow the teachings and guidance upon the realization of true liberation, but that negates there being a direct following.

We would thus "follow" in the examples of liberated wisefolk even without experiencing their example. the most thorough way to test your experiences is to not rely on the teachings of those who have done it already, but learn first hand what the inherent lessons are.

One find's clarity through the example of the clear, not the muddled.

One gains experience from the muddled, and can find clairity upon reflecting.

You seek to deprive us of this by promoting Buddha's tautological way?

Group effort with group intention towards the same goal brings about a powerful movement of energy that clarifies if the goal is made clear through learning from those that exist as mirrors of the highest truths.

"if the goal is made clear through learning" is a little muddled... but i think i understand what you mean, that if the individual takes the time to reflect and learn from their experiences that clarity can be had. and we always have the choice to either acknowledge or deny the proper examples.

I do not deny Buddha's example of a correct path. But i do deny Buddha's example being the sole example, for it deprives the infinite whole of it's inherent diversity.

The cosmos only works one way.

A VERY diverse way, mind you.

Everything originates dependently and is empty of inherent existence. There is no inherent Tao, unless one thinks of the Tao as the way things flow mutually dependent upon each other without inherent beingness as some Chan Masters translate the Tao to mean. Not some non-conceptual essence that is the background for all things. This type of mysteriousness is a reflection of ignorance and a lack of investigation.

I think of the tao as the way of reality. what do you think of it as? and more importantly, why?

Isnt the WAY of the cosmos the "background for all things"?

You are engaging in doublespeak.

More muddled poetic nonsense. Lets understand how things work and see the particulars in how they are caused and how they effect endlessly through an awareness made open and pristine, clear and free through the practices handed down by the realized, not the ignorant.

expand your mind beyond 'handed down practice' and delve into uncharted territory brother!

Through studying the mind with the guidance of mind masters, you can understanding the particulars of how the mind functions and how the body comes into process from subtler dimensions.

Through the studying of the mind without the guidance of mind masters, i have come to understand these particulars jsut fine. Lacking an example of correct composure and self discipline only slows my progress, it does not annihilate my efforts or render them null or void.

It affirms my experiences when compared to the masters who have already succeeded.

You see how your self experience is created through endless karmic links, just as the individual self that creates the individual process is created as well by a mixture of inner and outer add infinitum. Study some Abhidharma! You can unravel the knotted seed of unconscious existence through the mind pointing of the truly liberated, not by ones own bound ignorance.

 

I just LOVE how you assume im ignorant. isnt that kind of ignorant of you?

 

 

As the mind unravels itself by going from body (dense) practice to voice (energy) practice to mind (nature of emptiness) directly, through the guidance of "right view" the first of the 8 fold noble path, you can see how it's not only meditation that reveals the truth of things. From physical, to energetic to emptiness, one realizes fullness... only by the guidance of the liberated, not the bound.

 

Due to my lacking of guidance i skipped the voice step entirely, not even aware that it was a step. perhaps it is a step holding me back, but i have FAITH that what is meant to be is what will be, that my experiences were never mine to control and that upon aligning with the will of the way, my power of choice has become restricted to the will of the way, and i have faith that the way will work to my ultimate liberation and enlightenment so long as i am putting forth an effort to earn them.

 

my efforts are everpresent.

WHERE TO FUCKING START.

Gee, i wonder.

Indignant and outraged, fueled with divine righteous anger and with no approachable means to address it!

To constantly and consistently witness the destruction and deprivation of feminine energy from our world!! I see more and more men becoming women, desperately struggling to preserve the great matriarchal flow of life!

it's been over 4000 years of this same illegitimate bastard game, this imaginary concept of gods among men, sovereigns and slaves. the dying concept of "the man of the house" is entering it's last ditch efforts to subdue and dominate the feminine energies and control them for the "progress" of the development of civilization and technology.

deprived of nature and the feminine, mechanical masculinity is a disease.

The masculine has been mutated into a dominatrix without regard or compassion for it's original duties to balance and protect the feminine.

Civilization sees itself as "God", almighty dominant ruler of nature, the elements, and human life.

Mutual dependency is necessary to move forward in life, and civilization attempts to dominate "access" to such mutual cooperation.

People operate in pairs or they do not operate at all, except in tasks designed for the paired benefit. But without a pair to benefit, no task can be embarked upon either with sufficient determination or success.

Get out while you still can.

P.S. i need rescue in salem, oregon. this place is a death trap.

in the great infinite mmorpg of life everyone's first reaction is "wtf? i can only make mine cry sleep eat and poop!"

It takes a lot of calibration to get used to piloting a physical vessel.

^ WOOH! POWER TO THE PEOPLE!!! ^ ^

It's a spiritual path with a specific goal, specific outcomes for the individual mind stream. I've never thought of it as a religion in the Western sense but a tradition of methods used specifically for the outcome of completely awakening one's self to the nature of everything.

Ah, yes, however by organizing specific practices, one deprives the self of the diversity of finding and engaging in the correct processes.

The "taught" and "learned" path are confused by organized effort.

Not every path teaches with the same results.

There is no "only one way" either.

The goal of shop class and Buddha Dharma are very different, unless one is using shop class in conjunction with dharma contemplation. But this would be in conjunction with vipassana, or Dzogchen practice of integrating the state of Rigpa with every day ordinary life.

naming things gives being to them and creates fear, why not just let these things-which-are-not-things simply be in their isness without name?

we have plenty enough words to describe our ways of life without naming them. is [why] your own name not sufficient?

Learn what the Buddha taught and realize it first. Even after the Buddha realized the nature of things, he still taught the Dharma in specific ways never wavering from the 4 marks which sets the Buddha Dharma as different from other spiritual traditions.

I do not disagree with what the Buddha taught

I find that everything that the buddha has taught, which i have read so far, has generally agreed with my personal experiences, although there are some differences of perception, for example a lotus to a pine tree. truly the symbols are no different, but our names, footsteps, paths, and strides are. they are as different as a lotus and a pine tree, and yet their symbols, practices, and fruits remain generally alike.

the purpose of life

to taste the fruits of wisdom

while munching popcorn...

While munching popcorn...

Hey, wait, i have some popcorn!

I think, let me check.

Okay so feel free to ignore that one

Thanks for your feedback Everybody.

 

I had a discussion with WallaMike on another thread about the frequencies:

* WiFi is at 2.4 GHz

* Cell phones at 0.9, 1.8 or 2.1 GHz

* Microwave ovens at 2.45 GHz

 

Oscillating fans were also suggested - a quick check also suggest similar frequencies.

 

If anybody gets the idea of trying to measure people running energy it would be interesting to hear what the readings suggest in that range

What frequency are dog whistles, generally?

I can hear them, and those things can hurt.

then its no matter

for one who has 'gone beyond'

to find a way home...

To find a way home...

It is the only true path...

The purpose of life...

The Tao of Natural Sovereignty:

You have no teacher but the innate self.

You have no guidance but reflection and recognition.

There are no authorities above or below you but the ultimate authority; you, and you alone are responsible for your well being, your placement, and your function and flow.

You cannot be taught the natural path, you must take that step and begin to learn it.

To master the mind and the body as omnipresent self, you cannot be shown what your unique anatomy needs, you cannot be taught what movements will help or hinder your body, you can only try and test your motions.

To begin, declare yourself sovereign and willingly aligned to the will of the ultimate authority, out loud.

A declaration cannot simply be spoken, but must be meant in order to take effect. Do not simply say these words, but mean them with the fullest intent to uphold your end of the contract.

If your contract is accepted, you are then and from then on the only person who can teach you until you give up your sovereign rights and allow others' words to hold authority over your actions.

Upon receiving sovereignty, I recommend immediate high intensity tension exercises in the form of T'ai Chi, Qi Gong, and Yoga, to find your true self and the nature of your movements.

This can be everything from stretching to running to pushups to handstands. you might or might not desire privacy for these steps.

just dont hurt yourself until you are ready to use pain as a tool for becoming stronger and recognize the true representatives that pain, pleasure, itching, and relaxation are.

funny thing about personal power, energy, the body, and evolution....

Extinction is a universal fallacy. matter can neither be created or destroyed, SO WHAT if THIS interpretation of our spirit is crushed and all but completely annihilated over the next hundred years? We will live through it and evolve from it.

The body is and always was temporary, but the experience is omnipresent.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orgone

silly notions, ludicrous completely. experiences which distract and dissettle the mind are merely training aides!

So naturally, smoking and keeping focus are an exercise that immunize you to the ills of the smoke.

However, as with all things, moderation and balance are necessary. just as all things are beneficial in moderation and harmful in excess, you msut learn what the excessive levels are and be mindful not to breach them, lest you lose control of your faculties and engage in "exercise" you might not be able to endure.

So let it be known that your habits and intakes will undoubtedly affect your perceptions and conduct, but maintaining control of your faculties will help immunize you of the ill effects and allow you to conduct yourself efficiently even under the influences.

Substances slow y/our spiritual and energy progress while they quicken the physical development.

Deprivation slows y/our physical and mental progress, while hastening your spiritual understanding.

On the contrary he spent 40 years preaching what he called Buddhadamma. He taught the 4 noble truths first, then the 8 fold noble path, he debated with scholars and yogi's of the time, he created an order of monks as well as rules of conduct within the monkhood. He also taught lay disciples and an order of conduct within the lay community. He taught so, so much including the foundations of the Mahayana while he was alive. He taught quite a lot more than breathing techniques. He did teach about the many levels of Jhana or Samadhi as well as dependent origination. He also taught vipassana.

Teaching us tools for the use on our own spiritual paths.

might as well call shop class constructionism.

More simply, I mean to say that Buddhism is not a religion, but a tool.

He is the only teacher that taught dependent origination and emptiness. You need to read some more about the history of what the Buddha taught.

 

He is also the only teacher that set out to establish the beginning of an entire spiritual tradition that would last beyond his physical life.

 

He was far more important of a teacher.

Regardless of what he taught, he was no more a messiah than anyone's 6'th grade math teachers, nor was what he taught an organized religious effort any more than shop class is.

Free yourself of attachments, of bondage, to "The" Buddha. It is what "The Buddha" taught after all.

Siddhartha was it? I am no good with names...

if he peddles, rather than wears lingerie, then i was close indeed if not then i need to meditate more

when did you realise that what you practice is more than what we percieve on this world?

 

 

when did you figure out that this path is what you will do the rest of your life?

 

some questions i ask of you

It is never realized, for that is fixed and unmoving, but constantly realizing, which is always moving, as ever we all are.